New Tech Tree

[Re Berengario I]

The more unsatisfied experience in MTW is the tech tree as it is highly historically uncorrect.
It is based on the assumption that in middle-age there were nations like the assolutistic monarchies of the modern era (starting in late 1500) and I feel a bit out of middle-age acting like Colbert (the prime minster of Louis XIV) building forts, guilds and raising troops at my will in every province.
In reality in the West there were FEUDAL monarchies. This means that the King gave out part of his power and lands to feudal lords and in return he (teorically) would have some loyal (always teorically) armies raised at the expenses of those lords. The reasons behind this are multiple (german tribal mentality, alas the king being just the mightiest warrior amongst other equals, the impossibility to rule every piece of the kingdom without an adequate bureocracy, etc...) but the effect near the year 1000th was that the king could count just upon the land he PERSONALLY owned and most of the time was at the mercy of other feudal lords for raising a huge army, getting taxes from feudal provinces and so on. So the King of France was very weak because he could count just on his estates in the Ile de France and the Duke of Normandy, who teorically was under him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif, was a lot stronger because he personally owned most of the England and Normandy (and even more in the next years).
The same with the HRE, strong emperors were the ones with great personal estates (Saxonians, Franconians and Swabians), the other were little more than puppets in the hands of the Prince Electors.
This is the reason why no great power overcame the others in middle age, because they all were too busy fighting to keep their own feuds in line.

Returning to the game I would like to replicate this situation with a mod. It will need a lot of balancing but this is the idea.

You have basically four different trees for every province to build from:

1) Royal
This tree is based on four buildings (royal palace, royal estate, royal court, royal capitol [unique]). These buildings will allow you to produce royal troops at 200% cost (because they were mostly mercenaries in reality), but you don't have any people felicity (aka loyalty at the end) malus and you can build improved_farmland (you can improve just what you own). Every building will also have a maintance cost (a negative cathedral income) to represent the cost for the royal bureocracy and court.

2) Feudal
This tree will have the same structure as the above except that the feudal capitol won't be unique. With these buildings you can raise feudal troops at 100% cost (to represent the gifts that the king usually gave to his feudal lords to get them at his side on war). These troops will have valour bonus and moral malus to reflect that they aren't a national army but they are used to combat. Plus these building will have a negative influence to people's happiness , so they'll make provinces a lot more rebellious (as they really were). They'll also lower considerably agricoltural incomes to reflect that taxes are collected by the feudal lord and not the king.

3) Town
Imperial and/or semi-indipendent towns are the other structure based on real middle age history. They weren't under a feudal lord but the town itself was a feudal lord giving the king troops and taxes in return for protection and other gifts. I'll use to reflect it the already existing town buildings (Town Watch, Town Guard, Town Militia, County Militia) but they'll be linked to the merchant buildings chain (so not all the provinces could get them but just the most economically developed ones). They'll produce militia troops at 100% cost with a valour malus and a moral bonus. These buildings will also lower people happiness (more indipendent towns are more prone to rebel) but not as much as feudal buildings. They'll also lower considerably merchant incomes to reflect that taxes are collected by the towns and not the king.

4) Monastery
Lands were also owned by monasteries and abbeys which were exempted by taxes but should also provide troops if asked by the king. The buildings here are coenobium, monastery, abbey and chapter house.
These buildings will not have effects on people's happines (in fact they were the most loyal feudal lords IR) but will lower a lot agricoltural incomes to reflect tax exemptions. Troops will be the same that the feudal ones but they'll cost less (150%) and at the end of the chain some factions will have Order troops (Teutonics, Templars, etc.).

These buildings will be just for catholic factions, byzantines weren't completely feudals, commerce and monasteries were exploited early in time by the basileus becoming a sort of his private property. Muslims will have just royal and town trees plus the already existing fanatic troops linked to mosque and ribat(even if their emirs and vizirs were as rebellious as the western feudal lords, I'll think about it).

Other already working modifications in my mod are the eliminations of about every land bridges. I made Venice an island (as it really is) to prevent easy invasions (it lasted indipendent till Napoleon because of this) plus the creation of troops related to just one province (pechenegs cavalry in Moldavia for example) that could be used by about every faction but at a mercenary cost (200%).
Other ideas are the on the way but this is the basic modification of the actual MTW so I will gladly hear your suggestions and critics... so flame me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[torsoboy]

It looks good, but with so many disadvantages on the Royal tree, I'd personally not bother with upgrading my hometown (so to speak).

[Theredlemming]

Re Berengario I i feel you may be taking this game a tad to seriously? (no offense). Just realx and enjoy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

the red lemming

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Relating to Re Berengario I:

Have you any idea of the amount of work involved? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
And the attention not to skip anything or unbalance the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Well, if you can pull it off, it will be a GREAT achievment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Historically accurate to the extreme http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Re Berengario I]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Nov. 26 2003,13:57)]Relating to Re Berengario I:

Have you any idea of the amount of work involved? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
And the attention not to skip anything or unbalance the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
The work involved with creating new buildings and new units is not terrible. New buildings are easy to implement actually, the new units will be mostly copies of existing ones with bonus, malus added and some flavours.

For example the troop tree could be the following:

1) early period

a) royal troops
royal spearmen, royal archers, royal sergeants, royal man-at-arms, early royal knights
b) feudal troops
feudal spearmen, feudal archers, feudal sergeants, feudal man-at-arms, feudal knights
c) town troops
militia spearmen, militia archers, militia guards, militia man-at-arms, early town knights (or town milites as it would be historically correct)

2) late period
a) royal troops
royal crossbowmen, royal arbalester, high royal knights
b) feudal troops
chivalric sergeants, chivalric man-at-arms, chivalric knights
c) town troops
halbardiers, pavise crossbowmen, high town knights

etc, etc

Besides the only faction wich will have the royal, feudal, town and monastery tress will be the HRE, Italians won't have the royal tree (no kings in Italy in middle-age), French, England, Spain, Sicily and the Pope won't have the town tree (no free cities there), Swiss will have just the town tree, Danmark, Polands, Hungarians and Russians won't have the town and monastery tree. So the problem will be balancing all this mess http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif but at the end the struggle will be to overcome the verdict of history through your own ability... won't it be? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[shand994]

Re beranario

This sounds like a great idea. You should post this down in the dungeon(if u can) you will more likely receive a warmer welcome than the ney sayers here.
its always a great idea to try new things, without that we wouldnt have the great mods that we have nwo like the Nap mod, the medmod etc.

[shand994]

also if you need any help or questions answered dnt be afraid to ask in the dungeon. I suggest you read all the existing threads first and take a look at what other people ahve done. But i really like the sound of your idea. It will definately mix the game up and make it more interesint to play

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well, well... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

You got it all figered out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif



Quote[/b] ]So the problem will be balancing all this mess...
You got that right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif




Quote[/b] ]...but at the end the struggle will be to overcome the verdict of history through your own ability... won't it be?
A little bit of Medieval Torture, hei? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Man... ...I admire your patience http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

You have a long and hardous quest ahead, my son http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Re Berengario I]

Quote[/b] (shand994 @ Nov. 26 2003,17:38)]Re beranario

This sounds like a great idea. You should post this down in the dungeon(if u can) you will more likely receive a warmer welcome than the ney sayers here.
its always a great idea to try new things, without that we wouldnt have the great mods that we have nwo like the Nap mod, the medmod etc.
I wish I could http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but I'm still a weenie here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif so... if some moderator http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif would bring the thread to the Dungeon...

BTW, sorry for my acronym which is not easy to write... Berengario (Behrengar in longobardic) was a longobard noble, almost a brigand, who managed to become king of Italy when the Carolingian Empire entered its deep crysis and fled from the hungarians raiders into the walls of the town of Pavia in a very cowardly manner... Ahhhh, those were the days http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Norseman]

Actually, I've been working on a mod with a tech-tree pretty similar to what you suggest for quit some time.

Royal househould units and mercenaries are tied to royal court buildings, which can only be built in your major home-province. The castles will basicly represent feudal/provincial development, and give knights/landowners and their levy of basic low-tech infantry like spear and archers. Town militia buildings will represent level of urban development. Many important buildings like shipbuilders, gunsmiths, port, traders etc. are tied to the militia buildings, as well as better quality infantry.
Buildings like spearmaker, swordsmith, bowyer, horsebreeder etc. are removed. The player (and the AI) will then have far fewer options when choosing what to build. This actually makes balancing it all relativly easy, and as construction time pr. building will go up a lot the player can use less time on micromanagement and more on battles. The AI will also get more balanced armies, as one building-upgrade can give a wide selection of units; not just a spearunit or a crossbow.

The tech-tree is pretty much finished, I only need to balance it some more.

In addition to a new tech tree, I'm (a bit inspired by WesW's MedMod) making a pretty much uniqe unit-selection for each faction, confined to the factions historical provinces. Hopefully this will make world-domination more difficult. This work is now on about 50-60%.

Maybe some day the mod will be good enough to make it public, but it will take time...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

You know what? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

You both should share information or even make a mod-team...

Why not?
After all, your views on the game are similar

And then, realese it for everybody... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
And then, realese it for everybody...


You make it sound like you really want to play this mod yourself... Maybe you wanne help? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

It's ok for me if others wants to join me in making the mod, as it probably will improve the quality and ensure that it is finished before RTW. However it should be noted that so much work is already done, that the goals of the mod and the solution to achieve them will not be open for much change. It would simply be to much work to change that now.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe you wanne help?

Sure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But be warned...
I'm not much of a modder http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I never go further than CrusaderUnitProd or ProjectileStats.

As for other habilities:
-My best area is Photoshop, but those bif saving problems just burn away my patience http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
-I also work with 3DS MAX, but organic modeling for the description images is not my forte. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Tell me what kind of help do you need and I'll see if I can manage... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Re Berengario I]

Quote[/b] ]Quote
Maybe you wanne help?


Sure

I'm feeling a bit like a modders employment agency http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Quote[/b] ]those bif saving problems just burn away my patience

I'm experiencing the same thing, for some unknow reason there always some black dots around in the newly created images when displayed in the game panels(I noticed this problem in Medmod too, so I'm not feeling so dumb).

I noticed that if you drag an original bif into Bif Viewer it displays a pink background, the ones created with Purplegrab or readbif22b have a transparent background (and the black dots problem once used in the game). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif


Another thing I'll have to solve will be to have english loc files as I'm editing my italian version right now, but this will be easy to solve if some pietous guy here around will mail me the english loc files (they're not on the cds).

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I noticed this problem in Medmod too, so I'm not feeling so dumb
Good, me too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif



Quote[/b] ]I noticed that if you drag an original bif into Bif Viewer it displays a pink background, the ones created with Purplegrab or readbif22b have a transparent background (and the black dots problem once used in the game).
I've tried saving in all kinds of 256color modes (indexed, etc...) Nothing works The final *.bif is always a mess http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
But I only used readbif22b...
Is any of the others better?
Is that the problem? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif



Quote[/b] ]Another thing I'll have to solve will be to have english loc files as I'm editing my italian version right now, but this will be easy to solve if some pietous guy here around will mail me the english loc files (they're not on the cds).

Piety is my middle name http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
But you have to send me your e-mail...

[shand994]

Readbif has does not import the color pallete from the imported bmp. What i do is to open up an exsisting bof first to load the color palette into readbif. it then turns out ok. I think this may be your problem

What sort of images are you trying to create with it.

ie the Info_pics file, review_panel file or new textures file to go in the textures/men file

it may be an idea for you to check this thread out. it may help you out a bit. There is a lot of useful info in the dungeon, u shoudl really check it out

Definitive Guide to Unit Graphics (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=9968)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thank you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Once again, shand994 to the rescue http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

However, I'm going to ask a stuuuupid question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
What do you mean by bof?? What do you mean by opening an existing one?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The images I'm trying to create are the faction shields. Just that, nothing fancy... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

As for the link, thanks again... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[shand994]

Sorry I meant to say BIF

if its fac shields your after there is a thread in the dungeon about those too. Check it out.
What i meant by existing files, use readbif to open one of the original MTW files.

If you ever have questions etc. until you get promoted you CAN post questions in existing threads in the dungeon.

Fac Shields thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=26;t=10152)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'm getting repetitive but, thanks for the info http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
About the Dungeon: I've found out today that I could post, so I already did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Re Berengario I]

Quote[/b] ]Readbif has does not import the color pallete from the imported bmp. What i do is to open up an exsisting bof first to load the color palette into readbif. it then turns out ok. I think this may be your problem

What sort of images are you trying to create with it.


The bif I created are the unit and building icons for the review panel and the images for the info_pics.

I already read the topic and I followed the same path you described. The palette is fine and the imagine shows correctly in readbif, but in the game it displays correctly but with some random black dots (not so many, just a few).

If you open an original bif in readbif (i use the 22b version), don't make any changes and just save it with the same name you will have the same problems, so it's something wrong in the readbif saving routine.

I noticed the same problems even in Wes' Medmod new info_pics.

And if I use Bif Viewer (it's one of the CA's graphic utilities released for us modders, it's in the bifutils.zip here for download) it'll display an original bif with a pink (255 0 255) background while an edited bif with a black (i guess transparent) one. So even if the palettes are the same into readbif there's something different I can't get an idea of what http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif


Quote[/b] ]Quote
Another thing I'll have to solve will be to have english loc files as I'm editing my italian version right now, but this will be easy to solve if some pietous guy here around will mail me the english loc files (they're not on the cds).


Piety is my middle name
But you have to send me your e-mail...

alessandro.guerani@fastwebnet.it

Thanks in advance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[shand994]

Well I dunno what the problem is, i dont seem to get these bugs, but i have heard of it happeing.
Guess youll just have to keep trying.

[barocca]

bif bug
black dots,
the exact cause of these dots is unknown,

solution/workaround,
determine what colours the background for the bifs is going to be and paint the background onto the bif,
if you check my shogun beta mod you will where i have done exactly that in many files,
it wont be pefect, because you cannot get the cream to match exactly for review panel bif's, but at least you can get it to look presentable for most of them.

[Re Berengario I]

Quote[/b] ]bif bug
black dots,
the exact cause of these dots is unknown,

I made an experiment. I opened a bif in readbif22b and I saved it with a different name without changing anything.

Then I compared it with the original file in a binary editor. The problem is in the header:

First 2 bytes of the original bif are 1F F8

the first two of the saved with radbif are 00 00

I manually edited the bytes as in the original and voilà the pink background in Bif Viewer now shoes up even with the new file.

I'll check now if the black dots will disappear in the game.

Stay tuned.

[Re Berengario I]

Ok... Now I have pink dots instead than black ones.

So my guess is that the problem is in the palette format. If you compare the files you'll notice a lot of differences in the second part of the file.

I could have a look at the source code of readbif but this will mean that I should reinstall my C compiler... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I'm lazy... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[shand994]

I think u can get the source code from the downloads section. I THINK

[Re Berengario I]

Quote[/b] (shand994 @ Nov. 28 2003,04:31)]I think u can get the source code from the downloads section. I THINK

I also remember to have seen it... It's just that it's about 2 years that I don't write any line of code and I should reinstall all the stuff (that in perfect Microsoft style usually lead your system to insane permanent instability).

That's lazyness... I know... If only these ole amiga programmers of CA would use some more user friendly image format http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[shand994]

well hopefull when RWT comes out they will make it a little easier for us hey

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Re Berengario I]

Quote[/b] ]bif bug
black dots,
the exact cause of these dots is unknown

Barocca, if you're interested I found where the problem is and a solution which is not a workaround.

I made a save of the screen and I examined the image in the review panel. The dots are where there are just 1 or 2 pixels of the transparent color. They're correctly displayed in readbif though but I guess the game doesn't use exactly the same conversion routine that the program uses and reads those pixels as non transparent and thereby they're displayed with color stored in the position 0 of the palette (black for the bif created with readbif).

I exported the bif to bmp, loaded it in a paint proggy (I used Ulead Photoimpact), corrected the position 0 of the palette to pink (255 0 255), convert the image to 24 bit color, save as uncompressed 24 bit tga, drag the tga file into CA's purplegrab to create a bif. That bif displays in the game without black dots.

I'll convert all the bifs I made in this way, I think you can use any other paint program if it can save the image in uncompressed 24 bit color tga and provided you have fill all the transparent areas of your image with pink color. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Norseman]

Sorry for not responding until now Aymar de Bois Mauri. I'm in the middle of a exams period and haven't had much time to think about the mod lately.


Quote[/b] ]
Sure
But be warned...
I'm not much of a modder

Neither am I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Quote[/b] ]
I never go further than CrusaderUnitProd or ProjectileStats.

As for other habilities:
-My best area is Photoshop, but those bif saving problems just burn away my patience
-I also work with 3DS MAX, but organic modeling for the description images is not my forte.

I'm only using existing graphics, description images, unit icons, etc. (unless someone volunteers to make new ones - for 200 units; not very likely&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Instead of having unit description images with correct weapons, armour etc., I think i will make a standard description text that informs the player about the unit-stats.


Quote[/b] ]
Tell me what kind of help do you need and I'll see if I can manage...

From the top of my head I know of two things I could use a bit of help with later on:
1)Making a graphical illustration of the new tech tree.
Maybe a bit like the PDF-file in VI?
2)Pre-beta playtesting when the units and the first balancing is finished.
3)A name for the mod

Hope you're still interested. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Re Berengario I]

I'll keep all the workshops (armourer, spearmaker, etc.) in my tech tree as they are useful to differentiate between different levels of technology.

Out of example the Byzantines will have a lot more advanced workshops in my early startpos file.

My early era starts in the 1000 year and the Byz army was very heavy armoured then (mail of course) and expensive to mantain (and this is reflected in the game). The same with the Normans. What brought bad fate to the Byzs was that their enemies employed fast moving units.
When they lose about all the Anatolia after the battle of Manzikert they hadn't the money and the men needed to rebuild their former military power and so they resort to mercenaries even more than before and were forced to mantain a lot smaller army.

So when early feudal european countries will start with armourer level-1 workshops in Constantinople there'll be a level-2 one at last.

Maybe if they'll lost Anatolia and Nicea to the Sejulkids again they won't be able to spend 700 florins for a Menavlatoi unit (mail armoured pikemen), and if they'll do they could build it just in Constantinople and Greece, while Muslims could raise chep but fast berber lancers cavalry all around the NorthAfrica.

Being historically accurate sometimes makes things balanced by themselves http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Sorry for not responding until now Aymar de Bois Mauri. I'm in the middle of a exams period and haven't had much time to think about the mod lately.
No problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I also run out of time to mod and play... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif




Quote[/b] ]...unless someone volunteers to make new ones - for 200 units; not very likely
It would take me about 2 years for that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
And I couldn't garanty quality... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif




Quote[/b] ]Instead of having unit description images with correct weapons, armour etc., I think i will make a standard description text that informs the player about the unit-stats.
Yeah, much quicker and more practical.




Quote[/b] ]1)Making a graphical illustration of the new tech tree.
Send me the data...




Quote[/b] ]2)Pre-beta playtesting when the units and the first balancing is finished.
If you're willing, I'm sure lots of people in the ORG would test it for you...




Quote[/b] ]3)A name for the mod Let me see... ...huuuummmm... ...what about NorseManMOD? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Seriously now. What about HistoricalMOD? Or FeudalMOD?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I'll keep all the workshops (armourer, spearmaker, etc.) in my tech tree as they are useful to differentiate between different levels of technology.
Of course If some of the work is already done, why not to use it?



Quote[/b] ]Out of example the Byzantines will have a lot more advanced workshops in my early startpos file.
What about balancing issues?



Quote[/b] ]So when early feudal european countries will start with armourer level-1 workshops in Constantinople there'll be a level-2 one at last.
I agree. Good idea. Historical accurate of course...



Quote[/b] ]Maybe if they'll lost Anatolia and Nicea to the Sejulkids again they won't be able to spend 700 florins for a Menavlatoi unit (mail armoured pikemen), and if they'll do they could build it just in Constantinople and Greece, while Muslims could raise chep but fast berber lancers cavalry all around the NorthAfrica.
Again, I agree.



Quote[/b] ]Being historically accurate sometimes makes things balanced by themselves.
Have you tested it yet?
It might not just be like that and lots of balancing issues might be necessary.

[Re Berengario I]

My heavy cavalry (Klibanoroi... those in vanilla MTW are called Kataphractoi) was heavily spanked by cheap muslims archers and spearmen in the desert.

It depends a lot on which kind of terrain you have as battleground. Desert is hell for heavy cavalry.

I should test if the AI makes good use of fast units. Byz units are heavy and if the muslims used the right tactic they're piecemeal (as they were against the arabs first and the sejulquids).

If the AI uses the frontal attack style, well... there's nothing I can do...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]My heavy cavalry (Klibanoroi... those in vanilla MTW are called Kataphractoi) was heavily spanked by cheap muslims archers and spearmen in the desert.

It depends a lot on which kind of terrain you have as battleground. Desert is hell for heavy cavalry.

I should test if the AI makes good use of fast units. Byz units are heavy and if the muslims used the right tactic they're piecemeal (as they were against the arabs first and the sejulquids).

Good to know that Byz are balanced... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
What about the other factions?
Have you tried them?

[Norseman]

To understand why I'm removing the spearmaker, bowyer, swordsmith, horse_breeder, armourer and metalsmith, taverns and brothels, and some more..., one must know some of the goals of the mod:

1)Make it harder for the human player to beat the AI:

In the vanilla game the AI didn't handle teching up to well. The human player can plan what types of units should be trained in each province, thus teching up and get good units much earlier than the AI. Ever heard someone complain about huge AI armies of peasants and simple spearmen/archers, even in HIGH or LATE?? By making the tech tree much simpler, combined with the fact that units will no longer require combinations of several building types to be trained, the human player will no longer be able to get the good quality units that much faster than the AI.

By almost removing metalsmith and armourer the human player can no longer train huge armies of cheap low-tech units with lots of armour and weapon upgrades. A simple spearunit remains a simple spearunit. If you can add +4 to armour and +4 to weapons you will no longer have regular spearmen, but rather something like SAP's.

AI armies will(hopefully) be more balanced, as tech-level-buildings can give a wide range of unit types. I mean, it is not very historical to be able to produce feudal sergeants only in a given province. If you are catholic and have a keep, you will for example maybe be able to train feudal knights, their professional mounted sergeants and the poor quality feudal levy of archers and spearmen. If you add level 2 town militia, you can maybe train better quality militia spearmen and crossbowmen as well.

As I'm also making unique units for each faction, confined to the factions historical regions, I avoid the problem of the AI spending valuable money and time on building completely unuseable buildings in provinces it can't get any units from. The human player will of course understand this, and only build economical buildings.


2)Spend less time on micromanagement and more on battles in SP campaign:

I felt the agents was a bit to powerful in the vanilla game. Train 10 inquisitors and let them do their work in 10-20 years and the enemy faction has no generals left. Most agents will now be tied to the royal_court building, which is unique. It is now much harder for the human player to flood the enemy with agents, starting rebellions and killing off his generals. The player will now use his/her agents more carefully and sparingly.

Simpler tech-tree and fewer buildings results in much longer building times for each building, and the human player can use less time on buildings and micromanagement.

Lots more to say, but i'll have to log off now...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Ever heard someone complain about huge AI armies of peasants and simple spearmen/archers, even in HIGH or LATE??

Well, you could just put something like WesW did: a Muster Field (low priority) to train peasents. And it's only available after you've build the 60% agricultural improvement.




Quote[/b] ]By making the tech tree much simpler, combined with the fact that units will no longer require combinations of several building types to be trained, the human player will no longer be able to get the good quality units that much faster than the AI.
But that means focusing on the Tactical Battle and making a simplification of the Strategic Map. I am very fond of the strategical part, so I'm having dificulty relating to those changes.





Quote[/b] ]By almost removing metalsmith and armourer the human player can no longer train huge armies of cheap low-tech units with lots of armour and weapon upgrades. A simple spearunit remains a simple spearunit. If you can add +4 to armour and +4 to weapons you will no longer have regular spearmen, but rather something like SAP's.
As stated above, I don't agree either. If you put a plain SAP against a +4Armour+4Weapon Spearmen who would you think will win?
Those A/W improvements aren't that significative...




Quote[/b] ]As I'm also making unique units for each faction, confined to the factions historical regions, I avoid the problem of the AI spending valuable money and time on building completely unuseable buildings in provinces it can't get any units from. The human player will of course understand this, and only build economical buildings.
I agree on this point. The concept of Homelands for building specific units is essencial to an historical accurate game as well as a balanced one (much harder to conquer, much easier to defend).




Quote[/b] ]I felt the agents was a bit to powerful in the vanilla game. Train 10 inquisitors and let them do their work in 10-20 years and the enemy faction has no generals left. Most agents will now be tied to the royal_court building, which is unique. It is now much harder for the human player to flood the enemy with agents, starting rebellions and killing off his generals. The player will now use his/her agents more carefully and sparingly
You might have a point in here...

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
Well, you could just put something like WesW did: a Muster Field (low priority) to train peasents. And it's only available after you've build the 60% agricultural improvement

Actually, I'll remove the peasants as a trainable unit completely. It will only appear in rebellions etc. IMO it just don't sound right to use peasants as garrison forces to prevent peasant rebellions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif But that is not the issue here, cause I'm not just talking about the peasants. The point is that the AI often have huge armies of low-tech units, while the human player has CMAA,CS, Knights etc. IMO that makes long, boring battles, with a pretty much pre-given result. You can't just make all these low-tech units hard to get for the AI, cause then it won't have any units in the first 100 yrs. Hope you see my point.


Quote[/b] ]
But that means focusing on the Tactical Battle and making a simplification of the Strategic Map. I am very fond of the strategical part, so I'm having dificulty relating to those changes.

I understand that, and agree to some point. That is what I think makes the TW games so great, the combination of strategy and tactics(and history). But I want some opposition as well. I'm bored with fighting huge battles I know the outcome of before I even start; fighting with elite units against crappy spearmen. Then again I really like the strategic influence on the battles(and the other way round), and don't want to lose that by simply playing MP.


Quote[/b] ]
As stated above, I don't agree either. If you put a plain SAP against a +4Armour+4Weapon Spearmen who would you think will win? Those A/W improvements aren't that significative...

Sure about that? Let's look at the stats:
Plain SAP with full rank bonus: Melee(4),Defence(9),Armour(4),Morale(6)
Spearmen with ranks, large shield, +4 weapon&armour, +4 morale(churches++): Melee(-1+1+4=4),Defence(-1+2+2+4=7),Armour(1+4=5),Morale(0+4=4)

You see, it's not that big difference. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But again that's really not the point. What you need to consider is availability. The spearmen you can train for 150 florins anywhere, and 50 florins in upkeep. A SAP unit can ONLY be trained in Switzerland in LATE period, for a staggering price of 750 and upkeep on 60. In other words the human player can tech up much faster and make huge armies of cheap superunits. I have used this strategy a couple of times, and believe me; you can really sweep the map fast doing this... So fast that it's really not fun anymore http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]IMO it just don't sound right to use peasants as garrison forces to prevent peasant rebellions You can't just make all these low-tech units hard to get for the AI, cause then it won't have any units in the first 100 yrs. Hope you see my point.
OK I see your point... --------> .

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
Isn't there another way for the AI to tech up faster?
Like increasing building priorities?

Sure. I think that's partly what WesW did in his MedMod. But there's still other problems left, like balanced and varied Ai armies. The problem is that the AI need to consider several priority numbers, and these combinations are hard to balance. First, it is what buildings the AI will start to build. Then it is what buildings it prefers to build in connection with those buildings already built. This doesn't always work out that well. I have often seen AI regions with for example Armourer2, Horse_breeder2 and bowyer, or other combinations that doesn't really give that many units. Or maybe the AI builds the same buildings in most of its regions and get unbalanced armies. After a while the AI will of course build something that makes things right, but in the meantime the AI faction has lost valuable time, money and LAND The Human player is good at exploiting that.

I haven't played WesW's latest versions, and I hear they are good mods that adress many of these problems. But I started work on my mod before VI, and now I want to see how it works out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]
What difficulty do you play?

It's been a long time since I actually played without modding, but the last time it was a expert game as the Irish in VI. Built tons of gallowglasses and loaded them with armour and honour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif With some upgrades and a fine general, they can trash viking huscarles.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]After a while the AI will of course build something that makes things right, but in the meantime the AI faction has lost valuable time, money and LAND The Human player is good at exploiting that.
That's why we are the dominant species on the planet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
At least, right after bacteria... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif



Quote[/b] ]I haven't played WesW's latest versions, and I hear they are good mods that adress many of these problems.
Yes. There are MODs that can balance the game pretty well.



Quote[/b] ]But I started work on my mod before VI, and now I want to see how it works out. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Of course you should http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I was just sugesting some easier solutions to certain problems...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]It's been a long time since I actually played without modding, but the last time it was a expert game as the Irish in VI. Built tons of gallowglasses and loaded them with armour and honour With some upgrades and a fine general, they can trash viking huscarles.
Forgot to mention, Expert is a no-no for me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
True, I've never tried it in Campaign Mode. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
But that means that my expectations about the difficulty of the game are very different from yours.