Should woman be allowed in the Army?

[Theredlemming]

I am not sure which side of the fence to sit on so I will just sit on it.

would do you guys think about this issue? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Should they or shouldn't they?

th red still JP http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif lemming

[TheSilverKnight]

I think they should, but should be kept out of heavy fighting. However, I like women in uniform http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[FoundationII]

I think that's their choise to make, but if they subscribe they have to face the concequenses (so they should engage in heavy fighting too)
I believe the people who subscribe are nuts (man or woman) They just give their lives away.

[rasoforos]

isnt there an exact same topic out there ?

[Theredlemming]

Are there any woman in the forum? who have something to say about it?


(Didn't think so) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

the red never ever ever been promoted lemming

[Kekvit Irae]

Quote[/b] (Theredlemming @ Nov. 29 2003,13:25)]Are there any woman in the forum? who have something to say about it?


(Didn't think so) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

the red never ever ever been promoted lemming
*cracks her knuckles*
Having served in the US Army, I'm tempted to ask the mods to let me reem this one.
*smirks*

[Gregoshi]

Sorry kekvitirae, we can't have you reeming 14 year olds. Spanking, however...

...and the line forms to the left. According to red, I should have arthritic hands rendering me incapable of typing (being over 40) and I'm too old to play games. A few of us geezers are in line ahead of you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Just having some fun with you red. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif To be fair kekvitirae, you did not respond to his questions about women in the army in this topic, so red gets off on a technicality. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Theredlemming]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Nov. 30 2003,02:45)]Sorry kekvitirae, we can't have you reeming 14 year olds. Spanking, however...

...and the line forms to the left. According to red, I should have arthritic hands rendering me incapable of typing (being over 40) and I'm too old to play games. A few of us geezers are in line ahead of you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Just having some fun with you red. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif To be fair kekvitirae, you did not respond to his questions about women in the army in this topic, so red gets off on a technicality. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif





http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif



the red elmming

[Kekvit Irae]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Nov. 30 2003,02:45)]Sorry kekvitirae, we can't have you reeming 14 year olds. Spanking, however...
Aww... not even a little bit? *pouts*

[el_slapper]

Basically, combat has high physical expectations. As long as a woman is able to fulfill it(and they're probably not that numerous able to get out a 200-pounds injured guy from a burning vehicle), I don't see why any army should bypass that potential.

The only location I cannot imagine cohabitation between men & women is a submarine. That is, because the encumbrance of hygenia facilities is unmanageable in such a small space. OTOH, a full-women sub can be imagined...though it might be decades before it appears.

[Taillefer]

Can hardly get my ole 'red' hands to walk the walk cos I'm so excited by that all female submarine

Will they need some guys in the engine room ?

Not very PC (Politicaly Correct) here (Oh gosh) he added quickly as his own cherished Boadecia leant on his shoulder while his red hands falteringly quivered over the keyboard.

Cheers,

Taillefer.

[Rivelin]

I vote yes to the all female sub

[Somebody Else]

I remember a film made a while ago set in WW2 where a whole load of WAAF or whatever took over a RN frigate... they spent the whole time sunbathing, swannin around - and when it came to the crunch - ie the Hun showed up, the men were let out again.

(Admittedly sunbathing in a sub can be tricky...)

Plus, in the Dune series - one of the later books, there's an army composed of women, that go out and... deal with the and male enemy combatants in rather unusual ways... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

But really there's no reason that the armed forces should be segregated... Women can be just as vicious as men - I know, I have a sister http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif

[dwarven_eagle]

If it wasn't for the woman in the military (NOT just army you baloons) there'd be NO military
Yes, they might not be as strong
Yes, you think their coweards
BUT
They're the ones helping there husbands
Taking care of the kids at home
Taking care of the injered
Keeping men from doing those thingns that we're most definetly ashamed of

[Sjakihata]

Quote[/b] (dwarven_eagle @ Dec. 01 2003,21:18)]If it wasn't for the woman in the military (NOT just army you baloons) there'd be NO military
Yes, they might not be as strong
Yes, you think their coweards
BUT
They're the ones helping there husbands
Taking care of the kids at home
Taking care of the injered
Keeping men from doing those thingns that we're most definetly ashamed of
A little old fashioned, would probably fit in the second world war, but in 2003 I doubt it.


In Denmark only mandatory military is for the men, not the women. This is very unfair. Especially when you watch the news, and some feminists is ranting about equal rights, then GIVE them euqal rights. Grrr.

But I think the ladies should be allowed into the military.

[Obex]

The military is the vehicle that we use to wage war. The objective of war is to kill the enemy as efficiently as possible. It stands that a military then should be built with this intent. Notions of political correctness, equal rights, sexism, fairness, whatever, should be secondary to the desire to build an efficient killing machine. It doesnt help anyone on the battle field to know that their squad mate has a 'right' to be there.

Having said that, should women be allowed in the military? They should be able to, provided that they do not lower the efficiency of the unit. i saw a study done that indicated that men/women units didnt perform as well in combat as all men. if this is true, then women who want to serve should be found a place, not of their choosing, but one that would best serve the military as a whole. again, its not about fairness, its about killing.

[dwarven_eagle]

Quote[/b] (Obex @ Dec. 01 2003,17:53)] if this is true, then women who want to serve should be found a place, not of their choosing, but one that would best serve the military as a whole. again, its not about fairness, its about killing.
Thi sis already true for every body who joins unless they have their PHD, then the mil. will ussualy give them a career in that feild or what your background is in (been a nurse for 5 years and want to join mil. you'll most likely become a nurse in the mil)

[Theredlemming]

I would like to thank everyone who posted an interesting argument.

(by the way if you are still at school this is a great way to get people to do your homework though must comments miss the point http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Just a joke http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

the red is not joke lemming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The Ravener]

Oooo interesting topic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . My wife is enlisted in the navy and is adequately capable of engaging in combat, but she would never want to. Many women want to participate and contribute without being on the front lines...intelligence rates are chock full of women as are medical and other support fields. While there are a significant number of women who feel capable of (and are most certainly capable of...) handling combat situations, it is the military's slow to change mentality that would make it somewhat of a liability for them to do so. As long as the whole we must protect the girls and watch their feelings crap is perpetuated then women become a distraction in many cases. I am in no way saying this is ok, women should be allowed to pursue whatever field they want proving they meet the requirements...but its the foolish attitudes of their squad/ship mates and the male dominated command hierarchy that leads to issues. As for the concept of an all female submarine...ARE YOU HIGH??? Putting 260 women in an enclosed environment capable of firing nuclear weapons during their monthly visits would be catastrophic Just kidding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif . Frankly, having seen some military gals fight, I think our foes would be in even more dire straights if we let em' enage heh heh.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Quote[/b] (FoundationII @ Nov. 29 2003,12:59)]I believe the people who subscribe are nuts (man or woman) They just give their lives away.
Just wanted to jump on this one- I have nothing but the utmost respect for people who are willing to put their life on the line for their country. War is senseless and sad, but we don't live in a perfect world. If you hadnt noticed, these people throw their lives away so that people like you can sit behind a keyboard and call them crazy. My grandad did not lose an eye and watch his brother get shot because he was mad, he did it because otherwise England would have been destroyed by hitler, along with the thousands of others who died for their country. open your eyes before you open your mouth next time.

[LadyAnn]

The image of having to pull out a 200-pound guy from burning vehicule may strikes as men would have physical advantage. But modern warfares do equalize a lot of things.

In Napoleonic time, a peasant given a gun and some basic training could fight as well as nobles. The gun is a great equalizer.

In modern time, the automatic riffle in the hands of child-soldiers are as lethal as in the hands of grown men. Riffles are made lighter and lighter, with uzi sub-machine guns and AK47, why women couldn't fight if they had to?

Annie

[Papewaio]

Women can fight.

Women can be as deadly as men.

However it is not true to say that a child soldier is as deadly as a fully trained adult.

SAS do weights for a reason. It gives them the ability to carry more gear, to go further faster, to have the ability to maintain better control of their firearms.

Physical strength is still an advantage.

I have nothing agianst women being soldiers. If they can perform as equals then they should not be stopped from joining up. I think men will have on average an advantage when it comes to strength but there is far more to being a soldier. As long as standards are maintained (ones that make sense as far as combat is concerned) then I see no problem in joining up and fighting.

[YunDog]

yep the technology means a kid with a laptop could coordinate smart bomb strikes on thermally imaged targets - so I have no doubt women are physically and emotionally capable to make war - look at the french resistance

2 things tho

talking to most vets one has to ask why would any person want to expose themselves to the horror of war - to have to live with those images for the rest of your life

also women are more likely to be raped and sodomised if captured by the enemy - additional emotional scarring and trauma for soldiers who happen to also be girls

men are condition through all their lives through macho compeditive bullshit and fist fighting to have to live with nasty things - many are able to live normal lives after war - many are not - I wonder what the toll would be a large percentage of women had been scarred by war?

Also from a perspective of reproductory investment : if like the great war some huge percentage of men are killed - then the remaining men are still able to fertalise a larger population of women (milkmen during ww1&2) - but women can only produce 1 child at a time - the effects on a country future population could be devastating - you may win the battle but lose the war?

just some thoughts nothing more

every dog has its day

[Scipio]

i find it a pretty bad question I mean no offense its just that I dont see why they shouldnt if they wanted to but the problem is I dont know many girls who have interests in a military career I also have to side with SK on sheet girls look good in an army costumes

[dwarven_eagle]

Quote[/b] (YunDog @ Dec. 02 2003,22:08)]also women are more likely to be raped and sodomised if captured by the enemy - additional emotional scarring and trauma for soldiers who happen to also be girls
Well, I not sexest, but, this is why I'm against equal rights.........want all of your girls to be the target of capture, then raped and beaten, and maybe killed unless rescued. I'm not saying that woman can't fend off a bunch of phycos, but these guys are scary (many peolpe, even men, would freak if they were attacked by the tactics they use)

who said war has rules (it's not a wrestling turnement) it's WAR

[Ja'chyra]

Of course they should be allowed in the military, but only allowed on the front lines if the many problems can be overcome.

What problems I hear you yell:

1. The instinct of men to protect women causing them to fail in their, the mens, duties.

2. The fact that men on the whole are stronger tham women, you know it's true.

3. Even simple things like personnal hygiene, sleeping arrangements.

I don't think anyone should be allowed in at the expense of the efficiency of the unit be they men, women or whatever, but once they get solutions to these problems then why not? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I think the single biggest problem is the distraction they would cause to the male soldiers. unfortunately thats just the way it is- you can't have a unit compromised just to be politically correct. not to mention that most of the people who western armies fight tend to be of the opinion that women are nothing but slaves means that if they DO get caught, they are most definitely in the poo poos.

so yes- in the army, not in the front line. its a simple fact that men ARE better soldiers than women, and it is not cost effective to spend more money training women to be as combat effective as a normally trained man. this is the army, not some PC womens rights rally.

[Dhepee]

Women are great for the military if only because they free up more men for combat units. Modern armies require a huge ratio of support soldiers to combat soldiers. That is soldiers whose primary function is to move supplies, build military infrastructure, maintain equipment and facilities, medical personnel, intelligence, communications, etc make up the vast majority of the military. Something on the order of 10:1. If more women are used in those positions and men are sent almost exclusively to combat units, from which women are currently barred, then the military is using its resources more efficiently.
In fact in a hypothetical draft I think that it should be extended to women to make it more balanced and to boost the number of men available for combat without decreasing the logistical abilities of the military. Why draft only men if for every one man you need ten men in support positions? Fill the support positions with women and you end up drafting fewer men and spreading out the impact of the draft on the population.

[Papewaio]

Quote[/b] (Ja'chyra @ Dec. 03 2003,17:38)]Of course they should be allowed in the military, but only allowed on the front lines if the many problems can be overcome.

What problems I hear you yell:

1. The instinct of men to protect women causing them to fail in their, the mens, duties.

2. The fact that men on the whole are stronger tham women, you know it's true.

3. Even simple things like personnal hygiene, sleeping arrangements.

I don't think anyone should be allowed in at the expense of the efficiency of the unit be they men, women or whatever, but once they get solutions to these problems then why not? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
1. Is definitly incorrect. Armies do everything possible to increase comradeship/mateship/'spirit de corps or whatever you wish to name it. In fact if you want to get really intense about it there are armies in history that have fielded pairs of lovers as they felt that they would fight harder.

2. I have stated that strength is an advantage for infantry like the SAS. I doubt it is such an issue for tank drivers. Also women may have an advantage when it comes to stamina related tasks like night time guard duty... or do you believe that men do all the housework and get up in the middle of the night to feed the baby... the ability to multitask is useful as well in the right situation.

3. Personnal hygiene... I think that is practically a non issue when you consider that trench warfare is not the same as going on a date to the prom. Sleeping arrangements... if a soldier is so unprofessional to rape a fellow soldier or to be bonking in a fox hole in the middle of a battle then they should be shot.

[shand994]

WHO gives a rats ass? not me letem go die if they wanna http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Because when ya really think about it, theres no real difference to having a half witted man running around with his big shiny gun to a half witted girl running around with her big shiny gun.

So i say again, WHO CARES

[el_slapper]

Commentaire[/b] (Papewaio @ Dec. 04 2003,03:21)]1. Is definitly incorrect. Armies do everything possible to increase comradeship/mateship/'spirit de corps or whatever you wish to name it. In fact if you want to get really intense about it there are armies in history that have fielded pairs of lovers as they felt that they would fight harder.

2. I have stated that strength is an advantage for infantry like the SAS. I doubt it is such an issue for tank drivers. Also women may have an advantage when it comes to stamina related tasks like night time guard duty... or do you believe that men do all the housework and get up in the middle of the night to feed the baby... the ability to multitask is useful as well in the right situation.

3. Personnal hygiene... I think that is practically a non issue when you consider that trench warfare is not the same as going on a date to the prom. Sleeping arrangements... if a soldier is so unprofessional to rape a fellow soldier or to be bonking in a fox hole in the middle of a battle then they should be shot.
1. true, Pape. The Greek's top notch unit was a 300-men batallion built upon 150 pair of lovers. I forgot the name, though.

2. True for aircraft or trucks, where woman are even better because more careful. Not for tanks. Remember the invasion of Koweit last spring. A Paladin shielded vehicle has burned in less than 10 seconds. In war vs stronger opponents, such things happen a lot. And if a comrade is injured therein, you've got to take him out from the mess before it's too late. Thus my definition of strong enough to take a 200-pounds heavy comrade from the mess.

3. War is tough, and this add a difficulty. But you're right : the man not able to control itself does not have its place on the front. And it can occasionaly improve morale. Overall a complex thing, with unclear results. Not enough to justify the lack of ladies - unless you're in an environment where encumbrance issues are extreme, like subs.

[Somebody Else]

El Slapper - the Greeks to whom you are referring are the Theban Sacred Band... However, they didn't save Thebes from Alexander when he got pissed off... He defeated teh Theban army on the field, and then, just to show his dissatisfaction, razed Thebes to the ground.