Various Questions, thoughts and conjectures

[Evil SPoon]

Well, I have finaly come up with a handful of questions for you fine folks that I havent been able to answer with the search feature, or havent been able to find.

firstly: Assaluting Fortifications,
In the short time I have played MTW, my approach to siege warfare has evolved from 'throw Gazis at it' to 'bash down a wall then throw Gazis at it'. Bolth get the job done, but I find that I loose far too many men that way and it only work if the defending garrison is weak (I tryed it versus a Byz army that retreated directly to the castle when I attacked and ended up geting 240 Gazis smeared by 2 fresh units of Kats, it was the only time I've seen Gazis rout) so my question to you is, what are the best units/tactics for assulting castles?

Secondly: Cavalry Weapons
Does the paper, rock, scissors rule apply in Cavalry vs. Cavalry situations? as in Cav with swords having the same adavntage over Cav with lances/spears that swordsmen have over spearmen. I know some Cavalry (Malmuks, Dhruzina(sp))
do well vs. other cav becasue of they're axes but do say, Ottoman Saphi(sp) vs. Byz lancers for example?

Thirdly: Dismounted Trucoman Horse
I play as the Turks, Early, Normal (dont feel ready for hard yet) almost exclusivly, and use a lot of Turcoman horse in my armies as skermishers, flankers and foot archers as the situation demands. What I am wondering is if there is any profound weakness in the dismounted version vs. standard Turcoman foot, other than being 20 men short of a full unit of foot?

I relalize most if not all of this has probibly already been throughly discussed, forgive me if any of this is redundant and forgive my horrid spelling while your at it

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Thank you for your time, I stedfastly await your input

SPoon

[King John II]

I don't think those are points which have been well discussed.

I certainly don't know the answers, anyway.

My own approach to assaults where there is a sizeable number of occupants is to wait a year or two so that the garrison take losses and then I assault (to save the castle being degraded) when it is otherwise about to fall.

That loses out a bit in that you don't get any income from the province while you wait and you are delaying the jump in loyatlty which takes place as soon as you give the instruction to commence the assault. So it ties down troops for a bit.

But it makes the assault itself easier.

I tend to keep a rag bag collection of merc remnants that move around with my front line armies and I use those for assaults. Such units are not much use for anything else and losing mercs saves me more upkeep than losing my own troops.

But if I was using my own troops I would go for the best armoured, I think, trying to minimise losses from the castle's arrows towers etc.

Some use peasant units to batter down the walls or storm the gatehouse. On the basis that this is cheaper.

I have tried siege equipment with a measure of success but have yet to figure out how to judge the distance away from the castle to site the equipment so as to keep the engineers away from the arrows.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Quote[/b] ]firstly: Assaluting Fortifications,
In the short time I have played MTW, my approach to siege warfare has evolved from 'throw Gazis at it' to 'bash down a wall then throw Gazis at it'. Bolth get the job done, but I find that I loose far too many men that way and it only work if the defending garrison is weak (I tryed it versus a Byz army that retreated directly to the castle when I attacked and ended up geting 240 Gazis smeared by 2 fresh units of Kats, it was the only time I've seen Gazis rout) so my question to you is, what are the best units/tactics for assulting castles?

I play a very defensive style game. I like to only build as many troops as necesary and minimize my losses in order to keep money in the treasury. Therefore, I usually build one army that consists of all my siege equipment and I move this army around to whichever province I am going to invade next. I've tried using trebuchets and mangonels and have found that while they may do more damage, their inability to turn creates too much af a liability and this causes me to choose regular catapults as my main siege weapons (cannon take too long to arrive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). My siege train usually has 6-10 catapults in it and I decide how many to use based on the size of the castle and the garrison.

When actually launching the assault I always knock two holes in the outer wall and one hole in the inner wall. I focus spearmen of some type on one of the holes in the outer wall and try to sneak my main offensive forces through the second hole while the spearmen occupy the defenders. Once my main offensive forces are through I will circle around the defenders and try to hit them from every side.

Assaulting the inner castle area is usually easier because the defenders wait at the top of the little hill that the keep sits on. I charge on unit directly at the defenders and order the rest around the edges in order to flank them also.

Some tips I have found valuable:

1. Never assault through a gate unless you have to.

2. All cavalry can dismount for a castle assault. Dismounted knights of all types make very good shock troops in an assault.

3. If you knock enough holes in the wall and still have ammo left don't aim directly at troops standnig around. Aim at a nearby arrow tower and you will be more likely to hit the troops standing around. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

4. Numbers don't matter as much in an assault but it is still a good idea to cycle out the siege engines and bring in reinforcements before the assault.

5. While holding the general back does keep his unit intact and avoid the lucky arrow deaths, it also causes a morale penalty to your troops. Bring the general up with the offensive units.

6. I have no use for archers in a castle assault

7. It takes a combination of troops to make a good assault. Spears to occupy the enemy and swords or axes to press the sides. All of one or the other will usually result in higher losses.

8. In the later stages of the game build inns and check them for Mercs. While it might take you forever to build a master foundry, some of the other factions may already have them and cannons may be available as mercs. Whenever you can take a cannon on an assault do so. They'll tear down the entire fortification.

9. Always place your siege equipment on a hill if possible. Check the range. Place a catapult and then place the cursor over the wall you want to aim at. If the cursor is green you can hit it and I would suggest moving it back further and checking again. If the cursor is blinking red then you can't hit the wall and need to move the catapult closer. I always place the cats as far away as reasonable. Remember to check the distance to all of the walls you want to hit. Arrow casualties to catapults are cheaper than losing chiv knights battering down a gate.

These are just my personal thoughts. I have rather extensive knowledge because I assault every single castle. Letting the siege resolve itself over time is unrealistic and not challenging enough for my personal tastes.

Playing as the Turks I would use Saracens as my main attack force and then find a way to sneak Ghazi or Ottoman Inf around the flanks.

Hope some of this helps.

Don't forget to remind yourself before every assault: there is no spoon, evil or otherwise. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif



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[Evil SPoon]

That was very helpful indeed Mr.Schtrapp, thank you.

My style is very simalar to yours as far as building only what I need, and playing defencively with the occasional well timed flurry of agression, usually taking 3 or 4 provinces at a time. However, I have never concidered using
spears for a castle assault, a very good idea, and I usually only bring around 4 siege engines and only assault from one direction, which is probibly the source of my high body counts.

[King John II]

A most helpful post indeed.

The tip on how to site seige equipment alone is excellent value.

Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[LestaT]

I only assault only when i need to ( long waiting time until castle fall or threat of excoms ). Since i NEVER built ballistas/mangonels (all those types of weapon) usually i bring about 4-5 cannons and blast the outer gate first. after the gate is breaCH then i'll direct my artillery to the inner gate. after that depends on the ammunition i'll target the towers. keep on firing until all the shells are spent.

then i send my spearmen first to crush the defenders.. and so on. always targeting their general units first because usually after the general is dead, other units die much easier.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] ]Secondly: Cavalry Weapons
Does the paper, rock, scissors rule apply in Cavalry vs. Cavalry situations? as in Cav with swords having the same adavntage over Cav with lances/spears that swordsmen have over spearmen. I know some Cavalry (Malmuks, Dhruzina(sp)) do well vs. other cav becasue of they're axes but do say, Ottoman Saphi(sp) vs. Byz lancers for example?

These axe-wielding cav do well due to their anti-armor bonus. For example, Gothic Knights have a mace for a weapon that is specifically designed to penetrate armor. Slow, but they can take on any other cavalry head-to-head.

Some cav, like Spanish Lancers, get a great charge bonus due to their lances. There is a pretty wide range of attack values for cav, from the weak Saharans up to the heavy Catholic Knights. Plus, with the valor upgrades that one can add, it becomes important ot understand the numbers. There are several great unit compare/army builder tools out there (I like Yas's).

ichiRW

[Evil SPoon]

Thank you all for the great feedback http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ScubaSteveDave]

My method of assaulting a castle is a little overkill: I like to bring all the artillery I can muster and completely reduce the defenses (i.e. I destroy anything that can be destroyed). This is difficult before gunpowder weapons (especially culverins, damn those things rock my face off) as most siege equipment is inaccurate at long range (especially against towers) and moving them closer is going to get most of the crews killed. What makes this worse is that the most powerful mechanical siege weapons can not turn, thus limiting the number of targets they can hit to about three or four.

However, there is a loophole on the 16 unit limit: on castle assaults you can drop twoor more armies on a castle, and when the battle begins the remaining units are available as reinforcements Okay, so it is not really a loophole, but it took me a few assaults before I figured it out. This means you can have 15 units of siege equipment and you general, shoot until everything is destroyed, you run out of ammo (I play with unlimited ammo, as I figure that archers can carry at least four dozen arrows each in battle, and that it is unfair for a castle to have unlimited ammunition while siege equipment run out before they can do any damage have too few crewmen remaining or have the artillery destroyed, then have the crews withdraw and assault whatever is left with the reinforcements. It can be easier and far more satisfying that way. (an eye for an eye? Forget it You take an eye and I'll that your @#$^% head)

[Doug-Thompson]

Re: assaulting forts.

First off, don't use Ghazi's alone. They are fire and forget units that you use to take out armor. High casualties are the norm for them.

The advice you've received is excellent, but there is an alternative approach on siege artillery.

Low-valor siege is not too accurate. So, if you target an arrow tower, many of your shots will miss and hit adjoining walls.

This means that you can destroy a tower and cause 30 percent or more damage to a wall, all at the same time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Therefore, I put long-range artillery like trebuchets in range of a tower and and inner wall, and sometimes in range of the keep and its towers. If I can line up two towers in the same line of fire, that's great.

Then I put some catapults in front of the treb,

ALL that siege fires at the nearest tower at first, quickly demolishing it and severely damaging the nearby walls. Then knock the walls down, without suffering more casualties from the fire from the tower.

Also, I don't think using loose formation for siege artillery crews hurts their rate of fire, but it sure reduces their casualties.

Keep them firing as long as there's ammo. I once had a mangonel that couldn't hit anything but a shack, so I demolished the shack. One of the stones thrown missed the shack, rolled along the ground and killed the enemy general, who was out of range.
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[son of spam]

No, I don't believe there is any weakness compared to regualr turc foot when you dismount turcoman horse. The game engine is kinda stupid that way. For example, Druzhina Cav dismount into FFK, but Druzhina only have 2 morale and FFK have 8 morale. Thus, the Druzhina gain 6 morale by dismounting, which is quite funny if you think about it.

Hey let's get off the horse, so then we'll be more liable to get hit by arrows and we can no longer run away from heavy cav

All right I feel so much more confident now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[lancer63]

Great advise, hope this helps.
I try to always assault with at least 6 arty pieces, divided in 2 batteries of 3. Place them one opposite the other, i.e. one facing north and the other facing south, with the castle in between them. duh
Do the same thing with the troops. If properly done you'll be able to blast a path from end to en of the castle, it's helpful specially in those big ole castles with several devensive rings. Your enemy gets pounded from opposite sides and if you engage at the same time, the force that ends first can cut tru the keep and go help the other one finish the job.

It's not a perfect technique but its fun and keeps me busy in an otherwise dull part of the tactical mode. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[katank]

lance cav typically have better charge and melees with sword.

axe wielding cav is good vs. other cav only because of AP ability and most cav are fairly heavily armoured.

however, it's far better to use mamluks for bashing heavily armoured sword units.

druzhina are meant to be used for dismounting into foot knights.

I think the devs decided that the Russians need a sword unit.

When in regular MTW, I played the Russians and didn't find any sword inf. Halbs don't quite cut it.

As for assaulting, I like to use pure catapults before gunpowder. Engines like mangonels and trebs get wrecked too easily by defensive tower fire and high angle shots mean less chance to hit on a bounce.

My catapults tend to hit the walls far more frequently.

Who said archers are useless? in fort level, 6+ archers can easily bring down a wall in 3 volleys.

I would say always target walls and breach those instead of the gate which might close and screw you over.

furthermore, in VI, the units hitting the gate might get the oil treatment. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif where did my men go?

use peasants and mercs to do the gate pounding etc. as they are quite expendable.

other than that, use heavy defensive inf like halbs to do the grunt work.

swords are good. I don't use spears much as they don't kill fast enough for my liking.

BTW, for druzhina, they might be more secure since they get better stats etc. Don't think so about more liable to get arrow stuff as the horses are bigger targets although movement speed is reduced when you dismount.

[Doug-Thompson]

Re: Cavalry. It depends, but as a general rule the charge bonus when you have a lance more than makes up for the penalty in melee, especially if the lance-armed unit is well armored and if it can charge, pull back and charge again.

Re: Turcoman horse/foot.

The only disadvantage dismounted Turcoman Horse suffers compared to Turcoman food is that Turcoman Horse are a lot more expensive.

[Somebody Else]

Assaulting forts: Considering my standard army in single player usually consists of rather a defensive force (Halberdiers, archers/arbalesters, some cavalry, some siege) I usually have some artillery - in the form of catapults or cannon - especially if I'm attacking a province with a castle. I usually set up to the side of the castle and make breaches in the walls between the castle and the outside, and also connecting walls. Then in go the halberdiers (possibly my favourite standard unit) and/or dismounted knights. This usually works, as in the close confines of the castle, nothing can get away. If attacking a fort, siege equipment is unnecessary - archers can destroy the walls well enough.

Cavalry: As mentioned earlier, there are some cavalry units that are anti-cavalry. Gothic Knights for one. To be honest though, I'm not the greatest person to ask about cavalry tactics. just give me my heavy infantry and I'll carve through whatever I need to at my own pace.

Dismounted turcomans: Disadvantages - smaller unit size. More expensive. Advantage - chance of having more valour if used previously to chase people down whilst mounted.
Keep them mounted - they may be less accurate whilst on their horses, but are much more manoeuverable and can be used to harass the enemy.

[Finn]

Dont think anyone has mentioned it yet, but i handle sieging forts completely different to castles

forts i dont bother with seige equipment at all preferring to max out on archers (best archers you can get but NOT crossbows/arbs as they cant fire flaming arrows)

then i simply level the walls with the archers, against wooden fortifications archers seem to do more damage far quicker than artillery, including the later gunpowder artillery, also once you have breached the walls (both if nescessary) then the archers are better suited to peppering the defenders while i send in whatever infintry can best deal with the defenders

for anything higher than a fort (eg has stone walls instead of wood) then i follow the lines as people have already said

though tbh before gunpowder i prefer not to seige castles, instead i have an army of rather crappy units which follows my main army, the main army fights and moves on, then the crappy army sits out the seige so that the losses arent too bad, just make sure the crappy army is good enough so that if the defenders do decide to sally out the castle, you can handle them.

[WorkNeglecter]

Spies. They will save you a lot of time and trouble. Move them in with your invasion forces.
Important: the probability of opening the gates increases the longer the spy has been in the province.
I.E.: If you try to open the gates with a spy from the neighbouring province, the success rate is 0%. From the same province, 10%. The next turn, from the same province, 25%.
I usually wait until the castle is about to fall and then hit it with spies who've been in the province since the start of the siege.
Note: There will be slight casualties distributed evenly among all beseiging units. Take high valour ones out of the province before using the spies to open the gates.

[Somebody Else]

When sieging, I find the king unit comes in useful - as even if it does lose men through the attrition of the siege, it replenishes itself for free anyway. I've also noticed that when I had an army with some knights and spearmen sieging a castle - the rest of my army had gone off to bash somebody else, only the spearmen died.