Time Limit

[Ja'chyra]

This has probably been asked before but I've only been reading here for a couple of weeks.:wave:


I've been playing this game since it was released, the best IMHO, and I've always switched the time limit off as I see it as a bit of a cop out. Kind of like the general packing up because his mum told him he had to be home before dark.

What does everyone else think, cop out or cunning defense strategy? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif

[Cazbol]

I didn't know one could disable the time limit. I have to start paying attention.

[Derfal Cadarn]

errr yes no maybe :-)

when you are the defender then maybe it can be a cop out waiting for teh 30 minutes or whatever limit is set to run out. then again you have 200 men camped on a hill against a force of 2000, the attacking force fail to make a break through , suffer appauling losses. In real life i would like to assume from a defenders point of view that anybody that can hold a weapon would be forced to stop hiding and get out there and support the army, unless they to be slaughtered later, and maybe the time limit is used to suggest that a thousand peasants armed with rolling pins, pots and pans and anything else they can get hold of, have turned up on the battlefield, and thus the attacking army then deiceds discretion is better part of valour.

as for attacking, well i think having a time limit focuses your mind on the task in hand and encourages you to think tactically as opposed to throwing numbers into a battle. Ive lost a number of battles due to time limit expriring and i dont consider this as an annoyance but more as a failure of mine to distribute my troops effectively.

So all in all im more than happy to play agaisnt a set time limit :-)

[Somebody Else]

I remember once I was involved in a siege - the Mongols had attacked one of my castles. I had two units of chivalric men-at-arms - fully upgraded, waiting in the inner courtyard. The castle defences destroyed the Mongol mangonel. They then could not destroy the walls, and for some reason didn't charge the gates. I couldn't get my men out to engage them, as the gates locked themselves on my men. In the end I was forced to quit or spend the rest of eternity staring at two immobile armies. With a time limit - there would have been some sort of conclusion, rather than the indignified surrender of my castle without my men spilling a drop of blood.

[[DnC]]

I used to play with the time limit on. For a while now I play with the time limit off. Sure the offensive battles are easier due to having an unlimited amount of time, but on defense you'll have to completely rout the enemy or make them withdraw. Longer pitched battles in the smaller fights can also be fun Though Derfal Cadarn has a good point too about having the time limit on.

Somebody Else,

I totally forgot that sometimes the AI just stands still as if the ice age suddenly started and froze them stiff. That would indeed mean defeat eventhough you could have survived in the castle.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

I only have a limited amount of time I can devote to playing the game. Because of this, I would never make it past 1231 when the Horde appears in Khazar, unless I use the time limit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Ironside]

On rare occasions a unit can be trapped at the edge of the map if they withdraw. It has happened to me several times on I seen the computer having this problem once. For you it's cureable by pressing stop, wait for the unit to walk back on the battlefield and try to withdraw it again or rout it. But the comp doesn't know about it and is trapped for the rest of the battle that lasts forever if you don't have a timelimit. Ofcourse you can press esc but then you lose the battle.
This happens only on heavy forrested maps and I assume that the unit gets trapped by a tree.


Citera[/b] ]I've been playing this game since it was released, the best IMHO, and I've always switched the time limit off as I see it as a bit of a cop out. Kind of like the general packing up because his mum told him he had to be home before dark.


Name the numbers of battles that was fought in daylight and then name those fought in nighttime. Both side usually withdrawed when the night came, to resume fighting the day after or to retreat during the night. Nighttime battles was almost always sneak attacks.

So yes their mom said that they had to go home before dark. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I play the battles with time limit, mostly because it's most realistic.

[Ja'chyra]

Fraid I can't agree with that last one Ironside, wasn't the optimum time to attack just before when the sentries are at their sleepiest?

Maybe not true for battles with tens of thousands of men but definately for smaller battles and castle assaults. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[The_Emperor]

Time limit on or off?

Hmmm...

I do like the time limit have it on, but at other times it does get tiresome.

I mostly hate it when I am chasing fast cavalry armies around the map... The AI always does this when defending and turns a battle into a game of cat and mouse by moving from hill to hill all over the map (of course its way better at this than a human) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So while I do like the time limit, I do get very tired of chasing enemies around the map with only a limited window to win the battle.

But its only fair that whats good for me when I defend is good for my enemy when the situation is reversed...

[lancer63]

Time limit off definitely. Even if I get in trouble with units stuck around a tree after a 6 hour long battle and have to escape. I'll take my chances.

[Obex]

Time limit OFF. This goes back to my shogun days, when i would loose a battle simply because my 1000 men failed to find the 6 hidden yari in a forest somewhere. Plus i too hate loosing because i couldnt finish the benny hill cav archer chase in time. Lame and lame.

[HawaiianHobbit]

Time limit on. It's usually the only way I win defence battles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[invalidopcode]

Time limit off.

The cheese factor is too high with the timer on because you can just run some horse archers around the map. The muslim AI factions did this to me constantly when I first started playing the game.

I do agree, though, that the battles with the Mongols are painfully long with the timer off... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Invalid Opcode

[Papewaio]

Time limit on as it gives the AI a chance to win.

If I don't have the means to take a province within the time limit then I don't deserve it.

As for defending... I don't play hide and seek and run down the time limit... it is more of using the high ground and/or hunt and destroy.

[Quokka]

Quote[/b] (Ja'chyra @ Dec. 04 2003,04:06)]Fraid I can't agree with that last one Ironside, wasn't the optimum time to attack just before when the sentries are at their sleepiest?

Maybe not true for battles with tens of thousands of men but definately for smaller battles and castle assaults. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Battles often began in the dark of early morning, but rarely did they start before dawn, fight all day and then continue into the night.

I play with the timer on. I have limited time to play and this helps keep things focused for me. The idea of even longer Mongol battles is enough to make me quit playing.

[Beaufou]

always off,

I hate being the attacker and chase a small army up a mountain side and finally end up in a terrible strategic position when the battle start.
All because of time limit.

[Eastside Character]

Time limit works in favour of defender, so whether you use it or not depends on what you are better at - defending or attacking. If you want the game to be a little more challenging, and you're skilled attacker http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif , its good to have time limit on (so to give the AI some chances), but if you're rather skilled defender http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif , then I would say time limit off adds some more challenge.

But if you a maniac eager to play 2 or 3 hour battles... well... time limit? what time limit? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Imperial Buffoon]

Time limit on for practical and realism reasons:
- I just can't spend as much time as I'd like to playing and I'd rather face some different challenges each time. A 3 hour battle against the horde is more of a challenge for my bottom than it is for my intellect. Plus I feel it puts some limits on the AI faults (a unit getting lost in the middle of nowhere, reinforcements getting stuck one behind the other and not allowing routing units to escape, etc...)
- very large encounters lasted more than one day, with units being withdrawn from the front to rest and coming back again, so it makes sense to have an urgency to attack if reinforcements are coming.
IB

[ichi]

Off.

Very frustrating to be winning only to have the timer go off.

Very cheesy to be losing and be saved by the bell.

Especially in MP, timer off.

ichi

[katar]

now it`s always on.

how would you feel if you got so fed up you waiting for the enemy to attack you walk away from the computer for a hour and the damned idiots still hadn`t attacked

that scunnered me so much i always keep it on nowadays.

[Nelson]

The first version of Shogun did not have an optional battle timer. You were stuck with it. I and some others here, or at least what this place used to be years ago (the old dojo), lobbied for it to be an option. And behold CA listened.

I always turn it off as I find it gamey and UNrealistic because even on the winter solstice a commander would have hours to fight, not 30 minutes or whatever. Anyway, a lot of people like the timer and use it so it's nice to have a toggle option we can all live with.

[andy the lionheart]

i think it is a great way to play more then a few battles have been fought and had to be stop due to a kind of time limit night time so the way i see it the battles a like real life there is all way a time limit some where.
As Wellington (england second great commander after nelson give me the prussians or give me night from the battle of waterloo)
well that what i think
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[scudknight]

Time limit on for me - I've never actually had it run out as an attacker, either I've won or withdrawn by then. I'm not going to sit around after four hours with my general's unit left trying to be macguyver with 20 lances and a hill left out of a 1000+ men - and as a defender with time limit on it seems like it gives the AI the option of waiting or baiting me out, which I just don't have time for. Either come and get it or withdraw from the map.

[andy the lionheart]

scudknight is right fight or go time limit on. scudknight i would love to face u on the field of honour some day
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

no

[Cruelsader]

'Off' when I expect storming a major castle. Otherwise 'on'. I hate to have to rush the gates before my artillery has run out of ammunition just because the time constraints. I have never run out of time as an attacker during a normal fight even though I rarely engage the enemy head on. When defending the time limit is handy against the horde.

[Togakure]

I don't use the time limit feature.

No, I don't think it's a cop out. I think peeps would do well to play how they like to play. What others think about how another plays is of no consequence. The point of playing a game is to have fun, and for some, to learn something. So I say, have fun doing what you enjoy doing, and let others think, say, and do what they like.

[Volucer]

I normally leave it on becuase sometimes I won't be able to sit at my PC for hours in a milti-stack battle.

I'm normally attacking anyways so I consider it a challenge rather than a cop-out.

[Somebody Else]

Personally I leave the time limit on - it gives me more of an incentive to bring about a decisive engagement when attacking, and anyway, I've only ever hit the time limit once (though it was somewhat scabby on my part - I ran my one unit of hobilars around the high valour Aragonese army until the time ran out... and thus won)

[Gregoshi]

Welcome aboard Volucer. Around here we keep the time limits off...(whatever I mean by that...)

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ Dec. 03 2003,22:43)]Time limit on as it gives the AI a chance to win.

If I don't have the means to take a province within the time limit then I don't deserve it.

As for defending... I don't play hide and seek and run down the time limit... it is more of using the high ground and/or hunt and destroy.
I stopped reading this thread once I reached this post. Papewaio, has said it all. Time Limit s/b on.

In reality, one does not have unlimited time to win a battle. Battles s/b won as quickly and efficiently as possible. Despite TV and the Movies, and the odd battle making it to the history books. A human isn't going to stick around for very long while bodies are falling all around him. Go into a battle with 100 of your buddies and 20 of them die in 20 minutes---I do believe its time to leave http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Too many seem to miss the quite obvious battle goal in the game that is Total War. Which is to make the enemy FLEE To do so with as few of your men killed as possible.

It is NOT to grind it out in a mass of man for hours on end (hence turning off time limits). Turning Time Limit off, cause one to resort to STAGNANT strategies. In general, no matter what the *pre-battle* circumstance, its easy to resort to the same ole slug-it-out type strategy.

With Time Limits on, and a pursuit of the goal to win as quickly as possible, this forces one to be innovative. To devise a battle plan---THAT INCLUDES PREVENTING THE victory by straggler loss

If you lose the battle as a result of Time Limitation, then one must realize that one has devised and/or effected an inefficient strategy; and, ahhh, this *IS* a strategy game isn't it?

The greatest number of casualties are inflicted upon a FLEEING army.

When viewing a battlefield, the question that needs to be asked and needs to be answered, is: How do I cause the enemy to Flee? (before it gets dark).

Consistently, answer the question, then you are a strategist. Fail to answer the question, consistently, then you are not.

Turning Time Limit off, imunho, is a dis-service to the incredible, DETAILED, THOUGHT, and EFFORT, that The Creative Assembly devised and found ways to implement that portray the VAGARIES of battle so incredibly effectively; without which TW would be just another run-of-the-mill game.

All the above being said, CA did the correct thing in making Time Limitation OPTIONABLE.

I think the answer to the original poster's question can be broken down into two catagories:

1) Those who play for purely for amusement and wish the least frustration; and

2) Those who wish to play for *sport* and desire to be the best possible player.

In the first case, go ahead turn it off, enjoy yourself, but in the second case, NEVER turn it off. Strive and once you have mastered the VAGARIES of the game---then there will be NO stragglers.

---

Look to the Sky, note the passing of the Sun, the battle rages, all will be lost with the Sun....

At this moment, one must become SHOGUN

~ToranagaSama

[fruitfly]

I've always left the time limit on. I got used to having it around after playing Shogun and have never really seen any need to switch it off.

In MTW, the more units of reinforcements either side has, the longer the time limit tends to be anyway. I've fought battles against the horde where the time limit itself has been four hours (I'm pretty sure that's right... it's early and I need coffee), and I'm sure others have had it longer than that. I think the time calculated gives either side ample opportunity to win the battle.

Attacking, I've never run out of time, either routing the enemy or being utterly destroyed (there's rarely much middle ground). Defending, on the other hand, I've reached the time limit twice. Once was a bridge battle against the Byzantines, where my Egyptians didn't have enough archers, ran out of arrows and it got stuck in a bottleneck on the bridge for about an hour. I went to get a cup of tea while that one was resolving itself on maximum speed, but if the AI's too dumb to attack the second bridge on the map, that's not my fault. The other time was an epic struggle with the English against the Germans where both generals died and I was left with 18 men still alive in two units facing a bunch of German ballistas and catapults. I knew my men would rout if I tried to chase them off the field and came under fire, and the Germans just sat there not bothering to retreat or anything, so in the end the timer ran out. I figured the onus was on them as the attackers to win the battle and didn't see the point in making a move I knew was guaranteed to lose it for me. Without the timer in either case, I'd have probably lost so it did give me an edge as the defender, but as others have said it helps to focus your mind as the attacker and can help prevent endless battles where you're forced to press esc to resolve them.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Ironside @ Dec. 03 2003,11:17)]Name the numbers of battles that was fought in daylight and then name those fought in nighttime. Both side usually withdrawed when the night came, to resume fighting the day after or to retreat during the night. Nighttime battles was almost always sneak attacks.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif
I totally agree with Ironside, playing with the time limit toggled off isn´t realistic. I remember playing STW and got slaughtered with only 2 cav left so I just kept running around the map avoiding confrontation until the attacker got so exhausted that their morale dropped and they turned tails and went home. That isn´t right Right?

[Ludens]

I play with time limit off. Its being argued that time limit adds realism and challenge to the game, and this is true to a certain extent, but what it also adds is a rush. I'm playing STW and in the winter you just have twenty minutes And since I like to take my time positioning my troops (and sneaking them around my opponent's back), I can get over that twenty minutes even in small battles It's perhaps realistic that the actual battle takes place in less than an hour, but that does not include the manouvering. And in my battles manouvering takes up the most time. In real battles, armies also took some time deploying, and waiting for the men to catch their breath. During this time the skirmishers did their job. The real battles (the part about which the poets wrote http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) were of course over in a few hours. So I think that time limit is unrealistic and just makes the game more hasty.
Yes, I'm a slow player, yes, I do not deploy my army in a time-efficient way, but this is the way I like to fight battles, because in this way I can fight them in a way that suits my strategical style.

But perhaps MTW handles these thinges differently. And I assume that it might be relieve to fight against the Mongels with time limit on, because to fight four stacks of crack troop might be a bit too time consuming.

But perhaps I will switch time limit on when I get better.
Or when I start playing MTW.

Ludens

[ToranagaSama]

There's nothing different between STW and MTW regarding the Time Limit.

Like you, I take a long time to position my troops. Normally, a third to a half of the clock. Once in place, the battle usually lasts about a third of the clock or less. Yes, its a race and its part of the game and realistic.

Turning on the time limitation will *force* you to get better.

If CA is listening, the capability to create Custom formations would be a great help with time management. I NEVER use the CA formations to fight a battle.

Curious, do any of you?

TIP: I will often review CA's formation and choose the one which most closely resembles or will best allow me to maneuver my units into my *custom* formations. It can save a good 5 or 10 minutes.

[Etym]

Like TogakureOjonin said, I think peeps would do well to play how they like to play.

I've never played with the timer off, but it can obviously be useful. I didn't figure out the cavalry trick to win timed defensive battles, and don't think I'll use it. A nice dodge, that, but still a dodge IMHO.

The timer did come in handy for me at least once. I held Kazar when the Golden Horde showed up. I had 3000+ (mostly spears) waiting for them, and they sent in 13,000+, with at least 9000 cavalry and horse archers. The battle took forever. I had to pause for sleep and to go to work, so it took a good part of 3 days to finish. When time ran out and the scoreboard popped up, I saw that the defender had to hold out a bit over 3 hours to win on time. The Horde still had over 3000 reinforcements uncommitted to battle by the end. I might have been able to outlast them without the timer, but I was getting damned bored. The AI trickled cavalry units into my line for the last 2/3 of the time limit. It was too much of the same thing, and I'm grateful I didn't have to do it another 30 times to keep my hard-fought win.

[Papewaio]

Alt-T... speed up the game, sweet.

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ Dec. 17 2003,04:29)]There's nothing different between STW and MTW regarding the Time Limit.

Like you, I take a long time to position my troops. Normally, a third to a half of the clock. Once in place, the battle usually lasts about a third of the clock or less. Yes, its a race and its part of the game and realistic.

Turning on the time limitation will *force* you to get better.

If CA is listening, the capability to create Custom formations would be a great help with time management. I NEVER use the CA formations to fight a battle.

Curious, do any of you?

TIP: I will often review CA's formation and choose the one which most closely resembles or will best allow me to maneuver my units into my *custom* formations. It can save a good 5 or 10 minutes.
You can arrange custom formations by editing the preset formations file. Of course you have to grasp the way they are describing the deployment first and do some try and error. But it is possible. Perhaps some modders in the dungeon could help you out.
However, those formations would not be usable in MP or LAN games.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ Dec. 17 2003,05:29)]There's nothing different between STW and MTW regarding the Time Limit
Why then do I keep hearing about massive battles fought with the Mongol Horde, which lasted 3 hours and were only won because the time limit ran out (most recent example: Etym in this thread)?
In STW battles the timer just last 20 or 30 minutes depending in which season you fight.

[Gregoshi]

I wondered at this too until it happened to me. It seems that when the number of men (on one side? on both sides?) exceeds a certain level, the timers slows down dramatically. I was dumbfounded when it happened. I fought the Mongols (surprise), their 14000 to my 4900, for about a half an hour and the timer hadn't even advanced a quarter of the way yet. That battle continued on for just under 4 hours and ended because the Mongols ran out of reinforcements. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ludens]

And does this also work in STW?

(Not that I think that one would notice, since multi- (>2) stack armies seem to be as common in MTW as they are rare in STW. And no, I never met the Hojo Horde, because I don't like those western beggers )

[Sun Tzui]

Time limit definitely on.

If you're attacking a province you better be ready to go for the jugular and kill the opponent outright, if you're defending either make a stand and fight or retreat, no hide and seek pls.

The game could benefit from a series of preset limits (30, 60, or 120 min), or reflect light changes from daytime to nightime in battles without limit.

In any case this reflects a personal choice, and I think its a good thing the game allows to turn the timew limit on or off.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[LittleGrizzly]

i like a slow well thought out battle rather than a quick mad rush, i like to gain an advantage over the enemy with every movement i make to totally eclipse the enemy on the battlefield is the way to go.....

[HopAlongBunny]

Sometimes yes

Sometimes no

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ja'chyra]

Or as they say in Gods own country maybes aye maybes no http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Etym]

[QUOTE]The game could benefit from a series of preset limits (30, 60, or 120 min), or reflect light changes from daytime to nightime in battles without limit.

Good idea, Sun Tzui. I'd turn it off if the sun went down.