View Full Version : archer killing power
I just wonder what is the highest number of kills that can be achieved with a SA as a ranged unit. My experience is that they can get 50-60 kills in an average battle (against the AI), rarely up to 70.
Cheetah
That's too conventional. I am sure that my SAs have scored 100+ kills per unit before.
If you want really impressive kill count, try muskets. 300+ per unit (60 men setting) is average.
(off topic but once I had a unit of HC that collected 500+ heads)
BSM_Skkzarg
01-11-2002, 05:36
Most of my SA's average aroung 120-130 total for a 60 man unit. On some terrain, such as bridges or EXTREMELY steep hills where the enemy brings lots of archers - I have seen it upwards of 200. I have not yet hit 250+ yet, unless using unlimited ammo.
A couple of hints - 3 rows in wide formation, on as steep as a hill as you can find. Keep them off fire at will, and wait till u can fire into a mass of 2 or 3 units trying to walk thru each other - this greatly increases the chance that an arrow will hit a body...
On a river, fire all together in volleys, right when they reach halfway across - which will put most arrows into the thickest portion of crossing troops.
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
Interesting strategy.
However, sometimes the kill count per unit is NOT as important as the killing rate.
Most of the battles (except for long defensive battles) are over before the missile units use up their ammo. Thus you want them to shoot all the time.
If can kill 70 with my archers in an mp battle i am as happy as a person with 176 honour.
How many kills have u got with archers h2h? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
Never mind the arrows http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)
[This message has been edited by Shoko (edited 01-10-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
How many kills have u got with archers h2h? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
Never mind the arrows http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
[/QUOTE]
Once I had something like 200:20 against warrior monks!
Wait, I mean, I lost 200 archers, that is. Forgot to wedge them, crap...
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 01-10-2002).]
Katasaki Hirojima
01-11-2002, 08:09
I'v seen you pros rave about hw powerfull muskets are "300+ kills" and the like.
That seems pretty far fetched to me since I'v rarely if ever procured more then a hundred kills from musketmen. Its not a lack of tactics, I mean how much tactical knowhow chould be involved. Just point them in the right direction and fire.
Its good though that you guys can get so many kills. Muskets are SUPPOSE to be better then archers, otherwise brittan whoulda kept useing longbows.
Please, enlighten me to art of musket warfare.
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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.
Shimazu2
01-11-2002, 08:19
Archers? the game has become so curropt that the archers are almost forgoten... now you NEVER see a army with no guns (unless the host calls that there are to be no guns) the archers are one of my fav units... even tho i hardly use them.. they are yet again a unglorfied unit... now any foolish ashigaru can kill a honourable samurai with a gun... yet in the old days ranged battles were fought with small sticks that were flung through the air at high vilocities... but the ashigaru is once again the overglorfied unit... with more ammo and more kills per volley, these guys are once again the top units... BAH
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"I am what I am"
-Popeye the sailor man
[This message has been edited by Shimazu2 (edited 01-11-2002).]
My standard army always consists 3SA 1CA and 2Musk.. no wonder I'm losing so often.. not enof musk http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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tootee the goldfish
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theforce
01-11-2002, 18:57
If you are defending with archers on a very high hill then you can kick major ass with them.
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html
I dont think Archers are too weak...but guns are too strong which makes the archers look weak if you try and duel them.
1master1Boromir
01-11-2002, 19:24
Quote Originally posted by LordTed:
If can kill 70 with my archers in an mp battle i am as happy as a person with 176 honour.[/QUOTE]
yes, I remember when LordTed was online all the time in pursuit of great honour. Now he reaches the top he seems to want to bask in the glory... Surely the true glory of "having 176 honour" is to put yourself on-the-line online and let people try to knock you down.
But that aside, Congratulations for seeking what you desire. A good goal attained.
Boromir
You need to know that in patch 1.02 archers were made to WIN against guns until their ammo finished. And they do it...until their ammo finishes...
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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser. http://terazawa.totalwar.org/malta_md_clr.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)
but thats the prob...their ammo does finish and they still dont get a whole heap of kills on guns if guns are in loose.
shingenmitch2
01-11-2002, 20:20
Rath --
that's why you have to use one word:
"Strategery"
(SNL relate for those overseas)
shingenmitch2
01-11-2002, 20:25
GAH! just realized virtually everyone is from overseas -- SNL Saturday Night Live (sketch comedy show) During the 2000 election they did a skit, where they were making a joke about Bush's occaisonal fumbling/mixing words. They "asked" him to sum up his campaign in one word, so he said with confidence: "Strategery"
Rath,
The archers in v1.02 are better against guns, but they cannot defeat a musk in ranged combat. In all the forum posts that I've read since STW was released, I've never seen anyone claim that an archer unit should win the ranged battle. However, I would have liked the archer to be a bit more effective against musk than it currently is. Overall I'd say the musk is still too strong with typically 100 - 200 kills in an online game on open ground in dry weather. If you are out gunned in that situation, you basically have to rush and hope the guns run away, but it's very difficult to do with the slower infantry.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
BSM_Skkzarg
01-11-2002, 21:50
In the original "Shoggy", archers had a slightly greater range than gunpowder weapons, which helped offset the superior penetration (damage) factor of guns. WE/MI has guns and bows with the exact same range, and since the gun has more kick, along with what appears to be more ammo, and the psycological bonus, it is not suprising that muskets are the preferred choice for ranged units.
Once you realize the advantages of guns, and the fact that they are more of a direct fire weapon (as compared to arching fire of arrows), its easy to understand why, especially from a height, guns are more effective. Archers often aim and fire on a target that is moving - sometimes rapidly. This allows units at longer range to "run under" the first couple of salvo's from archers, with minimal losses. This is made worse on hills, as archers have a REAL touch time hitting units that are at medium range but far below them. The flatter trajectory of gunpowder weapons means that no unit can perform such a "run under". Thus, each salvo causes all the more damage, both to men and to morale.
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
Guns eclipsed bows in the 16th century. It's a fact we ought to live with in the game. The Japanese understood this almost at once. If Oda got the picture why can't everyone else?
BSM_Skkzarg,
I measured archer and musk range carefully in STW, and they both open fire at the same range on flat ground. That is the distance at which the cursor turns from red to green.
MizuYuuki ~~~
without guns its hard to win,
BUT...the archers give u strategic options...
much more than guns...
1th there is a cavarcher, most guys use them with H0...well, with still a high charge bonuss, if u try this unit with h2....u will be surprised
dont forget, that the archers need some volleys if they hit good, the first volleys arnt such good than they become very hot
3rd the archers have a better moral than the guns
some guys use high honour guns, to make sure, that they dont run away if they got less on men, so...the other units are weaker
than urs, if they got normal guns, with maybe H2, than u bring them below 30 men and make them tired....
all together i think they archers are ok, mabe they should shoot a bit faster...
koc
solypsist
01-11-2002, 23:11
I've tended to get around three-figures for archer kills on good terrain or bridge defense. never got more than 30 or 40 kills with muskets, except in odd situations (the bridge defense of my four musket units vs. 4000 enemy)
Uh-oh 100+ kills even up to 200!!! I have lot to learn ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Do you know guys how many arrows do they have? This would set the upper limit, unless one allows two or more kills with one arrow.
Cheetah,
The archer units all have 28 arrows/man. For a 60 man unit, that's 1680 arrows total. You always get to shoot the total arrows even if some men in the unit are killed. You cannot get two kills with one arrow.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Cln Takiyama ~~~
its 28 arrows i think.
archer firing rate should increase, as should ammo, i can fire off arrows quicker than shogun portrays samurai to.
Also, at close ranges archers would fire directly at the enemy, not firing in parabolas. A volley before then enemy closed for mele, archers should be able to take out the front row.
the ammosize is ok!
if u give the archer more ammo, u dont need guns anymore.
no, the ammount of ammo is ok, just a bit faster...
to make them a bit more dangerus.
koc
Quote Originally posted by 1master1Boromir:
yes, I remember when LordTed was online all the time in pursuit of great honour. Now he reaches the top he seems to want to bask in the glory... Surely the true glory of "having 176 honour" is to put yourself on-the-line online and let people try to knock you down.
But that aside, Congratulations for seeking what you desire. A good goal attained.
Boromir
[/QUOTE]
It is a fair comment to say that, but as their always is one, I can play one more big challenge, but as the battle records show I won a 171 player 30 games ago, so from then on I need to play someone of equal or greater points to draw even or its accept a challenge win(if i do) and still lose points.... its a bit of a dialema which I am sure result me losing sometime soon.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
hmmm ... 1680 arrows total. If you get 168 kills (optimistic scenario) this means 1 kill for 10 arrows. Is this a good ratio or not?
Flame of Udun
01-12-2002, 05:08
I once got 310 kills from an archer unit (120 men) they were facing Ashigaru so... lol. I dont understand why people say that archers are too weak in melee When my line start to break and my SA out of ammo i Send them in to fight they can beat YS, YA if they are less tired and can take out guns if they reach them...
Quote Originally posted by shingenmitch2:
Rath --
that's why you have to use one word:
"Strategery"
[/QUOTE]
I was talking about a 1v1 duel...not much chance to use 'strategery' there sm2.
Archers should be more effective than guns in a shootout...guns should only be firing once or twice per min and there is nothing in the game to deal with the fact that some guns would break after a few volleys.
BSM_Skkzarg
01-12-2002, 05:31
Puzz - in original shoggy - group a musket and an SA on a river - place them both facing the river - with the bridge split between them. Have them on hold position / formation and when the foe closes - experiment - you order them to fire (not waiting on them to fire on their own) and you will find the archers will fire while the guns will move forward a bit then fire.
Its not a huge difference - but it is enough to make a difference. In WE/MI - archers and muskets have the same range whether on fire at will or ordered to fire at a specific target.
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
BanzaiZAP
01-15-2002, 17:14
Tracking archer kills is tough for me, because I have a tendency to throw them into melee, too, so their kills go up, even though it was by blade, not bow.
Position makes a huge difference. The higher the elevation, the higher the kills. Elevation means the arrow does more damage, to the chance of a kill is higher. Honor, too, makes a huge difference. Higher honor means more accuracy with the shots.
I have them shoot from the hilltop, then charge down into the enemy lines. Lots of kills, but I do go through a lot of archers...
-- B)
theforce
01-15-2002, 18:57
Hmmmm fire rate of the archers is nice l think, a bit more arrows would be a good idea like 35. That would make them kill more guns. Archers are good in winning you the projectile fight. Guns archer combo works woder for me. You can send the archers on the one side and along with your guns will send those poor muskets to hell http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html
GAH! Archers fire toothpicks at enemy saps! Arquebusiers have balls of lead. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
My 10 archer (honour 3) beat the crap out of a 16 unit army made of 2 monks , 12 ashigaru and 2 archers.
The map had 2 tall hills facing each other (space in between was enough to move 4 units side by side) and had a forest up top of each hill.
I hid 9 of my archers on the forest (concealed) and put the last archer between the hills. I used it as a lure to make the enemy rush my archer unit.. and ran straight through the hills with all their ashigaru, their archers climbed up the hill (1 each hill). when the ashigarus were in the middle of the hill and their archers almost on the top, I rushed my archers out of the forest, made 1 unit from each hill melee the enemy archers to till they routed (which was quick since the enemy archers were basically downhill and flanked).. and proceeded with the mother of all turkey shoots. When the ashigarus saw all my archers they routed, running through the middle of the hill as my archers rained death on them.
I got 740 heads and lost 3 men. Out of those 740 I think 20 or so were meelee kills (their archers routed when I rushed them).
Well, your example is kinda the "easy" use of archers since with your 10 archers hon3:
1) you can concentrate fire on the 2 monks destroying them completely (10- units) in maybe about 4 rounds with 5 archers firing. When the monks are dead most ashis would rout immediately and the archers shortly follow. Crappy army with crap AI = your win.
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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser. http://terazawa.totalwar.org/malta_md_clr.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)
Maybe i will start using them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Muskets beat SA in range fire http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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