Attack - defence values

[BRCN]

Ok, here is the question. Take two units, JHI ( 5 attack, 3 defence) and Golden Horde Hvy Cav ( 3 attack, 6 defense). They are attacking each other at the same time. After the initial charge, none is routed, and the fight continues for some more time. Now, which unit is using which value? Since they are attacking each other, are they only using their attack values, or after the initial attack, are they using their defence? This is becoming complicated to write.

[frogbeastegg]

Both values are used by both units. For example:
Janissary swings at Heavy cavalry. Jan uses his attack stat and cavalry uses his defence.
Heavy cavalry then swings at Janissary. cavalry uses his attack stat and Jan uses his defence.
Each exchange of blows is a combat round. This forumula repeats with one round per second until one man is killed, however the dead man will still get his attack for that round. Of course this example leaves out the charge bonus (if the one or both of the units charge into battle the charge bonus is added to the attack stat), I shall let someone more mathmatically able explain that

[Cebei]

Frog, where can I find the unit stats chart?

[frogbeastegg]

clan Berserk (http://shogun.cafe24.com/medieval/) unit tool has the complete set of unit stats listed.

[Cebei]

Thanks

Adding to BRCN, when charging @ wedge formation, does the charge bonus apply only on the first man on the charge? If yes, isnt it better to charge on normal formation?

[econ21]

BRCN: to expand on what frogbeastegg said, troops in both units are hitting each other back and the chance to kill depends on the difference between the attack and defence values. In your example, other things being equal, the JHI hit the cav at -1 (5 JHI att vs 6 cav def) and the cav hit back at 0 (3 vs 3).

However, there are some other important stats to take note of:
- the JHI have armour piercing weapons; give a bonus of something like (armour-2)/2 vs inf (armour-3)/2 vs cav, so get a +2 vs Mongol Heavy Cav
- the JHI also have anti-cav benefits from their polearms (+3 att, +1 defence)
Factoring these in, I make it that the JHI attacks at +4 vs the cav and the cav attacks at -1 vs the JHI.

The Mongols will benefit from adding their charge value in the opening round(s) of combat, but still it does not look good for them.

[BRCN]

Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[dunnichen]

Annother question:

1.
What exactly does armour level mean? Is it the number of blows a warrior can take without dying or the number of blows which let a man die?


2.
Attack/melee bonus, charge and defence I can find in the crusader_unit_prod. In what files I can find the additional values like armour-piecing weapon (in the crus-prod there is only yes or no), anti-cavalry benefit and else?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[el_slapper]

Commentaire[/b] (dunnichen @ Jan. 07 2004,10:29)]Annother question:

1.
What exactly does armour level mean? Is it the number of blows a warrior can take without dying or the number of blows which let a man die?


2.
Attack/melee bonus, charge and defence I can find in the crusader_unit_prod. In what files I can find the additional values like armour-piecing weapon (in the crus-prod there is only yes or no), anti-cavalry benefit and else?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Defence defends against HtH attacks
Armour defendes versus ranged attacks.

armour piercing I do not remember...

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (dunnichen @ Jan. 07 2004,11:29)]Annother question:

1.
What exactly does armour level mean? Is it the number of blows a warrior can take without dying or the number of blows which let a man die?


2.
Attack/melee bonus, charge and defence I can find in the crusader_unit_prod. In what files I can find the additional values like armour-piecing weapon (in the crus-prod there is only yes or no), anti-cavalry benefit and else?
Armour level is NOT the number of blows a unit can have before dying. Any unit will die after a single hit (exceptions are generals and perhaps unit leaders).
Armour represents the defence value against missiles. During close combat it will be added to the defence value. However, there is a modifier for armor piercing weapons. See the appendixes of Unit Guide from Frogbeastegg for that (this modifier is a formula dependent on the armour of the target, not on the weapon). The unit guide can be found in the Main Hall.

Anti cavalry benifit is a standard bonus to attack and defend against cavarly units, but I don't know the extent of these. I believe it is +4 to attack and defence.

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Jan. 07 2004,05:10)]Anti cavalry benifit is a standard bonus to attack and defend against cavarly units, but I don't know the extent of these. I believe it is +4 to attack and defence.
For spear units its +1 attack and +4 defence, for pike
units the values are respectively +2 and +6, while for
halberd units its +3 attack and +1 defence.


.EC.

[dunnichen]

Thanks a lot for Your answers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It seems to me that I have to change my view of the unit values considerably

For example, if you have a warrior without body armour but a helmet and big shield, I would have given him defence 3 or 4 (I have (had) a system for this) and armour 1. But that would be nonsence if I take into account Your posts

A man with a big shield in reality would be fairly well protected against arrows or other ranged attack. But in MTW he would suffer severly if he had only armour 1. So should he have less defence and more armour although he is not armoured?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Eastside Character]

Quote[/b] (dunnichen @ Jan. 07 2004,06:52)]A man with a big shield in reality would be fairly well protected against arrows or other ranged attack. But in MTW he would suffer severly if he had only armour 1. So should he have less defence and more armour although he is not armoured?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
You should also remember that there is a shield modifier to armour level.

[CBR]

If you are interested in how the values have been calculated by CA, then you can download the excel sheets they used.


MTW stats (http://www.mizus.com/Files/k0rgs8gVt/MTW/Stats/MTW_Prod_Files.zip)

Vikings stats (http://www.mizus.com/Files/k0rgs8gVt/MTW/Stats/Vikings_Prod_files.zip)



The warrior with no armour and a large shield would have armour 1 plus 2 from his large shield. And start with defense -2 plus 2 from his large shield, and maybe get another defense point if he uses a spear. There might be some +/- 1 defense depending on what troop quality he is supposed to be. But thats how CA has done it.


CBR