Not holding in formation

[Shamus]

I have just run into a rather odd thing while set up in a defensive formation. I had a line of spearmen curving in an arch around the front of my bowmen. In one place I had two formations of bowmen, one behind the other. Then behind the archers I had two groups of Byzantine cavalry, and one group of horse archers. Then behind them I had three groups of Byzantine soldiers, one group of urban militia, and one group of kataphraktoi.

I made sure that all my units were on the hold position command, so they wouldn’t break ranks. However, as soon as I hit the begin button, several of my units began to wander in different directions. Both units of Byzantine cavalry, the horse archers, two of the bowmen, and one of the units of Byzantine soldiers tried to wander off. One of the units of Byzantine cavalry stopped just outside my wall of spearmen. The rest I grabbed and through back into formation before they could wander too far. But no mater how hard I tried to keep them in formation, they wouldn’t stay. Not until they engaged the enemy with their arrows did they stay put.

I have seen my spearmen move apart if I have placed the ends of the lines against each other, and was wondering if there is an “approximation to neighbour” thing with units armed with bows. If so, how close can they be to each other, and should one be in front of the other? It is rather frustrating to watch a carefully organized defensive formation wander out of position, despite being told to hold. Any help would be most appreciated. Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ludens]

I've had the same problems in Shogun. Putting my archers or muskets in a beautiful formation on the top of a mountain at the edge of the map, press begin button, and see them moving of (though not as bad as you decribed). I believe this has something to do with lack of space. You tend to see these things near the edges of maps, near bridges and if you squeze the units in a very thight formation. Pressing hold formation AND hold position does help to some extent

Regarding the use of archers: I don't know how MTW calculates this, but in STW archers needed clear line of sight to fire. This ment that they had to stand at the front (or at a slope) in formations of 2 lines deep (3 in loose formation). Else some of them won't fire, some will fire with reduced accuracy, and sometimes they will fire at their comrades. I once stormed a castle, and order a unit of archers to fire uphill, over the wall. To my horror, I saw one of the samurai get shot by a comrade, another samurai rushed to his place, got shot in his turn, another samurai went in, ...
And all the time I'm shouting: Boys, don't commit Hari-Kiri, we haven't lost the battle yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

And this proves that soldiers are stupid http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[FoundationII]

I think it's because the archers are impetous, I experienced those difficulties with all kind of units.

[Theredlemming]

And this proves that soldiers are stupid [QUOTE]

be careful wot you say one member is a female marine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] ]be careful what you say, one member is a female marine

Oh, not to worry, the don't know where I live. Anyway, I think soldiers also have a sense of humor (although I'm not sure about that). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

But back to the topic: the movement took place while at the start of the battle, while the enemy still was far away, so that rules out impetuous soldiers running towards the enemy. And since it also happens with ashigaru under a zero honour general, I don't think they actually where impetuous to start with.

But does anyone know what impetuous actually does? I've never seen any difference (perhaps because I'm just a bad general, but hey, so was Custer and he is still famous http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ).
Do they charge without orders (I've never seen this) or are they difficult to disengage (and I mean more difficult than usual).

Ludens

(Ps. Who is that female marine actually? I need to know this if someone in this forum suddenly starts flaming me.)
*** looks suspicioulsly over shoulder ***

[Gregoshi]

Impetuous basically means you have little or no control over them. They'll charge without orders and most likely won't disengage on your orders either. Their morale is so high they think they are invincible and their blood boils with the desire for combat.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Your problems are only because of lack of space due to an excessivelly tight formation. Units can't be put too close together.
I know this, because it happens to me all the time... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Shamus]

Loosening up my formations seems to have helped. However, I get the distinct impression that my men are trying to make me paranoid. Each subsequent battle since I loosened up formations, one unit shifts ever so slightly – just enough to start the “beginning of movement” music, adding to my paranoia. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[taoistlumberjak]

this is another reason why i feel there should be a platoon sergeant unit in this game

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]this is another reason why i feel there should be a platoon sergeant unit in this game

LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Cheetah]

There should be no overlaps between the units. If there is even the slightest overlap then one of the units will start to move and will stop only if it finds a big enough room for itself (even if it is in front of your spearline). It has nothing to do with impetiousness. An impetious unit will charge regardless of the tightness of your formation provided that the enemy gets within a fixed range. If you want to pack your units close together, then make groups and use the group formations. #5 and #6 are especially useful.

[taoistlumberjak]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 01 2003,10:01)]LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
seriously

*archer unit starts to move*

sergeant - GODDAMIT, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING, MAGGOT?

*archer replies in occitan*

sergeant - SPEAK ENGLISH, NUMBNUTS

[Ludens]

I see that you understand the essentials of military operations taoistlumberjak: just shout until the problem goes away. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[taoistlumberjak]

oh know, i have a pretty good understanding of tactics.

I just keep getting this funny image of R Lee Ermey running around a medieval battlefield http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif