View Full Version : What the heck??!
First off, a thousand apologies if this has been brought up before. But I just ran into a very strange thing last night that I hadn't encountered til now, and I was wondering if anyone else has seen this.....
I was playing as the Spanish (Domination game, Normal), and I was getting ready to invade Navarre. Their entire army (300 men) consisted of 1 unit spearmen and 2 units of peasants--not a ranged unit among them. So I decided I'd have my prince lead an army of largely missle units (mostly archers, of course, but with some jinnettes and javelins as well) along with some infantry to protect them. With the enemy only fielding low-level melee troops, I figured I ought to have a fair shot at killing off Navarre's army (such as it was ) without taking a single casualty myself. (Not that such a goal was necessary, of course, but I wanted to see if I could do it.)
Well it didn't quite work out the way I planned. The battle started out well enough: The Navarrans (sp?) occupied a good spot on top of a hill, but despite that, my archers still began turning many of the enemy soldiers into pincushions. I had slain nearly a hundred men before Navarre decided to abandon their original position and charge my advancing troops.
Even before that happened, however, I was beginning to realize that something odd was going on; some of my archers were beginning to take losses. Not many; but considering that they weren't engaged in hand-to-hand, it shouldn't have even been possible. Well, when I looked at my archers' icons on the bottom of the screen, it was showing the "under fire" symbol. Out of curiosity, I had my archers stop firing for moment, and sure enough--there were arrows coming from Navarre's guys that were still on top of the hill I double-checked to make sure that they hadn't somehow managed to hide a unit of archers from me, but their spearmen and their peasants (what was left of them) were all they had.
The battle was still won easily enough; I'd brought way more troops than I really needed (700, to be exact). I only took something like 15 casualties, while killing/capturing over 250--believe me, I'm not complaining about the outcome. Still, I have to wonder how it was that Navarre could fire arrows at me when they didn't have a single missle unit in their entire army.
So has anyone else come across this phenomenon before; and if so do they have an explanation for it? Are peasants armed with bows and I've somehow managed to miss this fact (I've been playing Medieval for over a year)? Do Navarre (and/or certain other provinces) give troops there the double ability to fight with both melee and ranged weapons? Is it simply a bug? If it is, that's fine; I can certainly live with it. I would just like to know what the explanation is.
Snowhobbit
12-07-2003, 02:13
I think it's simply so that some of your archers shot each other in the backs, it has happend to me before, otherwise I guess it's a bug.
maybe they were javelin units?
Snowhobbit: Well I could buy the "friendly fire" reason, except for one thing: It doesn't explain why I saw arrows coming from the top of the hill, even AFTER my archers stopped firing their own.
Alrowan: No, there were no javelin units--not on their side, anyway; and my javlins didn't even get to fight at all until well after my archers had started dropping. I reloaded the battle today to double-check, and all Navarre had was the 100 spearmen and the 200 peasants.
[sigh] I guess it must have been a bug, then. Just chalk it up to being one of those things.....
Voigtkampf
12-07-2003, 08:47
Odd things happening here... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I have never seen anything like that, and I've been playing M:TW ever since it got out... Which doesn't mean I am an authority, there are people here who can disect the game down to the last letter, maybe they can tell more... I would tip it was a bug, after all...
Or do the machines rise, striking back at the human invader? AI becoming aware of it's existance? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif Playing the odds?
Brutal DLX
12-08-2003, 10:14
It can't be friendly fire alright.
But I can't imagine it being a bug either. You said you saw arrows and not javelins..are you sure? Because I still think one of those units could be a javelin unit.. Did you trace the origin of the arrows?
The only other arrows are produced by ballistae or castle defence towers, and those shouldn't be on the map, right?
Quote[/b] ]Or do the machines rise, striking back at the human invader? AI becoming aware of it's existance? Playing the odds?
Hehe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif That would be amusing, in its own way. Not to open any old wounds, but I remember when MOO3 was first being made, and the developers (very briefly, and mostly-joking) toyed with the idea of letting the AI occasionally "reload" turns, just like we players do. While it would have been very annoying for us humans, I have to admit there would defintely have been a certain amount of poetic justice in including such a feature--and amusing as well. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] ]You said you saw arrows and not javelins..are you sure? Because I still think one of those units could be a javelin unit.. Did you trace the origin of the arrows?
The only other arrows are produced by ballistae or castle defence towers, and those shouldn't be on the map, right?
Yes, I'm sure they weren't javelins. As I said in my earlier post, my javelineers and jinnettes didn't engage anyone at all until after my archers had already started taking fire. I had sent the javelins along with my jinnettes around on my right side to hit the enemy's left flank; by the time they got to within throwing range, however, the battle was already almost over, as my knights and spearmen had charged the hilltop and almost immediately broke Navarre's army. By that point, I'd already withdrawn my archers away from combat.
And no, Navarre didn't have any type of castle, so you're correct in that there were no castle defenses. And I did trace the arrows back to the "knob" of the hill where the enemy general's unit (peasants) was located. Also by this point in the battle, I'd begun to suspect friendly fire, and so had had my archers stop shooting for a minute or two; but there were still arrows coming down from where the general's unit was located.
I'm beginning to suspect that the Navarran commander's unit was actually a company of archers, but a bug caused to them to appear as a unit of peasants. It's worth noting that I never bothered to actually right click on his unit on the campaign map to actually see if his unit said archers or peasants. It's also worth noting that during the battle I never bothered to see place my cursor over his unit to see if they were actually identified as peasants or archers--the graphic showed them as peasants (you could tell they weren't carrying bows), so I had simply assumed that that's what they were.
There's also one final piece of evidence to support my hypothesis: The general's unit, in addition to being the one from which the arrows seemed to originate, were also the only unit to not charge down the hill towards my troops. They continued to stay at the top of the hill, and actually began retreating when my prince and spearmen charged toward them. I realize that's not definitive proof that they were archers, but it's consistent with their behavior in battle.
The little known Spanish stealth archers eh? - They fire their shortbows with their feet, whilst waving scythes up and down to distract the opposition - very cunning opponents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Brutal DLX
12-09-2003, 12:08
I see. Next time, check what unit they really were in battle and on the stratmap too. Could be a bug, could be some archers that look a lot like peasants, ie desert archers. Did they have 60 or more men?
Voigtkampf
12-09-2003, 21:58
Martok, (general Martok, I presume? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ),
you are opening some very nasty wounds there. Don't mention MOO3. I'm still not over it...
Derfal Cadarn
12-09-2003, 23:27
maybe the peasants realised they didnt have a chance and took to throwing rocks that they had picked up from the ground at your archers :-)
Ever seen the A.I do unit swaps. You know you have a bunch of cavalry in 1 territory to mow down the enemies archers in the next territory and low and behold when you order the attack the A.I reinforces it with a bunch of spearmen from another territory and takes those archers and puts them in another territory. You have been fooled by the A.I. , no need to worry though I won't tell anyone at any of the other boards about your demise. So the A.I. probaly saw what it had coming and threw some archers in there. now heres the trick. You had either a spy or watch tower that told you what you were going against but if you do not have any access to see the territory where the reinforcements are coming from you will not know what type of troops they are but you will get information on numbers. (heres an example. I've seen plenty of battles where it told me I was going against 1000 troops but could only clear see 300 of them on the prebattle screen and the other 700 were hidden reinforcments and had no idea wether they are cavalry or archers or what). So what happened to you is the A.I. sent in hidden reinforcements that you did not see on the prebattle screen and stayed hidden in the woods shooting arrows and possibly routed with the decimation or routing of the entire army and since they were hidden in the woods you may have never even seen them routing off the map. Did you save the replay that is the only way to know for sure
Quote[/b] ]Martok, (general Martok, I presume? ),
You are correct sir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif I'm a pretty big DS9 fan.
Quote[/b] ]you are opening some very nasty wounds there. Don't mention MOO3. I'm still not over it...
Sorry man. I didn't mean to bring back any painful memories Myself, I've managed to block them out for the most part.....
Oaty: I haven't noticed that phenomenon before, but I'll take your word for it; it's as good an explanation as any I know the pre-battle screen showed Navarre as having only the 1 spear and the 2 peasants, so "sneaking" them in as you described is about the only other way (other than a bug) they could've showed up like that. I'd still swear that the arrows had come from the general's peasant unit, but I can't be certain; it's now been several (very long) days since I played that battle, so my memories are admittedly getting a little fuzzy now.....
I had had the battle saved for a couple days, but I don't anymore. Like I said in my original post, I really wasn't upset over the phenomenon or anything (although I admit I was slightly miffed over losing my "perfect" victory http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ); I mainly was wondering what the explanation might have been. It was just one of those weird things that I hadn't seen before.
But no worries. I've gotten over the oddness and moved on. The Almohads no longer threaten the Catholic faithful in Spain (thanks to a couple of Crusades--my first Damn, they're fun ); I am now steadily pushing them east towards Egypt. If I'm feeling generous, I may allow the Caliphate to keep that one crappy province (Cyrencia?) to serve as a buffer zone between me and Cairo. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Voigtkampf
12-10-2003, 10:01
Quote[/b] (Martok @ Dec. 10 2003,01:08)]
Quote[/b] ]Martok, (general Martok, I presume? ),
You are correct sir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif I'm a pretty big DS9 fan.
So am I, my dear general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Qa'pla
Quote[/b] ]You are correct sir I'm a pretty big DS9 fan.
So am I, my dear general
Qa'pla
Hail, and well met, voigtkampf http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Demon of Light
12-11-2003, 09:50
I miss Gul Dukat.
Voigtkampf
12-11-2003, 11:43
Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ Dec. 11 2003,02:50)]I miss Gul Dukat.
Me too... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
He was great, I really loved him. But my all time favorite was Garak http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Brutal DLX
12-11-2003, 11:47
I'm sure he loved you guys too...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-11-2003, 14:36
Quote[/b] ]I'm sure he loved you guys too...
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
And the 1st Prize for Joke of the Month goes to... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Citaat[/b] (oaty @ Dec. 10 2003,00:15)]now heres the trick. You had either a spy or watch tower that told you what you were going against but if you do not have any access to see the territory where the reinforcements are coming from you will not know what type of troops they are but you will get information on numbers. (heres an example. I've seen plenty of battles where it told me I was going against 1000 troops but could only clear see 300 of them on the prebattle screen and the other 700 were hidden reinforcments and had no idea wether they are cavalry or archers or what). So what happened to you is the A.I. sent in hidden reinforcements that you did not see on the prebattle screen and stayed hidden in the woods shooting arrows and possibly routed with the decimation or routing of the entire army and since they were hidden in the woods you may have never even seen them routing off the map. Did you save the replay that is the only way to know for sure
Really? Never seen that before, but maybe you're confused with fighting two factions? And just haven't noticed the prebatshield of the other faction? You should see two shields in that instance.
Voigtkampf
12-11-2003, 19:39
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Dec. 11 2003,04:47)]I'm sure he loved you guys too...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Don't be so brutal DMX... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I'm sure you could use some good lovin' too... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Brutal DLX
12-12-2003, 10:52
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Dec. 11 2003,18:39)]
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Dec. 11 2003,04:47)]I'm sure he loved you guys too...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Don't be so brutal DMX... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I'm sure you could use some good lovin' too... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
You're right, but I prefer human females over Cardassians any day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Try checking the logfile for the battle. It should be able to indicate who had the kills.
Pellinor
12-12-2003, 16:23
Quote[/b] (Martok @ Dec. 09 2003,07:37)]...I remember when MOO3 was first being made...
Martok? As in MoO3 forums?
Gosh, what a small world
Nice to see you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Cheers,
Pell.R.
Voigtkampf
12-12-2003, 20:47
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Dec. 12 2003,03:52)]You're right, but I prefer human females over Cardassians any day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Brutal BMX, you amaze me yet again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Didn't think you could tell those two apart... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] ]Try checking the logfile for the battle. It should be able to indicate who had the kills.
I hate to admit my ignorance, but where do I find the logfile, and what do I look for to see who had the kills?
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Dec. 11 2003,04:43)]
He was great, I really loved him. But my all time favorite was Garak http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
I concur Martok was the only other character I enjoyed as much or more. He was definitely one of the more interesting (and developed) characters on that show.
Quote[/b] (Pellinor @ Dec. 12 2003,09:23)]
Quote[/b] (Martok @ Dec. 09 2003,07:37)]...I remember when MOO3 was first being made...
Martok? As in MoO3 forums?
Gosh, what a small world
Nice to see you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Cheers,
Pell.R.
PELL You old villian http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif It's good to see you too. How are things on your side of the ocean? I hope you haven't been on the Org forums this whole time, and I'm just now realizing this. If so, then I definitely gotta poke my head up and start paying more attention to things..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (Martok @ Dec. 12 2003,21:58)]
Quote[/b] ]Try checking the logfile for the battle. It should be able to indicate who had the kills.
I hate to admit my ignorance, but where do I find the logfile, and what do I look for to see who had the kills?
something like:
c:\program files\total war\medieval - total war\logfiles
Trousermonkey put out a fantastic log reader program a while back. i could send it to you if your interested, but i wont be home for 2 weeks. there is probably an alternative in the .org download area.
Quote[/b] (Obex @ Dec. 13 2003,01:48)]
Quote[/b] (Martok @ Dec. 12 2003,21:58)]
I hate to admit my ignorance, but where do I find the logfile, and what do I look for to see who had the kills?
something like:
c:\program files\total war\medieval - total war\logfiles
Trousermonkey put out a fantastic log reader program a while back. i could send it to you if your interested, but i wont be home for 2 weeks. there is probably an alternative in the .org download area.
Hey thanks. I'll see if I can find that.
Pellinor
12-13-2003, 12:23
Quote[/b] (Martok @ Dec. 13 2003,03:10)]I hope you haven't been on the Org forums this whole time, and I'm just now realizing this. If so, then I definitely gotta poke my head up and start paying more attention to things..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No, no, I just lurk mostly. I'm more active in the not-MoO3 forum.
I'm a little out of MTW at the moment: too busy playing Silent Storm. Then I've got Hordes of the Underdark for Christmas, KOTOR needs playing at some stage, Victoria... work, work work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Pell.R.
Quote[/b] (Pellinor @ Dec. 13 2003,05:23)]I'm a little out of MTW at the moment: too busy playing Silent Storm. Then I've got Hordes of the Underdark for Christmas, KOTOR needs playing at some stage, Victoria... work, work work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Pell.R.
I hear ya, Pell. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I've gotten back into Medieval the last few weeks or so, and I'm also starting to play BotF again as well. I had to quit Neverwinter Nights, unfortunately; I borrowed it from a friend, and now he's feeling the itch to play again. That's okay, though; I've put Neverwinter: Gold Edition as well as KOTOR on my Christmas list. I have a feeling I'm going to get both; now I just have to make myself wait another 11 days http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif
Brutal DLX
12-15-2003, 11:52
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Dec. 12 2003,19:47)]
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Dec. 12 2003,03:52)]You're right, but I prefer human females over Cardassians any day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Brutal BMX, you amaze me yet again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Didn't think you could tell those two apart... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Yes, I'm full of.... surprises. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Voigtkampf
12-15-2003, 20:11
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Dec. 15 2003,04:52)]Yes, I'm full of.... surprises. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
And I began worrying you got offended by that silly little joke, but than I said "NO, not freiherr Brutal PMS, he as one though german mutha...But than again, perhaps he is just hiding his soft inside behind a rough shell?"
Oh, boy...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Brutal DLX
12-16-2003, 11:00
Of course I am benevolent by nature and no secret blood lover, therefore I don't take offense to your word plays and references to my mother. They are like the buzz of flies to my ears, knave. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Now, back to the mead hall, the http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif is on you, of course.
Voigtkampf
12-16-2003, 14:26
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Dec. 16 2003,04:00)]Of course I am benevolent by nature and no secret blood lover, therefore I don't take offense to your word plays and references to my mother.
What the...?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Intercultural differences, my dear Brutal GPS, when I talked to my friends before, while I was younger and somewhat more, err..."ill-tempered" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif , we used this street slang. When we had words of respect for someone, we would say "He is one tough mother" or "Badass moma", with no continuance to it as in some popular American curses.
I guess I better pay attention to what I say next... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
I just remembered how I once said to a girl "baby, you are FAT" and she got right away in my face, trying to scratch my eyes out It took some while until, with some confirmative support from my friends, she realized I was paying her a compliment. Luckily, we were able to "thoroughly sort out" our misunderstandings afterwards
Unfortunately, this will not be possible or desirable in this situation, but I also hope no longer necesarry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Now I am a nice boy and I wouldn't hurt a fly anymore; Mr. Hyde is behind bars and gets no visitors, sir Alas, therfore I never say an unkind word to anyone
...oh,boy... *sigh*
Virtue or vice gained
voigtkampf was captured in a verbal slipoff, and constantly spurs fear in himself that he will be misunderstood. He choses his words carefully now. +3 to morale, -1 to acuman and -1 to cammand
Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-17-2003, 16:32
Quote[/b] ]Virtue or vice gained
voigtkampf was captured in a verbal slipoff, and constantly spurs fear in himself that he will be misunderstood. He choses his words carefully now. +3 to morale, -1 to acuman and -1 to cammand
+3 to humor http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Brutal DLX
12-18-2003, 10:31
and -1 to spelling. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
(if Soly sees this he'll close it in a heartbeat, so better spam now while you still can...)
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