View Full Version : Creative Assembly trying to rally units
I hate having to have a unit selected waiting for the rally flag to appear, so that it dosn't rout off the map into the redzone or i just might need to rally that unit fast cause i need it in the battle. Sometimes i waste to much time trying to rally units and lose focus on the battle. What's even worse is having a fast cav unit of yours routing and the rally flag goes off and on real fast cause it's moving through your units, so it can't rally there.
I think it would be nice to just have units rally as soon as the rally flag appears and also allow them to rally on top of units. Cav rally flags should come up faster since they are fast, so you get more chances to rally them. Sometimes i had cav rout almost half way through the map into the redzone without any rally flag, cause every time the rally flag appered it dissappered just as fast.
Maybe the amount of rally chances should be based on how fast they are moving and not a certain amount of time or is it by distance and i just can't tell?
It's a shame to see units wasted like this and really annoying if you ordered that unit to rout on purpose to pull it out of combat faster, or prevent it from being charged, or to lure the enemy into you. Sad, it really is.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Major Robert Dump
12-02-2003, 05:26
Rallies should be automatic. If a general wants to run his troops off the field, then withdraw is an appropriate enough command. However, with auto-rallies feint retreats would not work as well since (i think im right on this) a routing unit will run faster than from a simple withdraw, and withdrawing units dont read as "running" when the enemy checks them.
i'll just constantly select all and hit the rally flag when it comes up, and quickly select whichever units that manage to rally.
logically how fast a unit can be rallied depends on how 'safe' the men feel, i.e. distance from enemy, friendly nearby, general.. etc.. which in the game is reflected in the morale system i believe.
I dont mind the current 'inconvenience' because its a problem everyone has to face.. whoever manage this better will gain an edge.
Brutal DLX
12-02-2003, 10:54
Sometimes the units not rallying is just ridiculous. IIRC I've read somewhere that mass routs and fewer rally opportunities are implemented for a reason, to not drag the game on forever.
However, sometimes this system fails and it is just ridiculous. For example, it is perfectly understandable if a unit of 12 Templars can rout off some units of low morale units, peasants, missile troops, depleted troops, but it is ridiculous when they keep 2 or more almost full Elite units on the run all the way to the red zone across a quarter of the map with no opportunity to rally them. Talk about CMAA or VG. No matter how many other units are fleeing beside them, eventually those guys should realise "Hm, it's just 12 Templars and not the whole enemy army, why are we running away?" These are the times when I just go "argh" in a battle..
So definitely the whole rout and rally process should be reviewed for Rome.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I was just thinking to take this issue up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I agree with you all here..but especially in heat of battle is very hard to have good overview over rallying units.
Lord Rom
12-03-2003, 14:37
Right on Brother Amp. Those fast cav can be too far into the never-coming-back zone before you can find the right icon to click And I also hate it when I cant get a unit to disengage. I send my general to go route some measley pav's, see enemy horde approaching double click to disengage and.... double click doubleclickdoubleclick... ahhhhh control w, control w, too late route... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Hitting the rally button injects +8 morale into a unit. The rally button lights up when +8 morale is enough to rally the unit. I can guaranty you that, if rallying is made automatic, you'll simply loose the option of injecting this +8 morale. The gameplay will be just like it is now without ever hitting the rally button.
This is exactly the kind of thing that happened when some of us asked that units be purchased at valor 0 instead of valor 2 to avoid the honor sellback that players used in STW to get 16 monks at 5k. Yes we got the valor 0 purchase to avoid the sellback, and we assumed that the morale would be readjusted by +4 to compensate. It wasn't, and now we can clearly see that +4 morale is what mtw v1.1 needed to make 5k play correctly from a morale standpoint. Multiplayer mtw/vi would probably play better if units were purchased at valor 2 with the original morale of mtw v1.1. It's just like asking for larger maps. Who would have ever thought that fatigue wouldn't be readjusted to compensate for the larger maps. It wasn't.
Ability to disengage and routing away from the threat instead of towards a predetermined exit point were two community requested changes that were implemented, and I think they are both done quite well. The trouble with cav vs ranged is a seperate issue of ranged standing too long vs cav charge, and that problem gets worse as you go higher in florins.
Quote[/b] ]Hitting the rally button injects +8 morale into a unit.
Does that mean that, if a unit is loosing but not routing yet, I can boost it's morale and prolong it's fight by hitting the rally button before the unitt routs ? And if yes, how often does this work ? I can't imagine you can boost a unit's morale indefinitely this way.
Rout point is -16 in MTW v1.1, and probably moved to -18 in VI for MP. Routed units will keep routing until their morale rises to -6 or above. Hitting the rally key pumps +8 morale into a routing unit. It's a non-additive +8 bonus no matter how many times you hit the rally button. You can see from the numbers that something else has to happen, such as getting away from enemy units, to raise a routing unit's morale to -14 before +8 is enough to rally the unit. Routing units always run, and they get tired doing so. You get -3 morale from being very tired and -6 morale from being exhausted. That tends to offset the morale boost achieved by getting away from enemy units. The sooner a unit gets away from enemy units, the better chance it has of rallying.
I wouldn't mind rallying be automatic. Would be much better than watching units rout off the field cause you missed the rally flag by a sec or not being able to rally units for sometime just cause they pass over units when the rally flag pops up, so it dissappers again. The rally flag goes off and on even if there is nothing around to effect moral, except them fatiguin another lvl.
When you select all and hit the rally flag for routers, you'll cancel a rally chance for those that are routing which aren't yet able to rally. This is true cause i've had units rout twice as long or rout off the field.
In RTW since maps i heard are much bigger i hope you only have to chance units a certain amount of time and not all the way to the redzone.
Quote[/b] (AMPage @ Dec. 03 2003,18:12)]When you select all and hit the rally flag for routers, you'll cancel a rally chance for those that are routing which aren't yet able to rally.
Why is that?
i dont think it cancel the chance of those still routing. the button will light up when a unit is rallyable and is selected.. selecting a group and whenever the button lights up means one or some of those selected is rallyable i think.
the downside to select all and rally is unable to control which units to rally. i believe there is a threshold for rout/rally, i.e. units which are routed N times will not be able to rally back, so it is better for a unit to rout further from concentration of enemy / nearer to friends before rallying.
Hmm i could be wrong, maybe it just feels that way. I've have done it many times and it seems to cancel a rally chance even when they are a good distance from the enemy.
Maybe i could save a replay of me selecting all and hiting the rally and just tell you at what point i hit the rally for the routers. Than you could see the extra distance units are routing.
I could be wrong, though i've done it plenty of times it just feels like it dose that.
i know what you mean AMP, if you select rally as soon as it pops up then they wont always rally .. i think there are 3 important levels here
1. a unit gets to a moral level where the rally is highlighted but unit cannot yet rally
2 the morale has increased so that if you click rally the unit will rally
3. the unit rallies on its own
At stage 1 if you click rally you have to wait another intial period before you can try rally again where as if you wait till stage 2 it will rally first time. question is how yo judge when to click .. if im routing im normally just clicking anything i can asap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Yes that's what i mean Baz and it's not that big of a deal untill you start losing battles because of it.
Don't forget we also have the problem where units won't rally when they are over top another unit, the rally flag comes and goes real fast. It's sad watching any unit's rally flag pop up when that unit is over top another then goes away and off to the redzone that unit routs. And those fast cav routing half way across the map before getting a chance to rally. And it's not the cause of anything else, cause that unit will be well out of range from the enemy. I've had a cav at the start where the rally flag poped up and went anyway three times and then the cav routed into the redzone.
Dionysus9
12-11-2003, 23:41
I know what you mean too, AMP, and it sure feels like you are correct. I can remember several battles where I sent v2Alan Cav to attack pavs, and then I force-routed the Alans to escape from harm.
The Alans have basically the same # of men per unit and all faced the same morale threats, but one of the units rallies normally and the other runs off the map (quite a distance) without the icon lighting up. What gives?
It does seem, sometimes, like units just decide not to rally--for no apparent reason.
1dread1lahll
12-12-2003, 02:58
Generals are having no control over routing units? That is sort of realistic is it not? Left it alone, its fine, ur not suspose to have control oven routing units, youve lost control over them, thats why they are running away...
We aren't talking about trying to control the routers while they are running away, only about when they should rally and the bugs with rallying.
Dionysus9,
I think what you are describing might be the Benny Hill effect. If a unit falls back too many times, the unit will rout and never rally. Maybe manually routing a unit adds to in the Benny Hill counter or possibly there is just a random chance that a manually routed unit cannot be rallied.
I found each time I force rout Alan, they ran away for good.
Annie
Dionysus9
12-12-2003, 21:37
Hmm, a random factor which triggers the benny hill effect due to force-routing may very well exist. I doubt it was an intentional feature, but it is possible it exists.
I use force-route frequently and normally it doesn't cause my units to flee the field entirely. It happens most often with Alans and I think the problem might just be that they are sooooo fast they run off the map before they can rally. But I've seen it happen with other units too.
It doesn't happen to me everytime (like An has experienced), only maybe 1/5 of the time.
I think more likely is that, when you force route, it causes the unit's morale to drop by a random amount which is sufficient to cause the unit to rout. I.e. Morale drops by a factor of -15 to -25, maybe. If you get unlucky and their morale drops by 25, it will take a long time for them to regain enough morale to rally and they will flee the field before the rally icon lights up.
I consider this a bug, one way or the other, because a unit that is ordered to rout should rally much much faster than a unit that routs on its own. By force routing a unit you are saying "just get out of there, I dont care how brave you are-- run"-- once the unit is clear of all obvious danger it should quickly rally because it was ready to continue fighting until you gave the force-rout order.
This type of "minutia" will most likely never be addressed by the developers, so I don't know if it is even worth our time to discuss/explore...
Dionysus9
12-12-2003, 21:40
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....... also something I've noticed is sometimes units will DISREGARD the force-rout order. The most noticeble time that occurrs is when you order a mass rout (CTRL-A, CTRL-O, Y) to "resign", and some of your units continue to fight on You get the "please wait while game completes" message, but you still have units that are holding and fighting.
This further suggests there is a random morale drop applied to all units who are force routed-- and maybe sometimes the morale drop is so extreme it cant be recovered from, and sometimes it is not big enough to actually cause a rout.
hhhmmm...never thought about this stuff before. Good thread AMP.
Quote[/b] ]I consider this a bug, one way or the other, because a unit that is ordered to rout should rally much much faster than a unit that routs on its own. By force routing a unit you are saying "just get out of there, I dont care how brave you are-- run"-- once the unit is clear of all obvious danger it should quickly rally because it was ready to continue fighting until you gave the force-rout order.
I agree. We can't replace our units once they are gone, so it is a big deal.
Hopefully they'll add my one battle type idea adding places to control and you get florins to buy new units etc. This won't get rid of the problem, but will help. Or maybe they should just fix it. Something for RTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] ]hhhmmm...never thought about this stuff before. Good thread AMP.
I haven't really either untill we moved on to mtw and i started losing more due to the inbalances and faster game speed :/
1dread1lahll
12-13-2003, 01:18
Im talking about the same thing amp....you should not have any control over routers at all, not where they rally or if or when.....it might be possible to add some depth to the game to add a 'regroup' point... after a router has rallied he automatically walks back to this (predetermined by player) point...also a good general (planning for any contingenicy)..might set a predetermined point for troops that to gather after getting "sepperated" form his unit (thats polite code for having run away) these troops might have enough courage to run away to a regroup point...this wuold require 3 levels of morale for routers #1they are running but at least will go where you want them to go..#2 They are running and to hell with the generals regroup plans, but may rally yet; And last, the stark raving 'get-out-my-way' routers who arnt comming back, and left no fowarding address.
Well i said my share about it, not everone agrees on the samething. I like good balanced gameplay and having a good amount of control over my troops, so i know i lost to my playing, not any bugs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
There should be a form of ordered withdrawal specially for sinfantry and spear units , like walking backwards and keeping pursuers off with spears ...
TGI
1dread1lahll
12-14-2003, 02:21
i agree with the 'fighting withdrawal' idea....have the center back step and flanks hold ect...and Amp all ideas are good, as is the discussion about them, when someone puts forth an idea someone else may get another, dont look at it as disagreement but rather as debate by which a more prefect solution is arrived.
Voigtkampf
12-14-2003, 09:36
Quote[/b] (tgi01 @ Dec. 13 2003,07:22)]There should be a form of ordered withdrawal specially for sinfantry and spear units , like walking backwards and keeping pursuers off with spears ...
TGI
Exactly
I've always wanted this feature. Many times I wished that I could, after I've engaged the enemy, drow back my units in the center and encircle them on their flanks. Often, when I want a unit to disengage from fight and give out the order, they either get slaughtered in their inefficient attempt of withdrawal or start routing. IMHO, I found that is better too forget a unit fighting the enemy as long as the enemy isn't defeated. Organized withdrawal would give more depth and profoundity to TW, I hope it gets implemented in R:TW
ElmarkOFear
12-15-2003, 03:30
In Sid Meier's Gettysburg (SMG) game it was called "skirmish" mode. Since there is already a "Skirmish" mode in the Total War series (but totally different than the "skirmish" mode in Gettys), you could call it by another name. That way if your enemy wasn't paying attention you could "skirmish" your center line and hold on each end to draw the enemy into an ambush. Was a great tactic in SMG and would be fun for RTW too.
coming back to remark's about randomness (by AMP?) when one try to rally back a unit.. is there an official yes/no to that? cos yesterday i can't rally back a v1 mounted sergeant which got scared in its approach to the enemy trying to rout some shooters.. just ran away with about 35+ horses.. rally flags came up 3x but fail to rally it back even when it was behind my line in friendly area *rest of army not engaging in fact*.
1. is there a randomness during rally?
2. will a failure to rally affect the chance of subsequent attempt?
thanks.
Brutal DLX
12-19-2003, 11:54
Quote[/b] (tootee @ Dec. 19 2003,10:48)]coming back to remark's about randomness (by AMP?) when one try to rally back a unit.. is there an official yes/no to that? cos yesterday i can't rally back a v1 mounted sergeant which got scared in its approach to the enemy trying to rout some shooters.. just ran away with about 35+ horses.. rally flags came up 3x but fail to rally it back even when it was behind my line in friendly area *rest of army not engaging in fact*.
1. is there a randomness during rally?
2. will a failure to rally affect the chance of subsequent attempt?
thanks.
I don't know, but since they didn't rally (which happened to me too at times), I think the injected morale only lasts for a short time, ie, it doesn't add up, because if it did, hitting rally three times should really raise the morale above the non-routing threshold.
longjohn2
12-22-2003, 15:41
There's no specific random factor in morale, other than the difficulty of exactly repeating positioning, or knowing exact fatigue level etc.
When you hit the rally key, the unit gets a temporary morale bonus which will rally them if their morale is good enough. The number of times you try to rally does not affect things.
If a unit's morale recovers sufficiently, it will rally automatically
long time no see LJ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Thanks for sharing the details.
Merry X'mas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
I talked about the rally flag going off and on when that unit is over top of a unit, which causes it to flash on and off real fast making me having to have my finger on the rally button so i don't miss it. It dosn't happen to me every game, but it dose happen.
I also was asking if there is a time delay before a unit could rally back which isn't based on how fast a unit is moving. It causes fast units to rout off the map without getting a chance to rally. I know units need there moral high enough before the rally flag comes up, but it also seems theres is a time delay before it can rally back up.
The only time delay I can think of is the dynamic morale penalty for suffering a casualty. If your unit routs because it looses a man, that unit will be suffering a temporary morale penalty. I believe the penalties due to multiple casualties add together if they overlap. I don't know how long the penalty lasts or how big it is. Some time ago LongJohn was going to look at the code and let us know, but I think it slipped his mind with all the other things he is working on.
There are a couple of other effects to consider about routing units. Units which rout turn their back on the enemy which means they get hit with a flanking penalty of -2. If two flanks are threatened it's -6. The unit has to get away from the enemy to remove the flanking penalty. Also, routing units always run and get hit with running fatigue. If the unit becomes very tired it gets -3 morale, and exhausted is -6 morale. So, initially flanking penalty is going to make it difficult to rally, and, once the routing unit gets away from the enemy, the fatigue penalty might be kicking in to keep its morale depressed. Passing through friendly units is another thing which could keep a routing unit running longer than it otherwise might making the fatigue problem worse.
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