Hide and charge

[Cruelsader]

Charging with a hidden unit gives -8 moral penalty to the target unit. However, as soon as a hidden unit moves it becomes visible.

1) What determines whether the moral penalty applies?; more specifically:

2) How long does the moral penalty last?
3) Is there a moral penalty, if the first command to the hidden unit is simple move (followed by a charge order a few seconds later)?

Thank you for your time and answers

[Hetman_Koronny]

*bows*

Good questions Cruelsader http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif, I'd love to learn the answers too

*bows*

[Cruelsader]

I have nothing new to report. I am just trying to make sure that the question won't be buried under tons of new posts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[dwarven_eagle]

I didn't even know that if you charged out of hiding that there moral was reduced
WOW I'll do that mr often

[ROCKHAMMER]

Good question. Hope somebody answers it. Will make the decision of hiding troops much easier as I like to use as much of the terrain as I can.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Good questions, Cruelsader
I'm guessing here, so don't cruxify me, OK?


Quote[/b] ]Charging with a hidden unit gives -8 moral penalty to the target unit. However, as soon as a hidden unit moves it becomes visible.
It will count as a hidden unit attack until you clash with the target. After that, it's always a visible unit attack.



Quote[/b] ]2) How long does the moral penalty last?
As I mentioned above, only until the charge hits the target.



Quote[/b] ]3) Is there a moral penalty, if the first command to the hidden unit is simple move (followed by a charge order a few seconds later)?
If you move your troops, they will become visible troops, therefore not able to charge with the hidden unit morale penalty.

[Oaty]

I hope RTW changes this aspect as very few ambushes seem to be a decisive factor of winning a battle but maybe I'm to use to Hollywood putting the image that a few hundred units charging out of the woods and smashing into a flank can greatly influence a battle. There should be something like a time limitation of a minute as soon as they become visible and any enemy units within a close proximity to that unit get a reduced morale until the time expires. But then again waiting till the enemy is engaged and then bringing them on the enemies flank may be enough because usually they cannnot reinforce it in time.

So are the ambushes I have in mind been too hollywoodized or have they been a big factor in battles

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]So are the ambushes I have in mind been too hollywoodized or have they been a big factor in battles?
Both claims are true.

Yes, Hollywood always GREATLY exagerates things.

Yes, in certain circunstances, ambushes were a deciding factor on a battle.
As an example, you just have to read a little bit about Historical Mongol ambush strategies. Kalka and Leignitz show us precisely that...

[Ludens]

Just think about it:

The point of an ambush is to fight an enemy when he is not prepared / ready to fight. So: attack something vulnerable, kill it, and run before they get prepared and send in the heavy guys (spearman, shock troops cavalry, depending on the ambushing force).
An alternative would be to engage just after or before the ambush to delay or even pin their heavy forces from threatning the ambush-force.

The Mongols were very effective with ambushes because of their mobility. If it didn't work out as planned they could be out of there in no time. Their mobility was an important factor of their succes: they could attack the enemy whenever they wanted, meaning whenever their enemy wasn't ready, and then could retreat to rest out of marching range of their enemies.
The only defence against this is be prepared at all times or have very good reconnaissance. The first is almost impossible: you cannot move your army in full formation, unless on open terrain, and the Mongols could be relied upon just to pop up on the flank or the back of your formation. For the second you needed fast horses (information transport was not very sophisticated back then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).
And which side had the best horses?

[PseRamesses]

I always hide some troops when defending and often, if the terrain allows, when attacking and I have never experinced a negative outcome on this strategy. Allthough the AI can be exploited I just try to play a battle as I would if it was the real thing - it gets more fun that way
Thaks for the stats on hidden units folks

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The Mongols were very effective with ambushes because of their mobility. If it didn't work out as planned they could be out of there in no time. Their mobility was an important factor of their succes: they could attack the enemy whenever they wanted, meaning whenever their enemy wasn't ready, and then could retreat to rest out of marching range of their enemies.
The only defence against this is be prepared at all times or have very good reconnaissance. The first is almost impossible: you cannot move your army in full formation, unless on open terrain, and the Mongols could be relied upon just to pop up on the flank or the back of your formation. For the second you needed fast horses (information transport was not very sophisticated back then ).
And which side had the best horses?

Precisely. Well explained.

But they didn't have only the most sturdy and resistant horses. They had an intricate system of horse-courier to keep all tumans(army corps) in contact with one another.
Something like the pony-express of the Old Wild West.

The speed at which their communications moved, allowed them to know the locations of the enemy troops as well as their own, enabling strategic and tactical preparations to be made or altered well before the battle. That's how they sometimes would crush the enemy by surprise, using efective coordinated attacks.

It's widelly regarded today, by military strategists, that the Mongol army invented the concept known today by the term C3I (Command, Control, Communications & Intelligence).

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 10 2003,18:59)]It's widelly regarded today, by military strategists, that the Mongol army invented the concept known today by the term C3I (Command, Control, Communications & Intelligence).
Ahh, those were the days... You could still invent something without any bugger saying very nice, but the Romans/ Greeks / Chinese / other did that before. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Very interesting, but I suppose they didn't call it C3I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . Some of this is also mentioned in the Way of the Daimyo, the PDF-file that comes with the Warlords Edition of Shogun.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Very interesting, but I suppose they didn't call it C3I. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Of course not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
It was just a smart concept they were familiar with...



Quote[/b] ]Some of this is also mentioned in the Way of the Daimyo, the PDF-file that comes with the Warlords Edition of Shogun.
I haven't read The Way of the Daimyo for quite some time now. But I don't recall that. I'll have to chek it out.
Thanks... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif