View Full Version : Why kill the Horde?
Loads of people here have posted about how they try to kill off the Horde as soon as it arrives.
Why?
They're just another faction.
You don't need to kill them off straight away.
You don't even need to kill them off at all if you're playing GA.
If you do want to kill them off, I find its quite a decent idea to let them expand somewhat first, since with more provinces to defend, they will spread their forces out a bit, making them easier to deal with.
They will also (depending on positioning) engage in a bit of attrition with other factions which is also advantageous.
Heck, if you don't need to get a hold of that land right away, you may even be able to make an alliance & make some trade money out of them
Are you Kipchak-Tatar? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
On expert, they come very powerful and if you dont hold them in check, they become the new HRE. Many of my campaigns went to closet because of the Hode navy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
king steven
11-14-2003, 12:17
now i know that we've bitched & moaned about this but mercs
is the solution if u want 2 get rid of early. IMO
As the byz you don't have a lot of choice - they have to go. They make very unreliable neighbors, so I like to neutralize them early on or risk lots of battles with their pesky HA's.
On the other hand GH can be a godsend if the byz are getting too large - they'll tie up some forces for a while anyway.
HopAlongBunny
11-14-2003, 12:48
I agree with arrse. I tend to ignore the Horde if possible. If I have to deal with them right away, fine; but I'd rather let them create opportunities http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Most people want them gone for the simple fact that you know what they're all about. They're Raiders. They want to take your land. Of course, it doesn't always work that way, they do sometimes settle in like another faction that has been there. But lets make it into a scenario.
Ignore all factors other than what I say, like dignity, your own feelings, etc. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Lets say you and 3 other guys are trying to date the same girl. If a new guy enters the picture, the rest of you are likely to band against him and want him out. Less competition is better for your chances to succeed, even if you have to temporarily ally with other enemies to get rid of a 3rd party. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The fact that you know they're coming doesn't help either. If you never knew it was going to happen, you might not react the same way.
71-hour Ahmed
11-14-2003, 18:55
They are barbarians. They rape, maim, slaughter and destroy.
Ergo de facto, kill them before they try to eat your mother.
Seriously, I do it because they:
a) are tough
b) are generally quite different from other civs
c) are easiest killed early before their full strength arives
d) bring paganism back and ruin my "one continent, one faith" strategy
e) are barbarians.
f)They sometimes divide their armies stupidly when they first emerge, like in one whole stack there are 20 trebuchets, in the other 24 groups of MHC etc.. etc.. this enables you to send 3 hobilars to trebuchets, spear-class units to MHC.. You enjoy and become extatic to the extent of laughing and falling off the chair...and fart without any comeback.
In my recent Polish campaign the GH provided an opportunity to take Kiev and Khazar without going to war with my allies the Hungarians. Alas, I arrived too late to help the noble Magyrs, but found their dachas on the Black Sea quite to my liking. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Doug-Thompson
11-14-2003, 20:07
The challenge. Beating the horde is a test of ability more than a gameplan necessity.
The_Emperor
11-14-2003, 20:42
I'm surprised no-one has posted the number one reason most people fight the Horde as soon as they come on...
Because its FUN http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
There's nothing like those massive battles against the horde and the sight of so many dead on the field in one sitting is breathtaking
Given how many factions you fight in MTW, only the Horde can give you massive battles on an epic scale. If you let the Horde establish themselves you lose that and they just become the same as any other faction you whack...
motorhead
11-14-2003, 22:02
I agree, it's lots of fun fighting massive GH battles. But, for me, it's become more fun to do as arrrse does and just let the horde go. Building up a massive army as 1230 nears just seems so contrived. I like letting them splash across the landscape and shake up the status quo. Even if i'm playing an eastern (non-russkie/novgorog) faction in high, i prefer to fight just defensive battles against the GH and eventually redirect their aggression away from my empire.
ShaiHulud
11-14-2003, 22:46
My last two games demonstrated that intimidating the Horde is possible. I deliberately avoided Khazar and Georgia to avoid contesting their arrival. However, I held Kiev in both games and the Horde, STUPIDLY, insisted on bridge attacks from Khazar into Kiev.
They could have taken Peroslavl from the Spanish (Yes the Spanish ) and then attacked into Kiev, thus avoiding a bridge battle. But, NO, they had to attack over and over across a bridge. After they'd lost about 50%, total, of their forces, they sat back and dithered, attacking no one, expanding no further than Ryazan.
More foolishness. They never attacked Georgia, also held by Spain with a very small force, nor Crimea, which I held with a stack of throw-aways since I expected it to fall easily.
The AI must set a very high priority on Kiev, too high, imo. It induces the Horde to suicide.
lancer63
11-15-2003, 00:14
Quote[/b] (71-hour Ahmed @ Nov. 14 2003,11:55)]They are barbarians. They rape, maim, slaughter and destroy.
Ergo de facto, kill them before they try to eat your mother.
Seriously, I do it because they:
a) are tough
b) are generally quite different from other civs
c) are easiest killed early before their full strength arives
d) bring paganism back and ruin my "one continent, one faith" strategy
e) are barbarians.
a) So am I. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
b) Good thing to have an alien faction, makes the game more ejoyable. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
c) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif I understood they already arrived in full strength. As I understand it they're so dreaded by most players because they get in one turn whatt takes us centuries to build.
d) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
e) There I agree 100% http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Now seriously, I'm playing the Egyptians and the mongols are my pals. Ever since those double crossing, two faced biz let every catholic crusade aimed at me, their ally of more than 100 years, through their lands and let them pester me every other year. They don't remember when I saved them from the Turks and the Hungarians.
Well now I let the mongols have their way with that filthy christian emperor and his acursed people. I've taken lesser Armenia from them (huge battle) and I'm sieging Rum and Armenia. The mongols have taken Georgia, Trebizond and are laying siege to Constantinople. They can have it. as long as they stop the crusaders. That way I can take the mediterranean isles at leisure. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
In most games the arrival of the Mongols is a major high point for me, with some of the longest (over 2 1/2 hours once) battles. Figure out how to beat the horse archers and you will be a better player.
They are different, unlike the Christians and in some ways the Muslims too. High fun factor.
Kill the Great Khan and his boys in the first round of battles and then watch the big stacks of (ex-Mongol) rebels tie up the Byz, Turks, Hungarians and Russians.
ichi
king steven
11-15-2003, 03:44
delete please admin
king steven
11-15-2003, 03:48
send missory to a far off land, bribe a rebel faction then
build up the region til u have a fortress
TheSilverKnight
11-15-2003, 03:50
I station archers behind the bridge, and then fire away while they're stupid little Mongol Horsemen come flying into my walls of swords and spears and shields. My flag always comes out flying.
The Wizard
11-15-2003, 18:56
Well, I've never decided to kill the horde right from the start because I hate long battles.
I also hate it when they don't follow my strategy: In my last game as the Byzantines, I put a huge army in Georgia to stop the oncoming tides of olive-colored livery attacking me, and instead concentrate on the Russians and factions further west, so that I could easily conquer them after they were weakened.
But nooooo, they just had to have Georgia. All they did was attack me, and no one else. -_-;
Anyhoo, how do you play the horde? With that -ian command, right? How do you get it? Could someone please tell?
Anybody who says in seriousness that the Mongols were only "barbarians" should reconsider their opinion of history. Anybody that has studied any kind of global, ie. non-eurocentric, history will attest that the Mongols, although possessed of great ferocity and barbarity in combat, became settled civilizations with advanced governmental systems. Furthermore, the Mongols were not some nameless horde. The Mongols split into several different factions, of which the Golden Horde is but one of. In fact, the Golden Horde actually converted to Islam later in history. The peace enforced by the Mongols throughout Eurasia fostered great technological diffusion and created a greater sense of regional identity, as well as revitalizing ancient trading centers and starting new ones. The Mongols were very much a cultured society, the Khans were especially obssessed over astrological and mathematical technology and created many observation posts for the former. The Mongols weren't some faceless horde of blood slavering barbarians, although they could often fight like it
well if you are playing russia it is a necessity to wipe the hoarde as soon as they come because if you don't you lose Muscovy, Novgorod and Kiev the three provinces russia needs and the affect of GH on you is massive you lose all your income all your troops die and you got no money to rebuild them say hello to death (or daneism) for russia thanks dessa
Leet Eriksson
11-16-2003, 08:55
Yeah,the mongols are not really barbaric,if you check out samarkand you'll see quite the contrary to what you beleived a barbaric race.
Quote[/b] ]c) are easiest killed early before their full strength arivesBullshit. (as previously pointed out in less strident terms)
Quote[/b] ]if you are playing russia it is a necessity to wipe the hoarde as soon as they come because if you don't you lose Muscovy, Novgorod and Kiev the three provinces russia needsAlso bullshit.
There is a nice handy river that runs right up there & as long as you can hold the bridges & Pereyastavl, then you're fine (as I have just demonstrated with my current Polish campaign) & after 2-4 such battles the horde will be substantially weakened & lose its impetus to seriously strike out.
I see it as wastefully boring & cheezy to just have a huge army sitting on Khazar waiting.
2+ hours of chasing reinforcements all the way off the field even though the Khan is dead & then having to scramble to reform for the next wave is not really what I call fun. Its a huge boring slog.
By letting the Horde establish, retreating as necessary & holding where later when they try to expand, you get to fight a greater number of big battles but without descending into the bog of reinforcment chasing ad infinitum.
Remember, when you have that huge battle in Khazar, most of the horde just retreats & dissapears.
If you fight later, you have to actually kill far more over many battles = more horde killing action = more fun battles.
& really if you aren't even seriously in the region, why bother at all?
I'm pleased to see that there are some at least who agree with me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
71-hour Ahmed
11-16-2003, 22:41
about the "bullshit"
I've had them coming in two different groups, so I kill the first one and the others aren't so annoying as they are alone. The first group is generally aiming at Kiev, the second comes in Turkey, aiming at Egypt.
I don't sit in ambush for them but I don't ignore them either. After all, I know they will come eventually.
I generally try to hold one area and let the others go, so I can keep them from becoming large. If they get established in both areas as I'm generally quite weak in my rear (and I hold all that area by then) I could lose a lot hence the early kill.
So there. Bleurgh.
As for not being barbarians - I disagree. The presence of morality is the definition I have - even by medieval standards the eraly mongols (prior to integration /absorption) are moral vacuums in their war strategy. After that sure they became civilised - but they weren't quite the same after that.
The Storyteller
11-17-2003, 08:49
I don't understand what morality you refer to. The Mongolians were ferocious fighters, yes, but the land they conquered was ruled well. During wars, yes, entire villages were sometimes put to the sword. After wars (and I mean after the entire faction was conquered), the Mongolians generally kept peace. Which is exactly what the Europeans did as well. What sort of moral vaccuum is there? The English had a complete moral vaccuum as well - peasants killing nobles? Disgusting Barbaric But acceptable nonetheless.
king steven
11-18-2003, 14:37
what year do the horde arrive?
TheSilverKnight
11-18-2003, 14:52
1230 A.D.
lancer63
11-18-2003, 17:13
Quote[/b] (TheSilverKnight @ Nov. 18 2003,07:52)]1230 A.D.
10:00 a.m. on a tuesday. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Bob the Insane
11-20-2003, 14:22
I think people get to upset by the word Barbarian...
It is essentially an evolved version of the Roman word for foreigner...
So everyone is a barbarian to someone...
Europeans would call the Mongols 'Barbarians' and Mongols probably had a similar term for Europeans...
Besides, I always thought of the term Barbarian as a compliment, I mean look at history.. Who always wins and setups up the empire, certainly is not the nice, quiet studious, historical figures.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Revenant69
11-20-2003, 18:13
Ahhhh, The Golden Horde....... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Dont we all love them?
But seriously, I fought them in 2 different ways. In most of my campaigns when i played an Eastern faction - I could not allow the "Barbarians" to arrive and become a power to recon with. And so I fought many a battle in Khazar with thousands of my troops versus tens of thousands of Mongols. Yes the battles are long, but they are also fun (to me) and I dont care what everyone else says about the boredom, because I play the game differently and I enjoy the epic battles.
However, in my recent French GA campaign, something different happened. Before the Horde arrived I crusaded my way into the Holy Land and stretched my Eastern Arm of France to Byzantine Empire. Byzantines were second to no AI faction - they controlled a vast seaborne Empire (Denmark, Portugal, Corsica, Sardinia, Algeria, Tunisia +much much more). Their armies had the number of cavalry unequal in all the world, not even by me. Their trade network stretched from Blacks Sea to Baltic Sea, as mine did. They were my biggest trading partners. The peace between our two nations lasted for over 150 years.
But the Shadow grew in the East. And my eyes turned towards it. I could not confront the full might of Byzantine numerous armies, for I would have lost what I fought so hard to gain (The Holy Land). So the moment the Mongols arrived in Khazar with their main force (and in Volga - Bulgaria with another 4000 troops) I seized the opportunity and attacked the Byzantines. Being crushed between hammer and anvil the Byzantines lost a lot of their holdings and eventually were cornered in Russia (they held most of russian territories though).
Thus came the dominion of the Horde. For many years it stretched its arm and ensnared the leftover Byzantines like a snake ensnares its meal. For nearly 100 years they were allowed to prosper and build and conquer. But always was I vigilant and kept watch on the borders with them. Eventually their power has far surpassed that of the former greatness of the Byzantine Empire.
And so the trumpets called to war once more. French knights clad in best armor that Europe could produce rode into battle...........They fought valiantly and retook Khazar from the Horde. Feraing for being isolated from the green pastures of their ancestral steppe lands in the Far East, the Horde attacked Khazar with all their might. And might they had unequaled in all free world. Their troops left their fortresses and citadels that they have built (yes I am not kidding you - every province they conquered had at least a citadel built there) and joined in the massive battle of Khazar.
But the Horde could not cross the bridges. For years they have tried to retake Khazar and every time they did so, their Khan fell on the field of battle.
Thus goeth the story of the Horde, trapped yet powerful, defeated yet strong......
PS Sorry for the long post, but I just thought that not killing or killing the Horde both have their fun moments
Cheers m8s http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Teutonic Knight
11-20-2003, 20:04
Quote[/b] (71-hour Ahmed @ Nov. 14 2003,11:55)]d) bring paganism back and ruin my "one continent, one faith" strategy
lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
king steven
11-20-2003, 21:37
i ask cos i've just got my arse kicked
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Red Harvest
11-21-2003, 05:22
Don't know what game Arrsse is playing, but in Expert the Horde heads right after me with huge stacks as soon as we share a border. So I kill them as soon as I can. I'll let them rampage if they leave me alone, but they rarely allow that.
Teutonic Knight
11-22-2003, 01:08
Quote[/b] (Bob the Insane @ Nov. 20 2003,07:22)]I think people get to upset by the word Barbarian...
It is essentially an evolved version of the Roman word for foreigner...
So everyone is a barbarian to someone...
Europeans would call the Mongols 'Barbarians' and Mongols probably had a similar term for Europeans...
Besides, I always thought of the term Barbarian as a compliment, I mean look at history.. Who always wins and setups up the empire, certainly is not the nice, quiet studious, historical figures.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
actually the term just evolved from barbar "bearded" because the Roman men insisted on being clean-shaven they called their bearded neighbors "barbarians" or "bearded-ones"
in fact in ancient it was not considered derogatory to call someone a "barbarian" it just meant that they weren't Graeco/Roman citizens.
RisingSun
11-22-2003, 02:56
Actually, wasn't it a Greek word, describing the language of non Greco-Roman peoples, which sounded like "bar-bar" to them?
holding kiev is easy holding volga bulgaria and smolensk and ryanzan and peryslavl and lithuania is not (especially lithuania they are always hard to hold on to).STOP
thanks dessa
two things i think barbarian came from the laungauge barrier and it was an insult it meant you were primative violent and like an animal.STOP
thanks dessa
The Wizard
11-22-2003, 13:53
The Greeks used the word "barbaroi" to refer to those peoples that were not Greek.
Teutonic Knight
11-23-2003, 22:53
Quote[/b] (dessa14 @ Nov. 21 2003,22:19)]two things i think barbarian came from the laungauge barrier and it was an insult it meant you were primative violent and like an animal.STOP
thanks dessa
the insulting meaning of the word is a modern invention, it was always used in Ancient times just to mean you weren't a Graeco/Roman.
TheSilverKnight
11-24-2003, 04:19
sometimes, however, I like to leave them alone because they have the potential to seriously whip me. *cowers in a corner from the monstrous mongolian monster* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
biguth dickuth
11-24-2003, 21:12
Quote[/b] ]
actually the term just evolved from barbar "bearded" because the Roman men insisted on being clean-shaven they called their bearded neighbors "barbarians" or "bearded-ones"
in fact in ancient it was not considered derogatory to call someone a "barbarian" it just meant that they weren't Graeco/Roman citizens.
From what i know the word barbarian evolved from the greek "barbaros". It comes from "bar-bar" which is what non-greek languages would sound like to ancient greeks. Therefore, the word initially meant "the one who speaks a foreign (non-greek) language". Later, it became a somewhat snobish characterization that the greeks used, refering to people of a "lesser" (in their opinion) culture. It has more or less kept that meaning since then.
Regarding the mongols, i believe they were certainly fierce (like any nomadic people) and tough, but they sure did have some civilization of their own. And you can't say they were immoral; they just had a diferrent sense of morality than the europeans did. So, calling them barbarians would perhaps be a little unfair...
Derfal Cadarn
11-25-2003, 01:40
Well I think the poor old mongols get a bad press
Ok I'll happily admit that when playing as the english and ive taken most of the north western area of the map, with probably the poles and the Byz about, and the horde arrive i get slightly troubled, however, i always seem to have an ageing princess sitting around and doing nothing, so off she goes and marries the khan, and I have to say out of all the factions in the game, the Mongols appear to be the most loyal. They have never attacked me whilst in alliance with me, I've always been the one to break the alliance. All those other factions that have refused my marriages to their princesses come out of the woods and want to marry into my family. admittably im only playing on normal level but no other faction has any compulsion about attackign me when im allied to them, only the mongols stay loyal and it helps me concentrate on taking out the spanish and the almo's, the french and the hre already having been discounted with. The other factions normally do sufficient damage to stop the mongols expanding to where it has become a concern, and the mongols normally start sufficient rebellions within other factions provinces for me to poach.
and yes in case you havent guessed im not an aggressive player if you dont attack me then i wont attack you, until i have the advantage of course :-), and until then I'll set the trip wire and the rabbit traps and continue to poach :-)
Omar Mena
11-25-2003, 04:28
Quote[/b] (Derfal Cadarn @ Nov. 24 2003,18:40)]Well I think the poor old mongols get a bad press
Ok I'll happily admit that when playing as the english and ive taken most of the north western area of the map, with probably the poles and the Byz about, and the horde arrive i get slightly troubled, however, i always seem to have an ageing princess sitting around and doing nothing, so off she goes and marries the khan, and I have to say out of all the factions in the game, the Mongols appear to be the most loyal. They have never attacked me whilst in alliance with me, I've always been the one to break the alliance. All those other factions that have refused my marriages to their princesses come out of the woods and want to marry into my family. admittably im only playing on normal level but no other faction has any compulsion about attackign me when im allied to them, only the mongols stay loyal and it helps me concentrate on taking out the spanish and the almo's, the french and the hre already having been discounted with. The other factions normally do sufficient damage to stop the mongols expanding to where it has become a concern, and the mongols normally start sufficient rebellions within other factions provinces for me to poach.
I totally agree with you Throughout all my years of campaigning, the Mongols have been my invasion m8s. I'm usually an Islam kingdom so I dont have any princesses but I always train emissaries(sp?) before-hand to get ready to rush the Horde with endless alliances. After their allied with me they always try to get troops into a battle that I am in to try and help me. That MHC is damn useful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif I have the mongols' back and they have mine. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I try to NEVER do battle with them and just play out the rest of my GA campaign without attacking them.
They've betrayed me almost every time, so I guess experiences differ.
By the time they arrive my troops are usually high valor and loaded with the latest technology. Why fear them? I treat them as I do everyone else. When our borders eventually meet I invade. Of course they make a convienent place to point my crusades.
I normally play on Hard but lately I've been playing Normal for the increased diplomacy effectiveness.
I have never played a full campaign on Expert.
From my second Shogun campaign, I've played Hard.
Expert is just not fun.
Diplomacy never works, neighbours just declare war & you quickly wind up with a map full of implacable enemies & invariably a massive shortage of money & troops.
I guess I'm a fairly passive player in that I tend to just build up border forces & wait till my neighbour either has a civil war or attacks me & suffers a major defeat before I expand.
This is not to say that I never make attacks against allies because I do, just rarely at the first opportunity & I generally prefer the defensive option.
I guess I just prefer to build nice, tidy, high tech, border armies, have aliances, big well developed cities, fleets so I can trade, good leaders who earn the respect of their citizens rather than terrifying them into obedience and stuff like that rather than going around rampaging & pillaging.
Anyway, my point of this thread is basically that I see the Horde as being more or less like a Reemerging faction.
Do you guys go around the map taking out all the emerging factions in the first turn just because they are emerging?
Sure if they are emerging on your land maybe, but even then, when they are a big reemergence, I'll often try to make peace with them so I can trade rather than fight them immediately.
Brutal DLX
11-27-2003, 09:59
Good thinking.
The Wizard
11-27-2003, 14:07
Well, it is true that it is very annoying that diplomacy tends to not work at all on expert... but I find expert playable, and fun actually, but not the battles. The +4 morale bonus just makes the battles less fun IMO. =/
Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Nov. 20 2003,22:22)]Don't know what game Arrsse is playing, but in Expert the Horde heads right after me with huge stacks as soon as we share a border. So I kill them as soon as I can. I'll let them rampage if they leave me alone, but they rarely allow that.
This is my experience as well - whatever province you have in the east, the GH make a beeline for it, and repeatedly attack ad nauseum -
My current game, as the Danes, I held Lithuania, so the GH stormed almost all of their troops from Khazar into Kiev, and then launched at me in Lithuania.
The first battle was fun - 4500 GH attackers, against my 2000, both sides led by a 4 star general - I beat them off, getting a pretty good casualty ratio in the end, but it was actually one of those rare battles where it really could have gone either way - a couple of my units got totally obliterated, and for a while the centre of my line wavered and nearly collapsed under the battering it was getting from the Mongol Heavy Cav - close battle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But after that it just got annoying - 2 years later the Horde attacked with 3500 men, led by a 3 star general, whilst I'd replenished and re-inforced my own troops - easy win. The year after they attacked with 3000 men led by a 2 star general, and the year after that, another 3000 men led by a 1 star general (whilst my general in Lithuania had risen to 5 star & skilled defender http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )
After another break of a couple of years, they attacked yet again - this time with about 1500men who never even got as far as my front lines - I cut down a few with my arbs and archers, and the rest turned around and headed home - I fully expect them to attack again when I continue playing tonight - launching the fearsome strike of all the men they have left to spare for an attack - ie: The Khan, his 8 year old daughter, and their dog - Colin http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
What makes this particularly frustrating is that the whole time they've been commiting hari-kiri in my province, there are loads of easy targets around for them to expand into - they could have set themselves up as a major power for years to come ( and mixed everything up rather nicely ), but they're going to have barely enough troops left to garrison the few provinces they grabbed in their rush to attack me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
lancer63
12-01-2003, 22:33
Quote[/b] (Revenant69 @ Nov. 20 2003,11:13)]But the Horde could not cross the bridges. For years they have tried to retake Khazar and every time they did so, their Khan fell on the field of battle.
There are bridges in Khazar? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I've seen them in Kiev and the other province to the north east of it. But in Khazar I've only found flat land and the scattered forrest. Perfect for steppe warfare btw.
Major Robert Dump
12-02-2003, 01:19
I'm playing a Sicilian glorious achievement game where I am allied with the Monegels: THEY MAKE GREAT FRIENDS.
I expanded my empire early game enough to be able to build up and hold my lands without the need to conquer new ones. Its is now 1280 and I willc certainly win. But I like to play this as an empire building campaign as it is more fun. I have no interest in the area the Mongels wish to conquer, as they are mainly interested in the Northern portion of the map and the old turkish empire.
Allied with the Mongels and the Pope. Ahh...its been a week since i played, and now i want to again talking about it cyas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I dont really hate the Mongols, they can be great to weaken other factions. In my current campaign with the Sicilians, I waited for them to arrive and weaken the HRE, so I could get into central Europe from my Arabian regions, and they arrived in Armenia, which is my province. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
but i once played a nice german campaign where I had a lot of money and bribed nearly their whole army, can be quite useful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Game Over!!!
12-04-2003, 21:56
Just like Husar said; bribe their armies.
Playing Byz empire and its around 1300...Horde is long gone but I still have a full stack of Mongol Heavy Cavalry, Mongol Archers, and Mongol Warriors.
3 Armies worth of horde units make game playing really fun. I find the MHC great flankers with superb defending skills. Get behind the enemy and wait til there pushed against the MHC. Those MHA are even better skirmishers then I imagined and the warriors melee pretty well after they've spent their load (of arrows). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif
lancer63
12-04-2003, 22:47
Yes, bribed mongol units give wings to your armies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
R'as al Ghul
02-09-2004, 15:16
Well, I'm just playing Russ/Xpert/High and simply forgot the mongols or thought their appearance was about 1260 (gunpowder, right?).
Anyway I had Chazar and had to leave it because of the 16.000 plus army. Anyway when they tried to get Wolga-Bulgaria I defeated them at he bridge and killed their Khan. Effect=almost none. Mongols disappeared as a faction but nearly the whole force became rebells, attacking me again in the next turns. I don't have any money to bribe some of them so it will be tough fighting to get Chazar back.
In my other Campaign Turkish/xpert/early I cannot wait for them to arrive. I have over 250.000 Florins and a whole network of agents of all kinds just waiting for them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
When they finally will arrive I plan to buy/bribe them all after my 6* star syrian assassin Massoud Khan will hopefully kill the Khan as he did with the Almohad Khalif and his heirs.
After that I will directly ship them to Northern Spain or further to prepare those Catholics for the wrath of Sultan Suleyman.
No prisoners
Anyone tried that?
Cheers
I never found the horde that hard ( playing on expert )
They don't have any decent infantry unit, the only thing you need are some good spears, polearms or pikes to defend against their heavy cav.
That plus many many good archers and arbelasters to take out their horse archers. ( put your reserve armies full of bows, arbelasts and some spears/pikes/polearms )
I see no need for light pursuit cavalry against the horde as they tend to keep fighting untill they loose most of their men, and they use the false defeat where they lure you into pursuit.
Normal halberdiers can take out several units of their heavy cavalry without lossing much soldiers theirselves.
With the English the horde is rather easy to deal with, use armies of billmen and longbowmen, just have to use the right units to deal with the golden horde http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I play the English mostly, and GA. Most times I take a Crusader tact and try to hold everything from Egypt northeast to the three Arid zones: Lesser Armenia, Rum, and Armenia I think. If I'm really good, by the time the Horde arrives I have Georgia and Constantinople: two easily defended fronts.
I also focus nearly all the construction in England on military bulidings, focusing those of my French holdings on economic. This way, by the time the Horde shows up, I'm fielding +2 Valor and +3 Armor Longbowmen and Billmen out the wazoo. It is also my preference to fight with unlimited ammo. When I used to use limited ammo all it meant was I had to stockpile bunches of extra archer units in my frontline provinces, so I figured "Why bother?" Anyway, against such an army (Longbowmen + Billmen), especially in Georgia with its mountain ranges, the Horde just get's chewed up.
Though I totally agree those damn Horse Archers are the biggest pain in the keyster.
Personally I have never really had much of a problem with the horde. Most of the time I usually count on their arrival to help me. I have two campaigns going at the moment. In my HRE campaign I am basically completely surrounded by the Egyptians by 1230, they have taken most of the Iberian peninsula and Europe on either side of me. And as they have a much stronger navy than I do I did not wish to go to war with them. So they were building up around me in what I assumed would be the killstroke and lo and behold the GH arrive. Well it forces the Egyptians to pull their forces back and get into a nasty little war with the GH, which allowed me to build up a little more and take the rest of europe with much worry from them. I also have an Argonese campaign going and used the GH arrival to my advantage against the Turks and Byz. I have taken Constantinople, Antioch, Edessa, Rum and Greece. Instead of dealing with me they are forced to fight the horde back as they expand into Turkey and Eastern Europe. So they've been mostly good for me. I have had 2 Russian campaigns wiped out by them but overall I have used thier arrival to my advantage.
Why? Because Khazar is one of the richest provinces in the game (trade income + farm income) and allows you to train Steppe Heavy Cavalry, which is a very powerful horse archer unit. I conquer Khazar early (when the faction I play is nearby) and by the time the Mongols arrive, it's very developed. I primarily play early so Khazar is very valuable to me.
If the faction I'm playing is far away, I could care less. The Mongols are dumb, though, and their conquered provinces rebel often. When I played the Spanish, they actually left the Byzantines stronger because of all the pro-Byzantine rebellions they made.
Random Ronin
02-11-2004, 03:44
The real Golden Horde would have been the most dangerous thing in this game, as they were pretty invincible. They slaughtered the knights of Kiev, with barely a loss to themselves, because they never stood still or got close enough for the knights to fight back, so the knights all got punched full of arrows, making a gruesome porcupine.
In this game, they are barely a little taste of their real capabilities, but even then, they can be deadly and a god-send. One occasion, I saw the Polish massing a huge army to seize my German territories, and due to the carnage of a recent battle in Turkey, I had no troops to send to reinforce my meager garrisons, so I braced for a long brutal campaign to retake all the land I expected to lose, when out of nowhere, the Russians screamed MONGOLS, then got slaughtered, sending the Polish into a panic, withdrawing all their troops to the east, where they got slaughtered. So ended the threat of Poland, allowing me to fortify my Germanic borders. Poland eventually persevered over the Mongols, with the help of other Easterners, plus a well timed assassination by me of the best Mongol general the evening before the battle, leading to a Polish victory and rejuvenation, but they now faced 3 times the troops, nearly 2 times the loyalty of my provinces, and a long line of castles to delay their offensives. should they have attempted a new offensive against my Germans. Vive La France
But on other occasions, they are god's wrath, for the only time I lost a king in battle was to the Mongol horde, who slaughtered him and 1700 good soldiers near Warsaw. The siege was short, the battle fierce, and despite a valiant defense, the castle fell with all hands severed. Bloody Mongols...
As an unofficial ally, they are valuable as a anti-orthodox faction team, and if you are lucky, you get at least one grand battle out of them after they done their job of making the annoying Slavs go home and be serfs, rather than trying to conquer Europe.
Crimson Castle
02-11-2004, 05:03
Will CA develop a Mongolian horse archer unit that can fire arrows whilst on the move?
Game Over!!!
02-11-2004, 15:09
Mongolian Horse Archer firing while moving? Probably not...but in Rome: Total War you WILL be able to pick a faction that will be able to do that...the Parthian Shot is what's its called. (sp) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
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