View Full Version : Aaarrrgh - Useless Welsh Gits - VI
Just spent 200 years building up a small independent nation with the welsh. Thought I was doing all right. Built lots of stuff, kept the peace.
Then about 50 Vikings came and destroyed 200 of my men The next year 30 of them killed 200 Then the Saxons came in and killed 3 f mine for every one of theirs... sob... moan.. it was hopeless. I was destroyed...
The Viking and Saxon troops are just far, far superior to anything you get in Wales. And there just isn't the money in Wales to upgrade before te Vikings arrive.
How is it possible to win?
Basileus
11-29-2003, 04:29
I only played the viking campaign when the exp was released and i played with the welsh one thing i had to do was to get ships early so that you wont get raided from the vikings, then wait untill the vikings hit the saxons or the mercians and hit while they are weak..use your troops wisely and you can make it, i know its preety tough maybe some mercs (vikings) could help you out when attacking.
Haven't played as Welsh, but today I had 3 units of my (max size) Viking Beserkers kill 500+ enemy each in one battle
Beserkers (I think the Scots get these too?), Huscarles (available to Mercians & Saxons too) and Joms Vikings are amazingly good at chopping through... well, pretty much anything really.
You just basically charge them into a wall of enemy, wait a bit then sooner or later the left-overs of the enemy will run away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I even had a battle today that I was sure I'd lose:
2 Huscarles + 1 Beserker + 2 Thralls vs ~3500 Saxons mostly Spear, Armoured Spear and Horsemen.
But I won with minimal casualties due to the AI giving up & marching away after the first wave was smashed by my charge from defensive position.
As the Irish, I managed to win but really only by just having swarms of Gallowglasses to overwhelm the Huscarles with pure numbers.
Gallowglasses are even comparitively good troops in VI so that really shows the power of Huscarles.
Ironside
11-29-2003, 11:24
By some reason the vikings never attacks me as the Welsh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif , even when I'm not allied. But I deploy heavy garnisions early.
Thats makes the game quite easy. Take the rebel provinces to the west. Get boats fast and the vikings aren't even threat anymore. Attack and conquer Ireland and you shouldn't have much problem later.
Use archers and pepper those heavy units to oblivion. Celtic warriors are good and then use cav to flank. Haven't gotten welsh bandits yet, but when they come they already will get 3/3 upgrades http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Won a battle yeasterday in my Welsh campaign 2500 vs 8800 Mercians. The result? 607 losses 2661 killed and 3360 captured http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif . My king got scant mercy, butcher and skilled defender after that battle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But I admit 60 Saxon huskies are scary, one unit (v0) killed 118 celtic warriors when I didn't have time for larger reinforcements http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
In cease you're wondering I'm checking the logfiles.
My king killed/captured 151 enemies personally http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
welsh bandits are the key
Big King Sanctaphrax
11-29-2003, 16:28
Quote[/b] ]Useless Welsh Gits
AARGH I'll get you, Boyo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
TheSilverKnight
11-29-2003, 17:53
Yeah What BKS said I like the Welsh in VI They're kool-beanz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The_Emperor
11-29-2003, 19:18
Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Nov. 29 2003,13:26)]welsh bandits are the key
Yup, suped up archers who can hide anywhere... And a 60 Man unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif (arnt they armed with Longbows?)
The main problems the Welsh have in my view is their strategic position, they are hemmed in on all sides by powerful kingdoms and the ever-present threat of the Vikings crossing the seas.
My Advice is to ally with the Vikings and to take advantage of their raids into the territory of your enemies... The rest of the time you just have to be more opportunistic than normal.
TheSilverKnight
11-29-2003, 19:42
true. I also recommend having emissaries go after other factions' princesses. Who knows, you might get something good out of it. and build garrisons fast. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hurin_Rules
11-29-2003, 20:30
Playing as Irish, I found those Saxon Huscarles made me weak at the knees. There really is no unit that is a true counter to them. I tried to hold them with a lesser unit like armoured spears or Gallowglasses, and then flank them with mounted nobles. Also, kerns and dartmen can inflict substantial casualties on them. As for Welsh, I think the only way to beat them is to heavily outnumber them.
Well as the Irish I employed quite a lot of kerns and dartmen and they can really rape heavy armored units, so perhaps you should try to use more of them Hurin. Granted, they won't beat a huge army of Vikings, but with proper tactics they can inflict enough casualties that your gallowglasses/armoured spears might be able to hold the line.
Key for any faction, in my opinion, is to play to your strengths. As the Welsh you can produce some excellent archers early on(valour bonus from one of their provinces I forget which)and celtic warriors can chew through enemy troops. However you really do need to expect to take a lot of casualties while using them, as they are very lightly armored. If I was to play the Welsh I would use an army that consisted of a celtic warrior core, a few armored spears, some archers and a horsemen or two. The viking troops aren't fast(barring berserkers) so skirmish them to hell and back. Once you get Welsh bandits you can lay devastating ambushes on them when you are on the defensive. The Welsh lands favor archer heavy armies on defense, so again, like I said, play to your strengths http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. I'm not saying my strategies are fool proof or even that I am an excellent commander. I'm probably decent at best. But I try to always play to my strengths not the enemies and because of this I can usually win most campaigns in the long run. Remember that when you are on defense the enemy is marching into your territory, so pay attention to the land before you deploy your troops. Learn the area, possible ambush spots, etc. Welsh bandits take a while to tech up to but once you have them you should have no trouble at all defeating infantry-heavy armies on the defensive if you employ your men right. Just my .02
I don't know how you can get as far as welsh bandits. I just can't get the money together fast enough. It takes years just to get the mines working. To try and get some agriculture working takes decades - and a fortune. All the while you are spending every last penny on inferior troops (cos you can't afford/have time to upgrade) to cover your borders.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
I'll try again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Red Peasant
11-30-2003, 12:55
Quote[/b] (Idaho @ Nov. 30 2003,10:13)]I don't know how you can get as far as welsh bandits. I just can't get the money together fast enough. It takes years just to get the mines working. To try and get some agriculture working takes decades - and a fortune. All the while you are spending every last penny on inferior troops (cos you can't afford/have time to upgrade) to cover your borders.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
I'll try again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Well, the way I see it, the AI and the game setup must be quite realistic. If the Welsh had been powerful we'd all now be speaking their sonorous yet crazy language. They should be hard to play. Sorry, I know that don't help any, just an idle observation. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
OK - I started again. The year is now 875. I have held the Vikings at bay with sea power, Wales is mine and well developed (almost as far as development will take it) - but now I am surrounded by huge armies. I have built up stacks to man the borders - but this has led me into a fiscal crisis with a massive defecit... and I still don't have the power to take on the Irish or Mercians (and they seem to be happy ignoring me and taking a pop at each other).
I think I will scale down, clear out some of the dead wood and get on top of the finances - then I might just see about ruling the waves. Ireland is a big temptation as all their forces are in England fighting the Mercians and my spies have been roaming their kingdom sewing unrest.
the way i won my campagin with wales was in two phases, the first was an early expansion, gaining another 3-4 provs outside of wales, and on england proper, then is the building phase, where i upgraded heavily in 2-3 provs. i find that looking defensivly early as wales takes away a great advantage, in that your celtic warriorsare easy to obtain, and for the first 50 years can dominate the battle
Brutal DLX
12-01-2003, 13:42
Archers archers archers...
Add some spears, Med Cav and Celtics and you have your basic Welsh army. Definitely tech up to Welsh Bandits, they will be your elite unit later on.
If Saxons and Mercians fight each other, ally with one and take some provinces. If they are at peace with each other, then go for Ireland, they will fall easily due to having no archers and their javelin units will be depleted by the time they reach strinking distance.
Saxon huscarls and viking units are tough, focus fire on them, then charge with cavalry in their backs, while using armoured spearmen to hold them. Your Celtics should avoid them unless they can flank. Celtic warriors work great against spearmen and other light infantry.
The year is now 980 - I am still confined to Wales and Cornwall However I have picked up a couple of Irish territories. I don't dare take on the Huscarles yet - they will mince me.
Gotta love those Welsh Bandits though - serious firepower as well as being able to mix it in melee. When fighting in the woods they tear through light infantry
I am definately not going to acheive total domination in this game. However, if I take all of Ireland and most of England I will count the game as a success.
http://cronusbdc.tripod.com/viking.jpg
Beat that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
(Thats what happens when a prince appears as a province rebels.)
I find the best way to play the Welsh is to be super aggressive early. In the first 20 years I completely take out the Saxons. This gives me lots of high income provinces. Make sure you upgrade weapons and armor as much as possible, this will make your celtic warriors able to stand up to better troops. Also, can't the Celts build Huscarles? I remember building LOTS of mounted nobles or whatever royal knights are called in VI. I pretty much win before 900. Also, try to ally with the Vikings, it makes the game much easier.
My key tactic with the Welsh are this:
Before you build anything else build those mines. Then take the rest of Wales and build mines there.
Build up a small navy and a force you can defend with, make alliances with the Mercians and Saxons.
Expand into either Ireland or Northumbria.
Use Mercenaries when you face the stronger Anglo-Saxon factions.
I don't know why the Welsh are my favorite faction in Viking Invasion but they are and I win quite frequently with them as well.
The bastard Saxons have come for me A titanic battle ensued in Powis which claimed the lives of the Mercian King and the Welsh King.
Now I am left with a couple of armies fighting hit and run style against the Mercians. The end is in sight - but I will make those dog Saxons pay
I like playing the Welsh - they have everything against them. Just getting through the first couple of centuries is an achievement.
Spmelta - that was pretty much what I did. The only problem being that the Mercians covered all my English borders meaning I couldn't take on the Northumbrians and my forays into Ireland prooved initially successful but the endless rebellions and re-ermergences drained my expeditionary force.
In my experience you have to strangle the saxons and mercians quickly, and hope for some help from the vikings.
They mustn't be allowed to build huscarles - you have nothing to match them. Attack early and often Grabbing Ireland is usefull too. I don't play on the hardest difficulties, so I can keep the Irish happy pretty easily.
And try to field welsh bandits - they rock.
Quote[/b] (Magraev @ Dec. 03 2003,07:15)]I don't play on the hardest difficulties, so I can keep the Irish happy pretty easily.
I don't want easy wins I never play on anything other than hard.
Had a real injustice happen to me in this campaign though. The Irish came and nicked Gwent. I filled it with spies to bring about a rebellion and after a couple of years I attacked and re-took it. Low and behold a Loyalist revolt - of IRISH It was outrageous Needless to say I salughtered every last one of them like dogs.
I really think you are being too passive when playing these poor factions. You must be aggressive really early on and take out one of the super powers or you will have a hard time becoming one yourself. As the Welsh or the Northumbrians, I always take out the Mercians or the Saxons really quickly so that I own the resources to compete with the other one. I think the last time I played as the Welsh, I had completely eliminated the Saxons by 811. Try it.
I found that playing Welse, you need to be agressive. (well, perhaps I am always aggressive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif) Ignore those poor free provinces (which is near the sea and is subject to viking raiding). Go after the Mercians and the Saxons when they are weak earlier on. If you wait, they will have time to build up their axewielding, headchopping armies and you won't have a chance. Their lands are richer and time is on their side.
My welsh work force are those 100-men Warriors. Waiting to build Welsh-Bandits is simply too long. Once you carve out an in-land empire from the Saxons and the Mercians, your empire is unstoppable.
Annie
So you reckon just building minimal infrastructure - a few mines - then building up stacks of Celtic Warriors to rampage with?
Brutal DLX
12-04-2003, 11:01
It's certainly the easiest thing to do at the start of a game. AI empires are very susceptible to early rushes that's why I hardly do them.
You can win staying passive and teching up, but it takes skill on the battlefield and of course a little luck.
Somebody Else
12-04-2003, 18:15
Do remember that early on the Mercians and Saxons can only field spearmen type units (spearmen and fyrdmen) as infantry... Celtic warriors like the taste of those... Remember to bring archers and use those to turn any cavalry you see into giant pincushions, then... charge. And run them off the field. Cavalry can be a pain if spearmen aren't included with the celtics.
Admittedly I'm not a great user of cavalry - main job for them is to be the general unit and stay alive... and kill/capture routers. The occasional flank/rear attack does help.
Don't forget to bring some of your own cav along. They eat fyrdmen up pretty well and are the only effective way to take out the enemy archers.
I find that being this aggressive early on take a great deal of skill. I am often fighting a richer, better prepared enemy with lousy troops. I am usually considerably outnumbered too. It takes patience and skill to take out a large opponent with very few troops. I will agree that the game is over sooner but the thrill of those first 30 years of win or die on the battlefield are what I play for.
But Welsh is rated as "hard" camapaign, so it is expected that you already could face the AI on battlefield with relative ease.
When play small, poor factions, agressiveness is the only asset you can rely on.
You don't need to be Viking to do the raiding. I always attack simultaneously 2 or 3 provinces and then consolidated my holding into 1 new province. Wait for a moment and do it again. Use mercenaries if necessary.
Annie
Success After thinking all was lost I have turned the campaign round. I targetted the Mercian King and kept attacking his personal armies. After making him run a few times the Mercians split in a civil war. A couple of well placed bribes, an assasination and a desperate field battle and the Mercian line is destroyed
It is now 980 and I have taken most of England with the Mercians and Saxons re-emerging on the fringes. I should be able to crush them and move up to Scotland and Ireland before 1066
HopAlongBunny
12-08-2003, 11:36
Well done
I just can't get the Welsh going in VI. My last attempt (ages ago) halted when I teched up to Bandits, I could afford 2. So long as I never built another thing (including a navy) the game was in the bag http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Someday...I shall Return
cart6566
12-11-2003, 03:22
This was a great thread, thanks everyone. The advice on huscarles was on the money. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
It is now 892 in my Welsh campaign, hardest difficulty. I have all of the southwest and part of the center of Britain. The Irish own all else, except the continental bits on the edge of the map, where the Vikings hang out (they never invaded anywhere that I could tell). I think I have the upgrades to win, but it will be a long fight. I should have built more slipways for longboats. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
I'd be interested in hearing the endings of some of the other campaigns described in this thread.
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