Turks usually this easy? :p [Archive]

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Vigi

11-22-2003, 19:41

I just started my first campaign as the Turks today and my goodness are they easy So far at least. Playing on early/hard/GA. Anyways I guess the chief reason for this has been that I have captured and ransomed off the Egyptian sultan twice. Now I wasn't planning on doing this as it seems like a lame thing to continue you doing. The first time I did it on purpose, with my early invasion I planned on killing or ransoming him. The second time, however, I ransomed him off when I invaded Arabia. That was not intentional but I can't see i'm not pleased with the results as it has left me with over 30k in florins.

As it stands now I have all of the Egyptian's original provinces, and my original provinces. Thats basically my empire right now. I have a large amount of troops defending my interests. I am now producing turcoman horse with a valor bonus and Armenian calv with a valor bonus. Saracen Inf additionally are starting to get pumped out of Rum. The Byzantines are probably reasonably powerful, but I'm betting I will roll all over them. It's been a fun campaign so far no doubt about it, but I also think that victory is fairly assured for me at this point. I control incredibly rich areas making somewhere around 4.5k a year. All that and I haven't even set my trade network up yet, though I am in the process of doing so. Heres a couple of questions I have for Turkish players though:

1) Do the egyptians normally fall over that easily http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif or did I just get lucky.
2) Are the Turks generally, "easy" to win with for you?
3) No one wants to ally with me. Period. Is this normal?
4) What units are worth teching up for?

ichi

11-22-2003, 21:59

Quote[/b] ]1) Do the egyptians normally fall over that easily http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif or did I just get lucky. I find them easy to beat, especially if the Almos or spain is knocking on their other door.

Quote[/b] ]2) Are the Turks generally, "easy" to win with for you? If you can survive the early years and expand to Constantinople, up to Georgia or Khazar, and down to Egypt or Cyrenacia, then it gets easy for a while. In Late, the Catholics can have some pretty good units, and it gets harder.

Quote[/b] ]3) No one wants to ally with me. Period. Is this normal? Yes. Everyone hates you.

Quote[/b] ]4) What units are worth teching up for?

The obvious answer is JHI, one of the best infantry units in the game and necessary to compete with Catholics. Use the Provincial bonuses to build Sipahis in Edessa; Armenian Heavy Cav in Armenia; Ghulam Cav in Lesser Armenia; Janissary Archers in Georgia; Ottoman Infantry in Rum; Turcoman Horse Archers in Tripoli; Turcoman Foot Soldiers in Anatolia.

A great late Turk army with a few high valor Saracens to engage and hold, a few Ottomans, Turcomans, or Futuwwas to shoot and fight, 3-4 AHC, 3-4 JHI, and a Turc HA can do pretty good against Catholics. But I always build inns to find high quality Catholic Mercs to acquuire; if you can't beat, have 'em join you

ichi

Hurin_Rules

11-22-2003, 22:04

Don't underestimate the Byzantines, especially in early. Expect to take heavy losses against their Byzantine Infantry, Kataphractoi and Varangian Guards, especially with five and six star heirs commanding them.

The Turks are fun and can be very effective. After taking Constantinople, I managed to ally with the Hungarians and Sicilians. Build up your navy now because either the Italians or the Sicilians are likely to be making a sizeable navy, and sooner or later you'll probably have to take it out.

Turks have some very good units, but some of them don't appear till late. I like JHI and JI. For the early period, it can be hard to face up to the heavier catholic units. I'd recommend fitting out some ghazis with armor and weapon upgrades if you can. I relied heavily on them, and they're good in the desert too because they are lightly armoured.

Gotta luv the Turks

Revenant69

11-23-2003, 15:26

Hehehehehehehe.....Vigi you are going down the same road that i went http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif It is called overconfidence lol. Really Egyptians are nobody compared to the Byzantines, especially so if you capture their sultan.

Just check out this thread of mine, as there are many many parallels between your story and mine. Should make for a fun read. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

How much fun it is to play the Turks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=10420;hl=turks)

After getting my butt absolutely obliterated against the Byzantines i came to love Turks, and now it is my favorite faction. Sinan helped me with learning how to use their cavalry effectively + much more. It is really funny, but that knowledge of cavalry spread to other factions and I find myself building more cavalry than i ever used to before http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

My French Gendarmes, Chivalric Kinghts, Mounted Sarges and Steppe Heavies obliterated a Mongol army ten times their size.

Back to the point, read the thread and hae fun. Or you could attack the Byzantines and then read the thread and compare your experiences to mine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers m8
Rev

PS I have this personal attachment to Gendarmes, they have saved my butt many a time - really good unit IMHO

Revenant69

11-23-2003, 15:45

I forgot to actually answer your questions. So here are my observations:

Quote[/b] ]1) Do the egyptians normally fall over that easily or did I just get lucky.

I played Turks twice so far and both times the Egyptians were a pushover, their armies of peasants are well, just rabble.

Quote[/b] ]2) Are the Turks generally, "easy" to win with for you?

I would like to clarify this question. Every faction has its most precarious point in time during its development. Once that point has been surpassed everything is peachy. So i think that every faction is easy to a degree. If i decide to play Turks for the third time at some point (it will be soon) then i will have easier time for sure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]3) No one wants to ally with me. Period. Is this normal?

Oh yeah, everyone hates your guts since you are playing a muslim faction. In my games even almohads, my muslim brothers in arms refused to ally with me. What insolence http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]4) What units are worth teching up for?

For Early period: An absolute must is to have valor 2 Turcoman horse from Tripoli and valor 2 Armenians from Armenia and Ghulam cavalry from Lesser Armenia. Oh, also Saracen infantry are invaluable.

For High Period: Jannisary Heavy infantry and Jannisary Infantry are a must. I also like Khwarazmian Cavalry as they form an iron core of my heavy punch.

For Late: Ottoman Infantry - these guys rock.
I may be forgetting some others, but i usually build all of the units and use them as well.

o_loompah_the_delayer

11-23-2003, 16:42

on 2) as Rev said after the initial consolidation most factions are quite easy, what you should do for a rollicking game is play Turks in the Late era - you have one province, the Egyptians can kick your ass for a change and so can the Mongols. And when the catholics start crusading against Egypt, they will be coming your way with all those nasty knights. And you wont initially for about 20-40 years have enough cash to dream of JHI

o_loompah_the_delayer

11-23-2003, 16:45

Also regarding the Byz, take them on as early as possible, but be prepard for heavy losses. Kataprats are VERY difficult to kill, and Byz Inf will make mincemeat out of normal spearmen. You will need saracen inf. Varangs are also very, very bad. You really need to surround them and get them to rout which can be difficult.

Brutal DLX

11-24-2003, 10:31

Turks are not very easy, but not challenging either. I'm playing the same game as you at the moment, and I didn't attack the Egyptians as they are my Muslim brethren.
Since I was peaceful, I have been able to get a lot of alliances, although they won't last forever as sooner or later the Catholics will start sending crusades my way.

For now, I had a little war with the Byzantines, who attacked the Egyptians (my allies). I took two provinces and am staying defensive for now, slowly starting to prepare for the arrival of the Mongols.

Late units definitely go for Janissaries and Ottomans, Early and High you should build Saracen Infantry and Armenian Cavalry, along with some archers. And nearly all factions fall over easily at the start of the game since they mostly build peasants for a while. If you want more of a challenge, restrain yourself. It's GA, not total domination.

Magraev

11-24-2003, 14:58

I don't understand the praise for ottoman inf. It's just a slow version of turcomans isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The main problem from High onward is range. You have no troops to shoot it out with arbalesters and PA's.

And you can only build Jannisaries in one place at a time - not enough to build an empire. In other words you have to grab a lot of land now and then win with weight of numbers (or mercs) later on.

The_Emperor

11-24-2003, 15:13

Vigi

11-24-2003, 19:56

Well Ottomans do get a bonus vs armored troops with their axes so I guess thats + compared to Turcomans. I can't really say though as I haven't got to use them yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif.

Brutal DLX

11-25-2003, 11:06

Quote[/b] (Magraev @ Nov. 24 2003,13:58)]I don't understand the praise for ottoman inf. It's just a slow version of turcomans isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The main problem from High onward is range. You have no troops to shoot it out with arbalesters and PA's.

And you can only build Jannisaries in one place at a time - not enough to build an empire. In other words you have to grab a lot of land now and then win with weight of numbers (or mercs) later on.
Ottomans are a critical piece in the puzzle that is called your High/Late Turkish army.
Usually you would have an all hybrid infantry, pepper the enemy with arrows, then charge in, while letting your Ottomans flank the enemy. They are quite lethal against Western armies, due to their armour piercing attack. You really don't need Arbalesters when you have hybrid units. Just be aggressive and don't start a boringly long shootout. A few volleys, then charge. Missile wars are for Catholics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

About Janissaries, true, you can build multiple academies, althought that's slightly cheesy, but even with one you can get a hard hitting army up in about 10 turns. And that army can defeat anything the AI can throw at you, so if you possess all of Asia Minor including Constantinople, you will have an easy time.

Magraev

11-25-2003, 11:10

I see your point.

Actually hybrid units annoy me. With all-hybrid infantry you mess up the auto-formations, and they seem less good at both tasks than the dedicated meleetroops and missiletroops.

Brutal DLX

11-25-2003, 12:40

Yes, they have slightly inferior stats than the dedicated melee troops, that's why it is important to make use of their archery ability before engaging in melee combat. Granted, it takes a little practice, but then it's worthwhile to learn how to use this type of army, it's the variation of tactics and units that add to the long term appeal of this game..

But of course you still can get by using Saracens, JHI and Ghazis, with Futtuwas as missile troops plus your choice of cavalry, but then you're missing out on the fun aspect of the Turkish armies.

o_loompah_the_delayer

11-25-2003, 12:43

From the Turkish/Egyptian perspective they are very useful as the only good melee unit is the ghazis - no FMAA, CMAA, vikings, highlanders, gallowglass available to the catholics, and only saracen/ muwahids against FS/CS/ halberdiers. Futuwwas can often win the battle for you with a charge into the melee. As for missilies, again their is no longbows or arbalesters, just desert archers.

The lack of these units I think make the Almos one of the more difficult factions to play in late combined with the lack of decent Heavy Cav (only ghulams are available and they arent that good relative to Armenian HC or Khwarizm or Mameluke HC)

Doug-Thompson

12-01-2003, 17:00

Quote[/b] (Vigi @ Nov. 22 2003,12:41)]1) Do the egyptians normally fall over that easily http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif or did I just get lucky.
2) Are the Turks generally, "easy" to win with for you?
3) No one wants to ally with me. Period. Is this normal?
4) What units are worth teching up for?
Not much to add to the replies already received. Just a few observations.

1. Pushing over the Egyptians isn't all that hard, but ransoming the sultan twice is a rare piece of luck.

Note that when a human player takes the Egyptians, the Turks are a pushover.

2. Yes, although the set-up tells you this is a "hard" faction. Not true. I wonder if the patch changed the Egyptian and Byzantine AI.

3. That's true in general, but it's also true that AI factions don't normally ally with a very agressive faction.

4. Although it isn't "teching up," per se, be sure to make provisions for Jihads and a decent navy. Having a bunch of Jihads that can be shipped to a single province is nice.