View Full Version : Germany wins the WW2
Book suggestion.....by ME.
What if? by various authors.
The book is an excellent source written by leading military historians on what would have been the other way.
The chapters of the book include:
-Persians conquer Greece
-Alexander's interrupted journey 334 B.C.
-The Mediterranean Islamic Lake AD732
-Mongols conquer Europe
-Hernando Cortez fails
-Spain Invades England 1588
-Trapping Geoge Washington
-German Victory 1914
-Hitler's desert storm
-Japan's Pacific victory
-Two Chinas on the mainland 1950
I read the book and suggest it to everyone. It is even frightening.
Take a look (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425176428/qid=1069090311/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-2529611-5604104?v=glance&s=books)
Jacque Schtrapp
11-17-2003, 19:30
Yikes. Those things would most definitely change the face of the planet today. Just imagine if the Persians had conquered Greece. What would have happened to the fledgling Romans? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
ShadesPanther
11-17-2003, 21:00
Actually the first one is if the Assyrians captured Jerusalem and if the same thing would happen that happend in Israel. There would be no Christianity and no Islam http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
king steven
11-17-2003, 22:37
what if JFK had NOT be assinated?
what if america had joined germany?
what if buddy rogers had NOT be the world champion?
come my popluce give us your what ifs.
Kongamato
11-17-2003, 23:07
I'd like to know what would have happened to Nazi Germany if Hitler had been assassinated by his top generals. What would the new leader have done with the Jews and the war?
DemonArchangel
11-17-2003, 23:43
What if jesus was never born?
Jacque Schtrapp
11-18-2003, 00:06
Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Nov. 17 2003,16:43)]What if jesus was never born?
Well then you would be jewish. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
motorhead
11-18-2003, 01:05
This reminds me of some old 'saturday night live' skits where they asked:
What if Superman were German? (circa WWII)
What if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly? (also circa WWII)
discuss http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Actuly you wouldnt be Jewish Schtrapp http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif because the Romans would have made sure even if jesus wasnt born http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif that gives some though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Lol as for the Jews for WW2 well is Hitler was succesfuly Assasinated, even the new leader would have finished the work, because Hitler would have made sure he has a good succesor
Speaking in theory that is...
hers also a though what would have happend if in the USD debate on what official language to speak, they chose to speak German insead of English, which was did actuly happen lol, kind of wierd that would have been
Brutal DLX
11-18-2003, 10:34
Mind you, that is utter crap, Imagowa. Those generals tried to assassinate Hitler because they realised along which bad road he took his people. It is certain that they would have tried to negotiate an armistice and of course stopped the evil that was going on in the concentration camps. There wouldn't be a new leader but a military junta until a new government would have been installed.
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Nov. 18 2003,04:34)]Mind you, that is utter crap, Imagowa. Those generals tried to assassinate Hitler because they realised along which bad road he took his people. It is certain that they would have tried to negotiate an armistice and of course stopped the evil that was going on in the concentration camps. There wouldn't be a new leader but a military junta until a new government would have been installed.
Wasn't there some talk about making Rommel the head of the committee that would have replaced Hitler? The whole purpose of the assination attempt was to end the war before anymore damage was done to Germany. Germany would have been better off if the plot had succeeded because the Western Allies certainly wouldn't have let the communists take as much as they did and the Germans would have had the opportunity to end the holocaust themselves, thereby proving that they weren't all bloodthirsty genocidal bastards. On the other hand if they had let the holocaust proceed apace they would have seemed even worse than they did in reality because they had the chance to end it and didn't.
I wonder if the Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II lived one more year. He was preparing for the conquest of Rome and Italy. Because of desperation Rome was evacuated, but Mehmet died and the plan was abandoned.
Man that would give Pope a message. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Gregoshi
11-18-2003, 17:44
Brutal, I need a clarification of language. Does:
Quote[/b] ]Mind you, that is utter crap, Imagowa.
translate to:
Quote[/b] ]Say there Imagowa, good chap, I'm afraid I will have to take a contrary position on your statement.
I'm just wondering because confusing language such as that statement tends to obscure the excellent point you made following it.
Dhepee, as I recall, Rommel was approached and reluctantly agreed to go along with the plot. However, at the time he was suffering from some illness which seemed to sap his energy for playing all the political mumbo jumbo.
Hitler had Goering as his second in command, but Goering and Hitler's other henchmen were too weak or nutcases to take over if the assassination had succeeded. Hitler held things together through his amazing charisma, overpowering will and fear. The army had the means to take control but needed a national hero like Rommel to hold it together.
As always, I could be wrong. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I'm really stretching my memory on this issue.
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Nov. 18 2003,11:44)]Dhepee, as I recall, Rommel was approached and reluctantly agreed to go along with the plot. However, at the time he was suffering from some illness which seemed to sap his energy for playing all the political mumbo jumbo.
Hitler had Goering as his second in command, but Goering and Hitler's other henchmen were too weak or nutcases to take over if the assassination had succeeded. Hitler held things together through his amazing charisma, overpowering will and fear. The army had the means to take control but needed a national hero like Rommel to hold it together.
As always, I could be wrong. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I'm really stretching my memory on this issue.
You're right Gregoshi, he was recovering from a serious illness. He became ill during the North Africa campaign and he never really got over it. He was also recovering from injuries suffered when his staff car was strafed.
He did only reluctantly, if at all, go along with the plot. He was always ambivalent about Hitler and Nazism and was more of a German Nationalist. There was always a split between the Nazi Officers and the old school German officers, who were not Nazis or who only joined the party after membership was reopened and it was clear that a Swastika pin could get a man very far in the civil or military world. Many of these later members were not very ardent, some were plotters against Hitler, and only a few were prosecuted for war crimes.
The old school officers went along with Hitler because they supported the reassertion of German power in Europe, but not because they specifically subscribed all of the tenets of Nazism, Rommel fell into this group. It was well known that the Americans and British favored Rommel as the next leader for Germany (either upon the death of Hitler or at the German surrender), because he combined the qualities of leadership with a relative lack of taint of Nazi association (I say relative because he was a Field Marshall, but he was not involved the holocaust). The fact that this may have been so well known may have actually been his downfall after the Von Stauffenberg plot failed.
The combination of the fact that the allies liked him politically, that he disagreed with Hitler over military matters (in North Africa he refused to send Free Polish soldiers that he captured back to Europe while keeping Brits, Aussies, and Frenchmen in Tunisian pow camps because he knew what would happen to a Pole once sent to Europe, and he also disagreed heavily with Hitler on matters of strategy, it probably didn't help that he was right and Hitler wrong), and he knew some of the plotters socially and through the military.
No one can say for sure if he agreed to take control of the provisional government after the coup. He was implicated by men who were tortured and whose families were threatened, making their testimony relatively worthless. Goerring would not have been allowed to take control after the coup because he was too closely allied with Hitler and he was nuts. People probably went along with Goerring being second in command because it was best to agree with Hitler and had no plans of honoring it should Hitler die, as Goerring was widely regarded as a nuts. No one knows what Rommel said or confessed to because he took the option of suicide and he never left any kind of evidence trail one way or the other. It is all circumstantial.
It is most likely, according the goals of Von Stauffenberg, that after the death of Hitler and the seizure of power that Rommel would have been appointed the head of the provisional government (because he was respected by the allies) and that he would have accepted for the good of Germany. Rommel often expressed that he would do whatever it took to provide for Germany. The provisional Government would have moved all but a skeleton force of soldiers from the West Front to the East, offered peace to the Western Allies and hoped that they would see the opportunity to prevent the spread of communism and Soviet power. Unfortunately none of this happened.
Sjakihata
11-18-2003, 21:24
What if Iraq nailed the coalition? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I have a copy of this book, and it is interesting. its neat to read about how close the outcome frequently was at these pivital points in history. Some of the authors do get a little carried away with the consequences of these battles though. While i agree that history could have turned out much differently then what we see today, some of these things would have happened eventually anyway. nature fills vacuums.
wow, is that vague enough? let me use an example from the book. what if... greece had been conquered by the persians, then... all western society would be gone the author sites the development of democracy and concepts of freedom and whatnot as originating in greece, so with no greece, there is no western ideas and nations.
i just dont buy this type of reasoning. i feel that someone else would eventually come along, and originated these ideas. maybe it would have taken longer, or have been developed differently, but with human nature a general constant, it would have happened.
anyway
Quote[/b] (Sjakihata @ Nov. 18 2003,12:24)]What if Iraq nailed the coalition? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Sjak;
What coalition would that be? BR and the US are joined at the hip, eh?
What if????? How do you spell 'Veet Nom'?
Brutal DLX
11-19-2003, 10:32
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Nov. 18 2003,16:44)]Brutal, I need a clarification of language. Does:
Quote[/b] ]Mind you, that is utter crap, Imagowa.
translate to:
Quote[/b] ]Say there Imagowa, good chap, I'm afraid I will have to take a contrary position on your statement.
I'm just wondering because confusing language such as that statement tends to obscure the excellent point you made following it.
Yes Gregoshi, that is what it means, just in a more forceful language which I thought and still think is appropriate given the apparent 2 minutes which he needed to type his post (as you can see by the spelling) concerning one of the more tragic failures in recent German history. Thus I think this statement of his was hardly the end of a logical thought process, yet it is general statements such as this that sink into others the quickest, and need to be disproven strongly and right then.
If you must give me a yellow card for that, I shall accept it without appeal. Furthermore I will stay out of this thread as I already mentioned the most important things, the rest leaves more room to what ifs and speculations, of course, but not this particular one.
Thanks for the suggestion Cebei
Always like those What if? scenarios http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Hopefully it's available here in the Netherlands aswell I'll try and search for it in a bookstore (if they even have these here in this small town, maybe I can order it) whenever I get the time for it.
Woooo... I just noticed that What if 2 is already written Jeez these guys are fast
Gregoshi
11-19-2003, 23:01
No chip Brutal. I hope you aren't disappointed in that. It is apparent you have some strong feelings on the subject. My point was that such use of forceful language takes focus away from your message. The reader stops paying attention to what you are saying and instead is focused on the delivery. The discussion moves from one of logic and reason to one of emotion. You missed an opportunity to correct a misperception and educate others. Fortunately Dhepee picked up on the chance quite nicely.
Back on topic, what if...England was connected by land to rest of Europe? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
ShadesPanther
11-19-2003, 23:35
Quote[/b] ]what if...England was connected by land to rest of Europe?
Ooowww thats a tough one to predict
Basically a lot more invasions would occur and many problems would have arisen
eg. Napoleon doesn't like England (would probly be something else with all the invasions) so he invades a nice flat country a he could win http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
lancer63
11-20-2003, 00:06
What if the Japs had sunk the carriers at Pearl Harbour?
bighairyman
11-20-2003, 04:34
that US will be %$#^ed. it will take several months for US to rebuild it's fleet and if japan invade US right after pearl harbor, it could have conquer it's way all the way to chcaigo before US could muster any sort of defense http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
Papewaio
11-20-2003, 05:39
I think invading the USA would have taken a lot more effort... check out how much resources it took to invade Germany through France over a much smaller body of water.
As for how good the Imperial Army was... read up about the Kokoda Trail and the battles just before and after it.
I think an invasion of the US mainland would have had to face a similar staunch resistance as the Australians put up. With larger numbers and a larger distance to go it would be a lot more difficult to taxi large numbers of infantry across.
what if the Cuban missile crisis HAD escalated
what if Regan HAD pushed the button
what if Great Britain HAD won last years Eurovision song contest http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
ShadesPanther
11-20-2003, 18:09
basically WW3
What if Hitler had died during the great war. (No Russian Superpower, USA in depression etc)
Kekvit Irae
11-21-2003, 08:33
I started reading the book 'Alternate Generals', but quit after the first chapter with the heavily detailed rape of Queen Bodicea and her two daughters.
Havent read it since.
Funky Phantom
11-21-2003, 11:34
Quote[/b] (ShadesPanther @ Nov. 20 2003,11:09)](No Russian Superpower, USA in depression etc)
Would Hitlers death really have stopped these? Not likely since neither of them stemmed from anything he did...
I mean Russia was getting stronger with or without defeating the Nazis in WW2, it probably wouldve gone into Eastern Europe anyway eventually...
FoundationII
11-27-2003, 20:45
Don't forget the USA didn't have the Atlanticwall.
Even if they would started building one when the war began it wouldn't be finished because of the long coastline it has.
FoundationII
11-27-2003, 20:49
Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ Nov. 19 2003,22:39)]I think invading the USA would have taken a lot more effort... check out how much resources it took to invade Germany through France over a much smaller body of water.
As for how good the Imperial Army was... read up about the Kokoda Trail and the battles just before and after it.
I think an invasion of the US mainland would have had to face a similar staunch resistance as the Australians put up. With larger numbers and a larger distance to go it would be a lot more difficult to taxi large numbers of infantry across.
I forgot to put this as a quote with my previous post.
What if Vecingetorix had defeated Ceaser????
Would it have been the end of the Roman empire?
Count Alfred von Schlieffen
12-01-2003, 17:15
It would have meant that the senators who killed him in our history would not have needed to kill him and one of them would eventually have taken Caesar's place. I think.
It would also have meant that the slave Hygienicus would not have had to invent a really strong sort of washing power to wash the blood out of the senators' clothes, halting the growth of the wasing powder industry. Everyone would wear stinky clothing today.
WHAT IF
Koguryo did not stop the Sui Emperor from invading the Korean peninsula, and even conquer Japan?
Teutonic Knight
12-01-2003, 17:18
Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Nov. 17 2003,12:53)]Book suggestion.....by ME.
What if? by various authors.
The book is an excellent source written by leading military historians on what would have been the other way.
The chapters of the book include:
-Persians conquer Greece
-Alexander's interrupted journey 334 B.C.
-The Mediterranean Islamic Lake AD732
-Mongols conquer Europe
-Hernando Cortez fails
-Spain Invades England 1588
-Trapping Geoge Washington
-German Victory 1914
-Hitler's desert storm
-Japan's Pacific victory
-Two Chinas on the mainland 1950
I read the book and suggest it to everyone. It is even frightening.
Take a look (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425176428/qid=1069090311/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-2529611-5604104?v=glance&s=books)
God has a plan...
you may think I'm ridiculous for this but I do think that the events of the world are guided by God's hand...
P.S.: if it's got Stephen Ambrose I'm readin' it; already ordered...
Count Alfred von Schlieffen
12-02-2003, 14:48
No offence meant.... but if things are guided by God's hand, God's hand must be a little shaky.....
Kekvit Irae
12-02-2003, 18:25
Quote[/b] (Count Alfred von Schlieffen @ Dec. 02 2003,07:48)]No offence meant.... but if things are guided by God's hand, God's hand must be a littleshaky.....
That's an understatement http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Voigtkampf
12-05-2003, 17:44
Quote[/b] (kekvitirae @ Dec. 02 2003,11:25)]
Quote[/b] (Count Alfred von Schlieffen @ Dec. 02 2003,07:48)]No offence meant.... but if things are guided by God's hand, God's hand must be a littleshaky.....
That's an understatement http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
That reminds me of an old joke...
Writing on the wall says:
God is dead. signed, Nietzsche
The writing above that says:
Nietzsche is dead. signed, GOD http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Derfal Cadarn
12-05-2003, 21:36
What If the authors of the book what if hadnt written the book
Would we now all be talking about something else instead of what if :-)
Teutonic Knight
12-05-2003, 23:07
Quote[/b] (Derfal Cadarn @ Dec. 05 2003,15:36)]What If the authors of the book what if hadnt written the book
Would we now all be talking about something else instead of what if :-)
who knows what kind of cataclysmic events might have occured if they hadn't or we hadn't been talking about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Sun Tzui
12-31-2003, 17:38
Quote[/b] ]What if the Japs had sunk the carriers at Pearl Harbour?and had invaded Pearl Harbour that same day, and later stretched their western front to India (as i recall one of their fleets turned back) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
They would have controlled the pacific easily, and the US would probably take a long long time to recover...
Or WHAT IF Hitler had never created an Eastern front? he would have continued to import Russian goods and Great Britain would be in a LOT of trouble And IF the Japs never attacked Pearl Harbour? The US would have never entered the war? WHAT IF? WHAT IF? WHAT IF? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif So many variables, that one could write lots of fictional books, and imagine the outcome of a bazillion situations....
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Jerry60k
12-31-2003, 18:21
Hello guys my take on the Pearl Harbor situation is,The Japanese could not have taken and real hold on our land.They knew this and decided heavily against landing an invasion even though they could have many times.One reason being in America we have private gun ownership and the Japanese knew this and wanted no part in it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Just my 2 cents.
heres a good one for you..
what if King Henry V had not died 6 months before being crowned king of france? it was already arranged Discuss that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Quote[/b] (Ashen @ Dec. 31 2003,18:34)]heres a good one for you..
what if King Henry V had not died 6 months before being crowned king of france? it was already arranged Discuss that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
France would be British, the Napoleonic wars never would have happened, leading to no WW1 or WW2, no Communism, and the whole world would be perfect. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Teutonic Knight
12-31-2003, 20:58
Quote[/b] (BDC @ Dec. 31 2003,14:31)]
Quote[/b] (Ashen @ Dec. 31 2003,18:34)]heres a good one for you..
what if King Henry V had not died 6 months before being crowned king of france? it was already arranged Discuss that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
France would be British, the Napoleonic wars never would have happened, leading to no WW1 or WW2, no Communism, and the whole world would be perfect. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
ROFL
Hail Britannia....
abortretryfail
12-31-2003, 21:03
Quote[/b] ]What if the Japs had sunk the carriers at Pearl Harbour?
the attack @ Pearl Harbor was never intended to be followed up by an invasion of Western USA. This simply would not have been possible logistically (not to mention militarily) for the Japanese to pull off.
Without USA bothering them in the Pacific though, the Japanese would have wrapped up the Chinese in short order, secured the material wealth of far east Asia, & been able to possibly mount an offensive on USSR from the east. This would certainly have changed the war in the west in the Axis' favor. *shiver*
thank you for reading my 1st post http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
dunnichen
01-03-2004, 16:03
I agree mainly with abortretryfail, but not totally. USA was a superpower already in 1941. No other country would have been able to win the war against the USA. It was a sign of totally loss of sense for reality that Germany declared war to the USA in December 1941.
If the Japanese had sunk the US carriers? The Americans would have build new ones even faster as they actually did. I would have given the Japanese more time but nothing more. I don't think the Japanese would have invaded the SU from the east because they knew of the power of the USA and would have tried to deal with it.
Generally spoken: there are what ifs and what ifs. Some events can change history decisively, others not.
For example the German high command, notably the Chief of Staff, Gen. Halder, planned an attempt on Hitler in 1938 because Hitlers policy against Czecheslowacia would led to war. It was the best chance ever to get rid of Hitler but after the outbreak of war was averted by the treaty of Munic the generals did not wage the assassination. Hitler was seen as the great hero by many Germans so the generals fear civil war even if the attempt would have succeeded. A successful attempt on Hitlers life at that time would have hindered WWII and saved the life of millions of people.
The attempt of Juli 1944 would have had not nearly the same results. It was a much too late, desparate and ill planned trial to do at least anything. The involved officiers didn't really know what to do after the desired success. Probably the war had ended earlier but so much damage was already done before the attempt.
It would be funny to discuss what is to be a decisive what if and what is not, wouldn't it.
What if Adam had refused the apple? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Voigtkampf
01-03-2004, 16:57
Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Jan. 03 2004,09:41)]What if Adam had refused the apple? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Everything would be perfectly... boring
Sun Tzui
01-05-2004, 11:03
Jerry60k and abortretryfail I meant an invasion of Pearl Harbour, not continental USA. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Quote[/b] ]It was a sign of totally loss of sense for reality that Germany declared war to the USA in December 1941.
But Germany had signed a secret pact with the Japs remember?
Quote[/b] ]It would be funny to discuss what is to be a decisive what if and what is not, wouldn't it.There are just too many What if's.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif But it is Fun...Lot's of it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
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