Caledonia Total War mod

[Duke Malcolm]

If anyone is interested, I am making a new mod, and although I have enquired about certain things to do with this mod before, it seems as though the power of christ compelled me to start a topic about my mod, as many seem to have done before. It will be start when Scotland turned into the country we don't know and love today, when it changed from Albany or something, to Scotland, and looked relatively like modern Scotland. I am open to suggestions, for anything, and if anyone wants to help (which I doubt) then they can. But now, I have to go and become a qualified first-aider with the St Andrew's Ambulance Association, and will be back on tomorrow, at 4 o'clock.

[jagmaster]

u talking about a scotland with highland clans and each having provinces and lowland families with their lands?

if u are then i am interested.

[Scipio]

when you put it that way Jagmaster it does seem pretty good

[Lord De Moray]

Hi all,

I take this would require a whole new map?

'the Northern Scot'

Lord De Moray

[dclare4]

I did plenty of preliminary research on a clan based Scottish Jacobite rebellion total war thingee with clansmen vs redcoats. The map stopped me cold unfortunately as any mapping efforts I've made have CTD more times than I can remember and I don't care to bust my comp up. So if you're working on one I can help you out there.

Clare

[komninos]

Well I don't think a Scottish map would be a big job ... If you have the map, the info for it (rivers landscapes, etc), Clan lands (political situation). You can put a Request in the Mapping Library Project thread.

I would recommend a map the would reach at least till the midlands with the East part of Ireland and the northern islands.

[dclare4]

That would be cool I was actually toying with using either the Europe map or Barocca's Shogun map as a stopgap. Yeah it should reach at least as far south as... London?

Clare

[Duke Malcolm]

Hi. If you want to know, I can now treat a broken foot, but anyways, I have a satellite map, which has a bit of Ireland (as far east as donegal, letterkenny I think. I have put in some regions (Tayside, Fife, Stirling, Caithness, Kintyre,Arran, Uist, Harris, Lewis (one of the two latter is in 2 parts), Skye, and Ireland), although I am having a bit of trouble, where LMM doesn't recognise mainland Scotland regions (Aaaargh) and stops when it writes the maptex files. But nevertheless, other work is going on fine (with the exception of clan flags, and shields, because I think that I might have to apply to the Court of the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, and even then I could only use the MacDonald, and I am a bit worried about being sued by Clan Chiefs if I use them anyway from the net)

[Duke Malcolm]

And it goes as far south as Carlisle or something, it goes a good bit south, at least to Carlisle I think, but not to London.

[jagmaster]

i like the of the jacobites v redcoats idea too, cause that was a "total war" situation with the jacobites trying to take over britian.

u obviously couldn't stick to the historical realism with that.

some other stuff i was thinking about relating to this mod in general. it would make it interesting to have each clan have its own unique unit, like "Cameron of Lochiel" would have a short building time and a large unit and a valour bonus because they were a numerous people and reasonablily well equipped.

in a jacobite v redcoat game u would only have two factions and the provinces devided up between them and the jacobites would be able to train highland units, (unique stats for each clan) and lowland jacobite family lands would provided militia and cavalry. would make an interesting game.

anyway thats my tuppince worth of ideas just now.

[TheSilverKnight]

I like the sound of this mod..would be good in the late 16th century-1761 or something along that line. Would be dashing good fun But I like the Medieval Scotland idea too.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[dclare4]

Will update everyone when I have more time to write but suffice to say I've listed out the clans and units - there are actually several factions differentiated by religion (actually political affiliation) - Whig (ie English government clans mainly the Campbells of Argyll and the Douglases of Drumlanrig/Clydesdale, plus the English government w/c is the POPE player), Jacobite (naturally those loyal to exiled James mainly the Drummond/Stuart faction and various other clans for w/c it was convenient to be Jacobite including the tiny but fierce Camerons and the contentious MacDonalds - there are actually two MacDonalds, Keppoch and Sleat), Moderates or Scottish Nationalists (mainly the Clan Graham of Montrose and Clan Murray of Atholl) and - no faction but buildable units - the fierce Covenanters. At least 8 playable factions and a bunch of minor clan rivals.

More laterz,
Clare

[dclare4]

Each has it's own 'unique unit' w/c is actually a minor clan that adhered to the major clans, best example being the Clan Mackenzie, Earls of Seaforth w/c encompassed the North of Scotland. Their 'unique unit' will be the 'Wild Macraes', historic castellans of Eileen Donan and nicknamed the 'Seaforths mailed shirt' for their loyal adherence to the Seaforth Mackenzie cause.

Clare

[Duke Malcolm]

Hi again. I will keep making the map, and you can do the unit stuff then. I get scared of the unit files, cause I've screwed them up before.

[TheSilverKnight]

is this going to be a Medieval Age Mod or an Englightenment (1600-1750) Mod?

[Lord De Moray]

I'm having a good read here

Have you ever thought of doing the Bishop wars or the Wars of the Covenant, in short the Civil War in Scotland and the Montrose Campaigns 1600-1650 ish.

Lots of good units that could be made, Lancers, Pistols(mounted), Dragoons, Pike and Shot, Highland bands and some Irish.

Just thought it was a good period to look at.

Regards,

Lord De Moray

[Duke Malcolm]

I think that I should do the Clan Wars (1093?-1603), the Wars of the Covenant (1603?-1650?), and finally the Jacobite Rebellion (not entirely sure) or the last two could be combined (I think) (1603?-1746)

[TheSilverKnight]

the clans wars wouldn't take too much work, but the 1606-1746 one would require adding whole new units, and making the game basically into a total conversion, because you'd need more than 10 new units to make a good Jacobite Rebellion MOD

[dclare4]

Actually the Bishops war and the Wars of the Covenant would be great topics but I believe more in the time period of Mr.Egg's ECW mod. The Covenanters are covered in this Highlander Total War mod and both sides (Govt and Jacobite) can build them but they may be more trouble than they're worth

Let's see if I can remember the factions off the cuff...

WHIG/GOVT

HANOVERIAN King (POPE)- but I may just dispense with this unless we can tweak the Glory Goals so you don't need a Conquer the Entire map to win this thing. Basically control isolated garrisons in the critical areas of Stirling, Edinburgh and Inverness as well as the highland Forts.

CAMPBELL Duke of Argyll - is the 'active' force for the government controlling the strategic Argyll region at the expense of his neighbors. Generally controls the majority of the 'Whig' clans including the Mackays, Rosses, Robertsons, etc. in the North (and holds their territory&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

DOUGLAS Marquess of Clydesdale/Earl of Drumlanrig - less powerful than in the days of The Bruce and now hated Whig lackeys, they have a chance to return to their glory days.

NATIONALIST/MIDDLEGROUND

MURRAY Duke of Atholl - The Dukes of Atholl are in a somewhat tricky position. They owe their land and title to the ruling power but their lands and vassals are staunchly Jacobite. Murray can afford to sit on the fence and declare his loyalty at the right time - or not.

GRAHAM Marquess of Montrose/Viscount Claverhouse - The fiery Grahams are foremost in the struggle for Scottish independence and are not adverse to exploiting the ambitions of the Jacobites to serve their purposes.

GORDON Marquess of Huntley/Duke of Gordon - something of a fence sitter but nonetheless owes his title to the Sassenach. Has the only decent cavalry country in Scotland and can raise the only decent cavalry (excepting of course the Grey Dragoons and the Sassenach Dragoons).

ERSKINE Earl of Mar - probably will be a subordinate of one of the other factions. Each clan has a 'close ally' or subordinate clan that it can 'raise' for instance the Campbells can raise the Dalyrimples (Earl of Stair), the Douglases can raise the Hamiltons (Duke of Hamilton), the Frasers can raise the MacPhersons, etc.

JACOBITES

DRUMMOND Duke of Perth - the old court gallants and fanatic loyalists of the Stuarts. They actually 'lead' the JACOBITE faction and can raise the STUARTS of APPIN clan.

MACDONALD of Keppoch, Glengarry and Clanranald - once legendary Lords of the Isles, their fondness for plunder and spitting in everyone elses eye split their clan in twain and got them in trouble with their neighbors particularly the rapacious Campbells.

MACDONALD of Sleat - Minor faction, holds the isle of his own cause. Can raise the Clan Macleod (I am Duncan...)

MACKENZIE of Seaforth - their vast lands are larger than some European principalities. Married into a solid northern power-base including their cousins the Ross clan (former Earls of Ross), their hereditary pipers, the Mackays (despite the majority of the clan being 'Whig), and of course the 'Seaforths Mailed Shirt' the Wild Macraes who hold the mighty island fortress of Eileen Donan.

CAMERON of Lochiel - this warlike clan raises the best fighting men. Unfortunately internecine struggles and the poverty of their land prevent them from becoming more powerful than they are.

FRASER of Lovat - the devilish and ambitious Lord Simon Fraser, an intriguer, wife-beater, rapist, suspected Jacobite yet conniving with the Whigs, it is said he will do anything to win. Nonetheless he is close to his people and to the disaffected clans of the north including the Robertsons of Struan, the Gordons of Glenbucket and the MacPhersons of Cluny.

MACGREGORS - their warlike attitude got them into seriously hot water and their name has been banned from Scotland They are great at ambushes (are the battlefield ninjas of the mod) and good fighters. Not a clan in themselves, some clans can construct a SHELTER THE MACGREGORS building to gain use of their services.

The time period should probably stretch from the Glorious Revolution to the end of the 45.

Important here are the buildings. Like with the WotR mod I had planned before they are more 'ideas' than actual structures. Religion will actually represent political affliation and clans can 'ally' themselves with either the government or the jacobites by building a 'God Save the King' loyal toast building or toasting 'The King Over the Water'. The Government is somewhat corrupt and there will be some structures that will lower happiness but net you cash.

Of vital importance as well is rising in societal stature (shades of Barry Lyndon) where you will have to build buildings that grant titles to progress. The first title you must achieve is chieftainship of the clan, represented by the hereditary clan name (in Gaelic where I could find it) such as Caberfae (The Deers Head) for the Mackenzies or Am Greamach Mor (Chief of the Grahams) etc.

Less emphasis on open battle as units, especially government regiments, will be very expensive. Money I think should be less a tangible thing as a concept which I call prestige or popularity. For instance government soldiers will cost an arm and a leg to be sent to the highlands but once there don't need too much in support costs. Highlanders however, fight well (the legendary highland charge) and are relatively cheap to raise but the support costs will kill you and force you to disband the 'superflouous' units, simulating their rapacity and plundering making them unpopular (not to mention costly&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and their penchant for deserting, driving home stolen cattle before them.

To police your lands there are several paramilitary options including Highwaymen (mounted pistol armed gangs), Highland Watchmen (like Rob Roy), Wild Highlanders (Berserkers), Armed Mobs (Ghazis?) etc. The government only has a few full garrisons at major locations, the rest are mostly platoons of infantrymen (govt troops but only 20 or so of them).

What do you chaps think?
Clare

[Duke Malcolm]

I think that's great http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[dclare4]

What have they said about the map? My plan is to use as much of the original units as possible though I'm running into some trouble adapting the stock European campaign units to Viking invasion.

Clare

[Duke Malcolm]

Sorry for not replying for a while, I've been a bit busy, but nevertheless, I am making the map, and I'm about half way through it (I think). How are you getting on?

[dclare4]

Keep on getting stonewalled by the stupid diplomacy of the game. At best I can do the organizational stuff for the units, etc. as well as those Brit infantry I was working on before. I would have like to have them perform 'proper' musket drills but right now I'll just be happy if I can get them to shoulder arms like they should :-)

By the way what comments would you have about my 'theories' I mean are they wacked? Am I wacked? Are there things that are just right or things that are wrong. I mean, I'm not Scottish and all I know is basically from research, but I have done quite a bit of that and I hope I'm just not barking up the wrong tree.

We're working on Jacobite Total War right? Not the Robert the Bruce or Kenneth McAlpin one?

Clare

[dclare4]

Thats another reason I use a lot of 'sneaky means' such as spies, assasins, diplomats, ladies of ill-repute or otherwise, in addition to 'armies' of highwaymen, bandits, etc. so that all the factions can conduct 'low intensity war' with each other until one or can muster enough strength and 'clout' to either raise the flag of rebellion, or declare himself the voice of King George II in Scotland.

Clare

[Duke Malcolm]

a guy (conner macleod) is trying to start a clan war mod, perhaps we could join him.

ps. how many regions do you think for the campaign map, I think 50ish

[Duke Malcolm]

and yes, a jacobite mod, but the time period seems a bit short.

[Highlander X]

this mod sounds great. glad to see you haven't forgot about the western isles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

here's a link to a really good scottish map. colour coded and everything. i've got a couple others from other sites too, but this scottish national library site should be all you guys need.

http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/map/early/scotland.cfm?id=864 (http://)

there's a couple maps on that site that show the clans and lords loyal to the crown or on the jacobite side during the revolt - with numbers of troops and everything, pretty cool.

[Duke Malcolm]

Thanks for that. I could never forget the Western Isles, most of the Gaelic speaking population is there, and that's where my clan comes from (or at least the clan that my sept belonged to)

[Duke Malcolm]

I was wondering if you want the mod as a replacement for VI, or as a new add-on. I think that the latter is harder though

[Kaatar]

Harder, but a great deal better. One thing that I've always wanted included with mods (I'm not sure if any has done it) is ... when I start I new campaign I get the option of playing the mod or normal version. Tha'd be the dream. *wipes tear*

[Duke Malcolm]

Um, are you (dclare4) still here?

[dclare4]

Hi there KM,

Yes still here but rarely visit the forums nowadays. I've been kinda busy in the 'real world'. :(

About the mod, I think there are plenty of really great ideas hopping about here but unless you can gather critical mass of support it will either not get done and just remain an idea or take a very long time to do. That being said I think the greatest hurdle for now would be the map, followed closely by the unit graphics w/c u can only do so much with. However with the plan to adapt most if not all the MTW VI units I think that will relieve the burden somewhat. So the map. If you have seven or eight factions, though if possible more (seven playable with maybe two or three powerful non-playable ones) each should have at least 2 land areas plus maybe 4 areas for expansion around them, hmmm... fifty would be okay I guess though it might be kind of tight. I was originally planning to just write over the original MTW map with Iberia being the North of Scotland and on downwards to Russia, which would be the North Midlands. That's the kind of scope I'm picturing also so that there's plenty of room to grow - I personally think the VI map is way too cramped.

Best regards,
Clare

[Duke Malcolm]

By the way, what are factions that you wanted in it?

[dclare4]

Hail HM Malcom of Scotland,

I can't remember them all off the cuff but I was thinking of playing this in a similar manner to my previously planned War of the Roses game in that you historically have two 'sides' -Jacobite and 'Whig' (Hanoverian) or three if you count the 'foreign powers' though these would be a subset of the Jacobite faction. But beneath these sides would be the factions of the great lords which use their 'allegiance' or adherence to one side or another to justify their power-grabs. So it's really every faction for itself in reality. The biggest let down in game purposes is the utterly HORRENDOUS MTW diplomatic engine w/c just utterly... I don't know... it's pathetic w/c is sad. I would have liked it to be possible to build tenuous 'alliances' with other factions without wiping them out. Perhaps if we modified the campaign points so you can win without wiping out the others :) ? Genocide is not only unrealistic but it's not a behaviour I want to encourage :)

Factions:

Drummond (Perth) - the 'main' Jacobite faction loyal to the exiled Stuarts.

MacDonald (Glengarry) - the 'main' Highland faction loyal to the Celtic highland clanships

Graham (Montrose) - the 'main' Scottish faction loyal to the (lowland) Scottish nobility government

Campbell (Argyll) - the 'main' Government faction loyal to the English Hanoverian crown.

Other Factions:

Douglas (Drumlanrig, Queensberry, Hamilton) - secondary government faction.

Mackenzie (Seaforth) - secondary Highland faction

Gordon (Huntley) - secondary Scottish nobles faction

Cameron (Erracht) - secondary Highland faction

Hanoverian (English) - the 'Pope faction' a non-player faction that represents Crown lands and forces in Scotland.

Can't think of the others right now...

About the map, I hope there will be provision for 'jump maps' - this is a little innovation of mine - w/c are land regions that are connected only to each other. Like for instance the land region of Stirlingshire would be on the main Scotland map, but this connects to the off map 'jump map' of Stirling Town w/c in turn has its as its castle, Stirling Castle. The only way to 'take' Stirling Castle is by first conquering Stirlingshire then taking Stirling Town. Ditto for places like Edinburgh, London, Inverness, Eileen Donan, etc.

Best regards,
Clare

[dclare4]

Oops Almost forgot

The Frasers of Lovat and the great MacShimie (Simon), the most evil man in Scotland Interesting (and should be playable) minor faction

Clare

[Duke Malcolm]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the jump-map.

Also, wasn't there several Clan MacDonalds loyal to (King) James (VIII, old pretender, stuart). And also the Clan Murray, with Lord George Murray was an important clan.

[Lord Of Storms]

Moved to the new mod development forum currently called Edit3 you may follow this topic there. thanks...LOS