Tips for controlling large armies?

[Vigi]

Well just like the title says, I find I have trouble controlling big armies. I can win almost any battle on equal or even unequal footing with 6 or less units but once you get over that I tend to have trouble controlling my men and being able to have everything I want to do happen at the same time like the computer can. For instance I have some spanish jinettes flanking around to harass some AUMS and i'm tryin to manage them to make sure they don't do anything stupid, and while thats happening I have trouble keepin my main line flanking and doing what I want it to do.

So is this just something that one improves on in time? Are there anything you guys do to be able to control your men better? Granted, pausing can help, but I still seem to get bogged down with so much going on when it's a large battle and for some reason I feel sort of careless when theres that much men fighting and I don't know why that is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif.

[noramis]

Best way is to pause and hold 'c' down when you have a unit selected to progress the battle slowly by slowly ...

Don't forget that when you hold 'shift' down, it tells that unit to go there after getting to it's first location.

[ichi]

I think that the best players have three abilities:

Knowing the stats (helps unit selection and tactics)

Perception (knowing what is going on, what will happen next, how the units are faring, seeing opportunities)

Manual Dexterity (the ability to point and click)

These all improve with experience, IMO.

But you do not say how you group. Grouping can be an important factor in retaining control. Develop a good grouping system.

Also, Cav Archers (including Jinetes) require relatively more micromanagement than other troop types (same with mixed troops, like Muslim archer/melee troops).

Develop a system. One example would be to engage with infantry along the line. Once engaged, set em to Hold Position. Now focus on cavalry. Use the shift key to give a cav unit group a series of commands (e.g., flank around left or right).

Now go back and check the line. Are they holding? Use your reserves to brace up the line where it wavers. Now check your archers or rally anybody who is routing.

There are times when I can see that someone needs attention, but they aren't gonna get it 'cause I'm way busy elsewhere. Then the trick is to focus on the important - those 12 Militia Sargents can wait while I get the 40 Chiv Knights moving.

In the example you give using Jinetes, I would consider just pulling the Jinetes away a short distance, focusing on the main battle, then once I felt 'in control' go back and start harassing AUMs. Remember that archers have the skirmish ability, and will manage thmeselves to some extent.

How you view the field can really help or hurt. Don't let yourself get focused in too tight for too long. I try to keep my camera view back behind my gen, where I can see most of the battle. I find that watching the icons at the bottom of the screen is good for alerting me to trouble spots (e.g. arrows or the little white wavering flag).

Don't use the pause function, it is a crutch. Get online and improve your skills. And don't worry, we all are overloaded at some point.

ichi

[MrWhipple]

Great advice ichi, could you please expand on grouping a bit?

[Paxx]

May I add something?
There is no need to hurry or maneuvre your forces -they get tired- untill you get close to the enemy. Take your time untill they reach a safe position and by that time you should decide how you will attack, having a chance for grouping and changing your lines: for example you could select them all as they are, and march them all together using "hold formation" button, towards the enemy. Then it gets a little more complicated.

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] ]march them all together using "hold formation" button, towards the enemy
hold formation is a unit level command, i think you meant 'group formation' using either the group button or 'g'. hold formation has no effect on keeping groups of units together

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] ]hold formation has no effect on keeping groups of units together
I think that the opposite happens,
unless you mean ordering eg two groups of grouped units.

I mean hold formation, after all -or the desirable- units selected (not nesecarilly grouped). Then they will march together and stop with the formation they were into, before start marching. Also I think that hold formation command is not a unit level command.

[The_Emperor]

I find the best way is to group all of your units of the same type together for ease of use.

All the Spearmen in one group, Archers, Javelinmen, Horse Archers, Heavy Cavalry and Light Cavalry... I always like to make my Generals Heavy Cavalry.

Moving the army in formation is easy with the Alt and Click command when you have everyone selected (Ctrl and A), the Army will retain its shape and will march at the speed of the slowest unit... this reduces the amount of redrawing of formations you need to do.

Practice your style and find out what works best during the heat of battle.

[Vigi]

Thanks for the tips all. I think the biggest problem is most battles are unorthodox, that is, it is usually me fighting an odd combination of troops with an odd combination of troops. It can be hard at times to set a good plan up when I have, say, a lot of this unit but a shortage of that unit. Sure we all have our neat and tidyed up armies, but how often do you get to use mostly them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Vigi @ Dec. 01 2003,18:59)]Sure we all have our neat and tidyed up armies, but how often do you get to use mostly them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I get to use them very often, I use the "Multiple province approach" for building an army. I make each province specialise in training one arm of my Army.

If I was playing the English for instance, I would have Spearmen in Mercia, Archers in Wales, Cavalry in Wessex and Swordsmen and Clansmen in Scotland. Ships I would make in Northumbria and Northern France.

Within Five years I can make each part of a "nice tidy army" and send it off into the big wide world using my fleets.

When I have gaps in my armies I plug them with mercs until I finish recouping my losses by retraining my troops.

I don't like to have depleted armies in the field and I like to have at least one "spare" army, just in case things go pair shaped http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Major Robert Dump]

Use "G" for grouping. Walk don't run. I typically have my army divided into 4-6 companies, each company being 2-5 units. Also learn the beauty of the drag and drop method of forming up new lines with unit(s). theres no point in singly micromanaging 4 units fo missles as a front line when you can group the four, then left-click drag the formation to the new point you want and make it nice and pretty. also, right cxlicking while doing this evens out the lines for saces where the units are different sizes.

Enjoy.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (MrWhipple @ Nov. 30 2003,23:12)]Great advice ichi, could you please expand on grouping a bit?
There are many who could do this topic more justice than I ever could but . . .

Typical ichi Byz High Era Army

.............Treb Archer.....Treb Archer.....Treb Archer

................Byz Inf.........Byz Inf............Byz Inf
..............VG....VG.........Byz Cav........VG....VG
Pronoiai...................Kataphraktoi (Gen)...........Pronoiai
Pronoiai.......................................................Pronoiai

My icon bar at the bottom looks like this:

TA TA TA ByzCav Kat ByzInByzInByzIn VGVG VGVG PAPA PAPA

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichibyzgroups.jpg

I leave my Trebs ungrouped (they turn and run faster when I tell em to if they are ungrouped). If I need to select the archers I simply hit CTRL-B this selects all missiles.

I hard group (hold down CTRL and left click) all of my Byz Inf together using the Ctrl-G (what I call a hard group). I use them en masse, essentially as one unit.

I hard group the VG on the right together and the VG on the left together. I select two VG, hit Ctrl-G, then select the other two VG, and Ctrl-G. I use the group on the right on the icon bar (at the bottom of the screen) on the right side of my line, the other on the left side.

If I want to select all hand-to-hand combat units I hit Ctrl-H.

Same with the porno cav - i group the two on the right together, the two on the left together. When I look at my icon bar at the bottom of the screen, I know that the group of Pronoiai that is left of the the other group is on the left side of my formation.

I do not hard group my Gen or the Byz Cav (if I need to select all cav I use Ctrl-C).

Some folks also use the Ctrl+shift+number (0-9) to soft group units - usually the left side together (selct all units on the left side and then Ctrl-shift-1, then select all of the units on the right and Ctrl-shift-2, or whatever works for you and that army. Then, in battle, simply hit Ctrl-1 to select the units on the left (or Ctrl-2 to select those on the right).

As units deplete or are replaced I redo the groups.

ichi

[MrWhipple]

Great ichi, that's just what I had in mind but didn't have the time to say.

[hoom]

Hmmm, I do things somewhat differently, but then I use pause fairly often & have never played online...

I really like to have a nice organised & ballanced army.
I group by unit type and overall formation location.
Archers first (on the left) then spears (next to the archers because they are generally arranged in spear wall primarily as defence for the archers) then flanking/general infantry (generally grouped left/right but a centre group or two if I have a centre infantry behind the archers) then cavalry (if its a cav heavy army then they'll probably be left/right grouped)

So my army would look something like:

........ spear spear spear
..............archers
flank inf *2..archers..flank inf *2
............. archers
............. archers
...........centre inf *2
.............cavalry *3

While the grouping (hold down ctrl, select units to group, push 'g', groups & puts a group bar above them) will look something like this:
---- --- -- -- -- ---
AAAA SSS FI CI FI CCC

Or the infantry may be in two 3-unit groups.

For moving the whole army, 'ctrl-a' selects all & they will move more or less as one. (though I am unaware of 'hold formation' having any effect other than keeping the individual soldiers in a given unit in formation)

For setting up the army, click the group bar to select a group, then either left click or more commonly, drag them out in the position wanted.
Archers & often spears generally need to be set up one by one though.

In the midst of combat, either group select & charge at individual units (often as a precursor to...) or select individual units & give individual order so as to avoid unnecessary unit clumping.

Basically, big battles tend to go more or less:
Setup (setting up the initial formation/groups. I tend to do/queue it paused)
Closing (either moving to the enemy or waiting for him to come to you)
Archery (generally not used in offence unless I have lots of archers & he few/none)
Infantry charge (generally flanks first & if possible using 2-3 units to focus on stronger enemy units but the basic idea being to at least tie up the strong enemy units. If you're lucky, the enemy will suffer few losses before breaking from your charge)
Cavalry charge (send in the cavalry to flank & hopefully break strong units & to get through/round enemy lines to the weak missile/light inf units)
Rout (break off at least the slow infantry to let the cavalry have a good run at capturing as many fleeing enemy as possible)
Reform (generally a good idea to return to an orderly formation unless you're absolutely sure that there will be no reinforcements. Can/should be done while the rout is taking place)
Wait for next wave

[DojoRat]

One little trick I use is the select all option. After you set up into groups and put them into one formation you can move the whole bunch without changing any group alignments. This allows you to manuever in the opening stages of the battle with fewer hassles. Also, by hitting the space bar while a moving unit/group is highlighted you can see where you sent them. Both are pretty basic but I don't think they were mentioned.

Except in the above post

[Lord Rom]

One more really helpful key to memorize is the control-r. It makes all selected units run. Very handy getting everyone moving fast at the same time and when double click fails to work.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

To extend a bit on grouping 'a la ichi'

Ichi, forgive me if I misunderstood http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The basic idea is that your icon bar shall look like the positionning of your army on the field.


A little bit like this ;



http://www.thiep.com/~ffmtw/iB_html/uploads/post-19-13719-FormationTip.JPG



Green Arrow;
I have 2 JHI behind a xbow line; the JHI on the left, I put on the left (hehe), and the one on the right, watching for the right x bow

I a cavalry charge my left x bow, I know exactly what JHI is the closest from the action.

Red Arrow;
The main 'corps de bataille'; plenty of high valor archers.
The Janissary Infantry on the left will be on the left on the icon bar... the Futuwa line in center will be in center of the icon bar, and the right on the right

If I need to move on the left, I know that closeby units are likely to be on the left of my icon bar. So I just click on them, and there I am.

To group units in that order on the icon bar, just start by selecting units you want on your left, group them together, then units you want in center, group them together, and eventually the right... Et Voila

Louis,

PS: oddly enough talking about this topic with a few other people, it seems that grouping and control are very... personnal. I like to group units the way I describe, it helps me on the field, but many more experienced players have other habits I quite don't understand.... but which works for them
You can complain that the game is hard to control, but I credit CA with coming with different ways of achieving army control.

PS2; it's F2 to take screenshot.