a screen infront/behind the guns

[tootee]

Often I see players use a 1/2 row of YS/NAG infront/behind the lines of gun. I assume they are there to:

1. prevent the "uncertain" musk from routing due to a sudden cav charge-fake?

2. sacrifice as a buffer to absorb stray bullets so that those main melee troops behind get hit less by the stray?

3. morale bonus for the gunners?

is that why u use it?

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tootee the goldfish
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[Shoko]

All 3 in a certain way.

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

[evilc]

yeah, but surely not INFRONT of the guns???

In front of guns? Erm. I've seen some using 2/3 ys as shield...and I laugh at it. Many seem to think that YS are just protecting your guns, it's a good thing and it has no repercussions. Oh well, wrong. The morale of those shield-units will be crap and the overall morale of your army will decrease many times causing a general rout when enemy charges...*sigh*.

I don't like wasting units behind guns...but some use them to reduce background kills, to give some morale to guns and as a deterrent to sudden cav attacks.

Personally I don't use it, I set up my shock troops a bit far from guns and fast cavs at the flanks to do flanking jobs + protect my guns.

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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser. http://terazawa.totalwar.org/malta_md_clr.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)

[tootee]

Yes EvilC I met people who use them in front too, that's why i'm wondering their effectiveness.

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tootee the goldfish
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[Krasturak]

The screen in front can be very effective on a strong slope.

The guns are effective, they are protected from charges, and the friendly fire hits are low.

On level ground, it also can work, but effect of both guns and FF are worse.

[theforce]

Well if someone puts his ys in front of his guns you can easily aim for them when they are weak enough a cav attack will send them running and the guns will be left there alone to die http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[evilc]

if you are a musket man behind a line of troops, and your shooting at the enemy, your bullets have to get through your 'shield' troops..... use a ys or two behind them as a cav deterant, but keep the main body of the army fairly close. Also depends on your style of play.

[solypsist]

shields only work if you're shootoing over your own men, not through them. so find a hill and camp out wiht your muskets.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

of course this becomes a problem when ur guns are at the top of the hill, u shields half-way up and the enemy at bottom. Then you have to fire through ur own units. So its a matter of timing.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[Krasturak]

It's also a matter of psychology.

If you care more about your guns, protecting them with other units makes sense.

Also, you can sometimes trick the enemy by forcinghim to directly target the guns, then withdrawing the guns which pulls his missile troops closer. Tricky, but very interesting when effective.

Another interesting feature is the comparison between losses from overshots and friendly fire kills with the guarding melee in front or behind the gunners.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

I played a custom battle once on a map I cannot remember. It turned out 3v3 and i was on a low hill near the back of the map.(in the middle)

I had with me 2 arques 2 musks and 4 archers, plus the usual entourage of YS and WM plus 2 ND to counter attack.

I stationed my arques half-way up the hill and my musks at the lip of the hill. This pretty much meant that theycold fire at about the same range(arques further forward) and so my fire power was immense. IT WAS A FINE DAY!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

My arhcers were to the sides of the musks at 90* angle. So the shape of a 'U' when moving towards me from the front. (U of musks and archers with arques like an underline)My ND were placed flanking the archers so tht the could move in behind any advancing enemy when the tim was right. Behind the musks i had 1WM in the middle with 2YS(one each side)and 2NAGS (on the outside of the YS)

this left me with one YC unit to hang back in the centre and support which ever flank was breaking first.

This formation was very defensive, but my guns never had to retreat because of attacks, because no unit could get close enough to me. The archers held the flankers at bay, te guns stopped any frontal assault, and if they did get to the bottom of the hill my melee men could charge down and get an added charge bonus,plus they were not tired. If I can find that map again i'll tell you which one. Its not an original map, one made by sumone (theforce rings a bell).

My guns were put on hold position, and the battle ended where i had sumthing like 1000 kills (100 men units) and lost something like 20 men.

Smooth...... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[theforce]

Well nebu it seems that you had a serious firepower there with 4 archers and 2 guns and 1 arq. If you had changed those arq with 2 more guns it would have been more powerful.
Well it must be totoni then since it has a nice hill in the defenders side. I don't want to know though what it would happen if the attacker decided to attack from your side and from the trees though.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[TakedaShingen li]

thats some fire power i use the ys to protect the guns when they shooting at your guns the ys will get blown away the guns not coulb be why he put the ys like a shield. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Takeda:cavalary legend

[theforce]

They could build a 1m wall and kneel and shoot. That would offer a lot of protection. :P

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[LordTed]

People who use units shields i say free kills. Set up cav for counter charges and place main force further behind guns so bullets wont kill people at the back.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

You wanna talk about firepower? I had 4 Musket men and 5 high honour archers. Also had 4 beefed up Ashigaru and 3 HC.

The musket men made up the front of my line, I was on offense so I chouldn't make some brillant defensive set up. I found mself just getting up over that lil hill towards the defenders. I put my guns on its ridge my archers under the hill. This was because my enemy had..5-6 Musketmen. My archers fired up from under the protection of the hill and just showered arrows haphazardly while my poor musketmen braved the firefight for as long as possible. Eventually he charged my men and things got messy cause i wasn't prepared. My ashigaru was forced to hold the center until my Archers chould march in behind them and fight. Things went ok except for my left flank. A nodachi had found a weak point in my center left flank. Luckily a single Archer unit held the center left flank from the Nodachi long enough for my center Ashi/Archers to rout the center whom was mainly ashi and a couple units of YC. My Archers/HC held the far left flank from the other Nodachi while my rightt flank wasn't even attacked.

Back on topic, I don't defend my musketmen much because they often form the head of my formation. The idea is to skirmish with them then have my melee run through there lines and attack while my musketmen pull back. Normally my men run through the lines..a lil to late. ^^;;

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[This message has been edited by Katasaki Hirojima (edited 01-28-2002).]

[TakedaShingen li]

i had some fire power when i used 6 guns i know that a sighn of no skill hiding behind your guns so i now take 3 or 4 guns its harder too win but more fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Takeda: boil you alive :evil

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Takeda:cavalary legend

[TakedaShingen li]

how can you do the thing with the pic i got a ronin face i want a pic iff takeda and that it says takeda cavalary legend.

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Takeda:cavalary legend

[Vanya]

GAH! Nags in front of guns makes perfect sense. Nag armor has many little grooves that circumvent the chest plates. Skilled gunners can shoot the bullets into these grooves. When they enter, the centripetal force they experience as a result causes them to accelerate, so that when they emerge 360 degrees later, their speed has doubled. This way, a simple arquebusier can extend his range beyond that of a musket. And as arquebusier balls are bigger than musketeer balls, the force of impact will be far greater due to the ball's augmented inertia.

Then add the ricochet effect, and nags can also make an ordinarily ineffective volley into the equivalent of a massive grapeshot at close range.

SOOO.... that is just another reason why nags are so versatile. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[evilc]

lol, I'm really going to have to try that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Gothmog]

One of my favorite technique is to place a thin line of Naginata in front of twice as many arquebusiers.

This is basically a refined version of Vanya's trick. For each naginata soldier, there are two peasants shooting from exactly opposite sides, one from left and one from right. The lead balls (or if the peasants have real good aim, two additional meat balls as well) pick up speed, while their impact on the naginata soldier cancel each other, holding him still even long after he is dead.




[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 01-28-2002).]

[Vanya]

ROFLMAO

[TakedaShingen li]

hm.. me no get it i just put a nag in thin line in front off guns when they fire att your nags they will die but your guns will not so you will win the gun fight and so they need to rush and in tha rush they will be pounded with guns.

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Takeda:cavalary legend

[evilc]

your choice of course, but the peasants cost less and are more expendable, losing the gunfight doesn't mean you always lose the battle.

[evilc]

in a gunfight, those nags would be ignored, and would just die and waste a whole unit winning a gunfight.

units in front of guns = stupid
unit(s) behind guns = good if done right

[shingenmitch2]

GAH it's "Takeda: CAVALRY legend!"

And if you want the TRUE Takeda motto it's:

"Swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as a fire, steady as a mountain."

But the Deadly Shingen reserve the rights to that...

[shogunnewbie1]

Quote Originally posted by tootee:
Yes EvilC I met people who use them in front too, that's why i'm wondering their effectiveness.

[/QUOTE]

I seen people use " nag melle " in lose formation and win but it says that nag are bad vs guns .... also I charge in LOSE all the time then no contact I close and it works very well I think

[evilc]

if the enemy sees u putting anyone in front of guns they immidiatly think, wehay, free win.

[Tac]

The Takeda Clan was brought to its doom by guns. Oda Nobunaga simply massacred the Takeda troops with them.