View Full Version : Unit vote!
Stefan the Berserker
11-24-2003, 18:47
http://www.fg-zinnfiguren.de/Warriors%20of%20Arminius.PDF
This is an Report on the Germanic Army of the historican Friedrich Giesler, remember you need the Acrobat-Reader to see it
Mr. Giesler completely discribes Germanic Units and sources them with roman historicans... He even goes so deep that he covers their Hairstyle and Clothing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Looks very Dark Age European (Bah, bah No naked Barbarians )
Well, should CA create Germania's Units after that Report instead of useing the Barbarian Units already created?
http://www.fg-zinnfiguren.de/bellumVarianum.PDF
http://www.fg-zinnfiguren.de/Sax.PDF
Also interessting reports of Friedrich Giesler, unfortunatly only avarible in german... No English Version ):
The Marketing aspect of CA already won out in this aspect I believe. After the release will come mods, some which I know will fix the Germanic and Egyptian units.
Nice
But honestly, I counted four units.
Spear/lance-men, guard cavalry, skirmishers and berserker style infantry. And yes it would be nice if they were clothed.
Basileus
11-24-2003, 21:35
voted yes, the closer to historicly accurate the better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Naked Barbarians are sometimes attributed to all non-Roman fighters, a-la-gladiator, although there were only a few instances where Greco-Romans encountered naked Berserkers. The myth started with the Greeks and then Romans perpetrated it, and the myth grew bigger and bigger a-la Californian-Goubernatorial-Konan-The-Barbarians today.
Here are some details I found believable:
- Germanic tribes concevably wear warmly clothed with hides and skins when fight on their territory. They are much more accustomed to the cold and any cold-weather people wouldn't venture outdoor without proper cloths (Packers Football Fans aside). It is very likely that Germanic tribes were more warmly cloths than Roman Legions, since Romans were from the Mediteranian climate.
- Barbarians did sack Rome and brought down the empire and I speculate they removed their armors the berserkers' way because they fought in hotter climate (and to show disdain at Romans fighting).
- The Greek "complainted" about the naked barbarians while they fought in the nake themselves in old time. They used to have a shield, a blanket and a spear, and a pair of sandals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
- Now, would anyone believe that the Celts, one of those Barbarians, actually sold Romans armors? Or at least sold Romans iron ores.
Romans won not because they had better armor or technology. They won because of better organization and logistics. They won because:
1. they realized formation means it could protct each other and defeat larger force,
2. uniformity means they can count on each soldiers to do the part,
3. supplies means they could stay together long enough to defeat the enemy, while most barbarians tribes came together at time of war but if war dragged on, they would tend to disband or fight among themselves;
4. training means they could maneuver the army in flexible ways, instead of the ad-hoc "make battle line - charge" tactics we see so often in MTW and VI.
5. Wealth means they could afford to equipe their soldiers with best armors (even buy it from barbarians).
Now, shall I start it with the Greeks? Perhaps will talk about it another day...
Annie
Stefan the Berserker
11-25-2003, 17:04
Well the Units I count out of that report, their abilities and extra-Info I found:
Skirmishers
- Mostly Poor Farmers or liberated Slaves (called Lites in german, Thralls in Scandinavian), fighting in very crappy formation (simple Horde). They throw small Spears known as Gaesum or Anjo, which have a Botkin-Top that makes it impossible to pull them out of Flesh without causing more damage.
Lancemen
- Trooptype formed by the free and wealthy Farmers (Frilings in german, Karls in Scandinavian, Fyrds in English). They are discribed to have large Shields, work in Dense Formation (expecially the Wedge-Formation) and having a good charge. Their Organisation is mostly Identical to english Fyrds in Dark Age, but they also used the "Sax" as a Melee-Weapon. The Sax is a kind of dual-use Tool used as a Knife and a Dagger...
- Gastiz Cavallary
Mercenary Cavallary which also sees roman Service and keeps a good Armor. But they are not known to be very "Loyal". The Word Gastiz means "Gast / Guest" in modern Language.
- Noble Swordsmen
The germanics had a kind of Knighthood, which was formed out of aristocrathic Warriors who fill the same position as Paterii/Patronus in roman Society. They are usually grand Landowners and have more than just one Farm on which they let Thralls work on. Unlike their roman Counterparts they think low of loosing that great live, so they use armor and Fight with swords.
Berserkers
- Well the fanatic Friends we already loved in Viking Invasions, I guess all have a use for them
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Get some more Votes in here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
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Shall I post Images of germanic Items, that could be used to design their 3D-Models?
DemonArchangel
11-25-2003, 19:48
Yes, do those germanic units, i'll still kick the f**king daylights out of them as the Romans. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
The Wizard
11-25-2003, 20:54
I really don't see the problem in this.
People, if this is a sort of interactive history book, with only perfectly historically accurate things, we won't get another TW. Why? No sales = no money for another TW.
I mean, what's cooler? A badass halfnaked berserking barbarian with a REALLY big axe, or some boring little person with a shield and a stick? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Stefan the Berserker
11-25-2003, 21:29
Zitat[/b] ]I mean, what's cooler? A badass halfnaked berserking barbarian with a REALLY big axe, or some boring little person with a shield and a stick?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Realism is Cool, remember the scene in Raiders of the lost Arc when Indy simply shot that Saber-wageing Arab
The Wizard
11-25-2003, 21:38
Realism is only cool when the thing IRL is cool. The usual run-of-the-mill German at the time is not something I call cool, judging by the text. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I couldn't speak for others. In my post, I only point out how myths became more myths and then Holywoods blew it up out of proportion and then we have Arnie the Konan Barbarian. And I thought the fact the the Romans bought iron from the Celts was actually quite interesting.
Annie
kataphraktoi
11-26-2003, 16:30
Historical inaccuracy gives guys like us the reason to play TW - to mod and enjoy.
And for some of us to cut our teeth at modding.
And give us ammunition for a patch.
Stefan the Berserker
11-26-2003, 17:34
Zitat[/b] ]I really don't see the problem in this.
People, if this is a sort of interactive history book, with only perfectly historically accurate things, we won't get another TW. Why? No sales = no money for another TW.
I mean, what's cooler? A badass halfnaked berserking barbarian with a REALLY big axe, or some boring little person with a shield and a stick?
Reread the Report (Page 9):
"Another tactical formation, mixed units of horsemen and infantry, is reported by Caesar (Caes. BG I, 48). It
may have been in use before 58 BC, and stayed in use much later. This mixed unit of cavalry and infantry is
also mentioned by Tacitus: The best warriors were formed into elite units of 100 warriors on foot and 100
on horseback from each district (»PAGUS«, Germ. “Gau” ) They were called “hundreds” (»CENTENI«), and this
was a title of honour (Tac. Germ. 6)."
There are the Hundreds The 100 best Warriors of a Pagus (District) were combined to one Elite-Unit, so you can possibly imagine they were very berserking Barbarians They are mentioned by Caesar and Tacitus, so I is clear they existed.
By mixing the historic Root with fantasy of evil-wild Barbarians and a bit more Viking-like appearance you get what you wanted, even better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Through I guess RTW won't have Units with multiple Trooptypes, it would make Sense that the Hundreds are displayed by their Cavallary Version which can be ordered to dismount before Battle (this way you have both Types of Hundreds in one Unit, like Faris in MTW).
-------
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/nibb1.htm
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/bilder/nibb1.jpg
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/bilder/nibb4.jpg
I found this Picture on a Site about the Opera "Ring des Nibelungen". The design-drawing for the Character Hagen (Högni) and a Foto of the Actor wearing his Costume. I guess it would be the perfect Shape for an "Noble Swordsman" discribed in this topic Looks cool enough, doesn't it?
* Note: The Helmet wears Arrows, not Horns
Teutonic Knight
11-26-2003, 19:06
a question:
why do the options in all of your polls always end with an "" exclamation point?
Stefan the Berserker
11-29-2003, 12:52
Zitat[/b] ]a question:
why do the options in all of your polls always end with an "" exclamation point?
To turn them imperative, imperatives are stronger than normal sentences. Expecially in Request Topics an imperative is useful through the poll-option is already an order from the Consumer to CA.
But maybe it's just because I as a Prussian love the imperative to much... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Oppugnate Alea proeccite Hunde, wollt ihr ewig Leben? VORWÄRTS Skaftsjan Kails http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Stefan the Berserker
11-29-2003, 13:25
Now to Soldurii:
http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/caesar/gallic_e3.html
"And while the attention of our men is engaged in that matter, in another part Adcantuannus, who held the chief command, with 600 devoted followers whom they call soldurii (the conditions of whose association are these,—that they enjoy all the conveniences of life with those to whose friendship they have devoted themselves: if any thing calamitous happen to them, either they endure the same destiny together with them, or commit suicide: nor hitherto, in the, memory of men, has there been found any one who, upon his being slain to whose friendship he had devoted himself, refused to die); Adcantuannus, [I say] endeavoring to make a sally with these, when our soldiers had rushed together to arms, upon a shout being raised at that part of the, fortification, and a fierce battle had been fought there, was driven back into the town, yet he obtained from Crassus [the indulgence] that he should enjoy the same terms of surrender [as the other inhabitants]."
So says Caesar about the Celtic Soldurii who fought against him in Alesia.
www.sacred-texts.com/shi/bsd/bsd06.htm
"resembling in character the soldurii, whom Cæsar mentioned as existing in Aquitania, or the comitati, who, according to Tacitus, followed Germanic chiefs in his time; or, to take a still later parallel, the milites medii that one reads about in the history of Mediæval Europe. A Sinico-Japanese word Bu-ké or Bu-shi (Fighting Knights) was also adopted in common use. They were a privileged class, and must originally have been a rough breed who made fighting their vocation. This class was naturally recruited, in a long period of constant warfare, from the manliest and the most adventurous, and all the while the process of elimination went on, the timid and the feeble being sorted out, and only "a rude race, all masculine, with brutish strength," to borrow Emerson's phrase, surviving to form families and the ranks of the samurai. Coming to profess great honour and great privileges, and correspondingly great responsibilities, they soon felt the need of a common standard of behaviour, especially as they were always on a belligerent footing"
The Soldurii are oftenly compared with the Samurai, throughout their Honorcodex is mostly identical with the Bushido. The Point of having Celtic Samurais, read the Text and you'll see the Soldurii practiced Seppuku and had the same Clan-Structure, is unexpected by many people. So the Soldurii and Noble Soldurii MUST be in for Gauls and Britons in RTW (Remember: The Soldurii were forth-living in Scottish Clansmen).
Having the Soldurii for the Celts and the Edelings (>Comitati Dark Age).
Names: Well, incase of the Soldurii the original Name is lost. The Name "Soldurii" means "the sacered ones". For the Comitati/Germanic Nobles the Name is known -> Edelings. I think it should be used.
Well, aren't Celtic Samurais cooler than chosen Axemen? I guess 100% of us think they have more chances against Legionaires than the chosen Axemen
Stefan the Berserker
12-02-2003, 22:27
I got a simple Idea how to implant Tribes:
In Shogun and MTW Provinces have a Honorbonus, which adds +1 to Honor to the Units build there...
But this is only one of many attributes that define a Unit's Strength. Modders know this.
Honor
Armor
Melee
Attack
Defense
Discipline (UNFORMED, FORMED, PERFECTLY_FORMED)
To Display Tribes most Regions modyfiy the Numeral Value of these 6 Attributes on certain Units, in both directions -> +Points and -Points.
These Changes are displayed this way, you get a Message like this Sample if you do the rightclick:
---- Region 0 ----
This Region is known for...
...Its glorious:
Barbarian Archers (+3 Melee)
Noble Soldurii (+2 Assault, -1 Defense)
...Its poor:
Gaulish Equesters (-2 Defense)
This is an execuable System, able to create Regionspecific Diffrences on Units. Usable for all Factions, including the Romans. You have the choice to build your Troops there, where they are best
Hmmmmm... Maybe they could also try to implant the Region or City Names in the Generals RPG-Data.
The Wizard
12-04-2003, 17:58
Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Nov. 26 2003,16:34)]
Quote[/b] ]I really don't see the problem in this.
People, if this is a sort of interactive history book, with only perfectly historically accurate things, we won't get another TW. Why? No sales = no money for another TW.
I mean, what's cooler? A badass halfnaked berserking barbarian with a REALLY big axe, or some boring little person with a shield and a stick?
Reread the Report (Page 9):
"Another tactical formation, mixed units of horsemen and infantry, is reported by Caesar (Caes. BG I, 48). It
may have been in use before 58 BC, and stayed in use much later. This mixed unit of cavalry and infantry is
also mentioned by Tacitus: The best warriors were formed into elite units of 100 warriors on foot and 100
on horseback from each district (»PAGUS«, Germ. “Gau” ) They were called “hundreds” (»CENTENI«), and this
was a title of honour (Tac. Germ. 6)."
There are the Hundreds The 100 best Warriors of a Pagus (District) were combined to one Elite-Unit, so you can possibly imagine they were very berserking Barbarians They are mentioned by Caesar and Tacitus, so I is clear they existed.
By mixing the historic Root with fantasy of evil-wild Barbarians and a bit more Viking-like appearance you get what you wanted, even better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Through I guess RTW won't have Units with multiple Trooptypes, it would make Sense that the Hundreds are displayed by their Cavallary Version which can be ordered to dismount before Battle (this way you have both Types of Hundreds in one Unit, like Faris in MTW).
-------
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/nibb1.htm
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/bilder/nibb1.jpg
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/bilder/nibb4.jpg
I found this Picture on a Site about the Opera "Ring des Nibelungen". The design-drawing for the Character Hagen (Högni) and a Foto of the Actor wearing his Costume. I guess it would be the perfect Shape for an "Noble Swordsman" discribed in this topic Looks cool enough, doesn't it?
* Note: The Helmet wears Arrows, not Horns
The hundredmen..?
Stefan the Berserker
12-07-2003, 16:20
These Pictures come from an Opera, I suggested them as a Way how the Unit Germanic Nobles / Edelings might look like. But you can use them either for the Hundredmen...
Helmets with Arrows/Wings put on it were very popular within the germanics and slightly under the Vikings. Mostly the Arrows are misinterpreted as Horns.
Arrowed Helmets also appear in the Lord of the Rings Movie:
http://www.bmp-weta.de/images/big/weta95002.jpg
The Helmet on the right-top is a mixture between germanic Arrow-Style and the romano-Gaulish Helmet the late Legions used. Not usable in RTW, but a nice example how such thinks can look like... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The romano-Gaulish Helmet was invented by the Gauls, later adopted and improved by the Romans. I think that somehow the Noble Soldurii and the Gaulish Equesters (Cavallary) should wear a such a Helmet which the romans copied...
The Design of the Troops should be done more precisious and with a bit more creative. You can create really Cool Units for the Barbarians, that are much better than those created until now.
Barbarians were on the same technological Level as Dark Age Europeans and somehow had the same Culture, exepted of the Christianity. They could create Armor, Steel and good weapons. Their Feudal System and their relationship to nature differences them from the romans, which somehow seems to not appear in RTW as I see the Previews now...
Teutonic Knight
12-10-2003, 00:03
Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Nov. 29 2003,06:52)]
Quote[/b] ]a question:
why do the options in all of your polls always end with an "" exclamation point?
To turn them imperative, imperatives are stronger than normal sentences. Expecially in Request Topics an imperative is useful through the poll-option is already an order from the Consumer to CA.
But maybe it's just because I as a Prussian love the imperative to much... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Oppugnate Alea proeccite Hunde, wollt ihr ewig Leben? VORWÄRTS Skaftsjan Kails http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
gee, I'd not want to visit a Prussian Mcdonald's
WOULD YOU LIKE TO TRY OUR SPECIAL TODAY
WOULD YOU LIKE FRIES WITH THAT
HUH
WOULD YOU?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
The Wizard
12-10-2003, 20:17
Just to add to your little joke... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Not would, drop that
TRY OUR SPECIAL NOW NOW I TELL YOU, SCHWEINHUND
YOU'RE GONNA HAVE FRIES WITH THAT DAMMIT
NOW DROP DOWN AND GIMME 50 BEFORE YOU STUFF YOURSELF WITH THAT GREASE
Teutonic Knight
12-12-2003, 16:11
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Dec. 10 2003,14:17)]Just to add to your little joke... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Not would, drop that
TRY OUR SPECIAL NOW NOW I TELL YOU, SCHWEINHUND
YOU'RE GONNA HAVE FRIES WITH THAT DAMMIT
NOW DROP DOWN AND GIMME 50 BEFORE YOU STUFF YOURSELF WITH THAT GREASE
ROFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ Nov. 26 2003,12:06)]a question:
why do the options in all of your polls always end with an "" exclamation point?
I think that you are supposed to scream the poll questions as you read them. remember that stefan is a.) german, and b.) a berserker. the german language is best understood when it is yelled in an angry voice, and the berserker part goes without saying.
Stefan the Berserker
12-17-2003, 11:12
About the German Language:
Each Language has an unique Character, German is grammatically maybe the most complex Language. This allows a very precise Syntax. On the other Side the german Vocabulary and Pronounciation allows a very "dark" Way of speaking that was impossible in English.
If you once have a chance to whatch Star Wars in the English and in german Version, you'll see the Voice changes Darth Vaders character. The original Actor, a Brit, sounds very arrogant while the german Voice sounds like he is going to kill Luke any Moment. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Well, maybe If I'm once rich I'll form a McDonalds-Clone called "Mekkes". Selling german Specialities: "Platzer met Mostrich", "Wurscht met Pommes", "Kleene Flönz", "Ne' Broiler" and "Halef en' Hahn". Not to Forget -> "Pilsken" and "Alt". By Preorder I also Offer "Bismarcks Mittagstisch" (Otto von Bismarck was known to have three Steaks with Zigeunersauce, large Fries, Craut-Salat, a 0,5l Mug Pils-Beer and a Havanna Cigar for Lunch. This Plate serves the same Food, which will fill your stomach guaranteed )
About Units: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif CA
I'm still waiting for a Programmer posting in this Thread, you are loosing more and more Workingtime for Unitchanges until Autumm 2004 It's already Christmas 2003. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/santa.gif
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