.dacian falxmen against spartan hoplites.

[Nowake]

Who would you bet your money on? Take into consideration all the aspects of mobility, military training, way of fighting. And make the effort of giving arguments http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Nowake, you are my hero. Finally a Gah option again
Multumesc

[Nowake]

My pleasure. Gah Romanian origin?

Anyway people, don't just vote, state an opinion.

[Leet Eriksson]

Well i suppose the hoplites would win,unless the dacian falxmen managed to magically manuever around the sarissa wall and kill them with their falx.

[Nowake]

But this is my point. Think that the falxmen can form small warbands and attack from different directions. Plus, the "charge" would be more than powerfull. They would simply be to fast for their counterparts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif This, in reality.

Now, in Rome, I suppose that this is going to be somewhat harder, still, it will be very easy for the falxmen to flank or generally outmaneuvre hoplites and then attack when the time is right.

Of course, only a fast unit and with a very high attack rating can do this, in order to be able to inflict big casualties in a short period of time, because having a prolonged melee with the spartans is not to be desired http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif The dacian falxmen are perfect for the task of chopping a phanlax, no matter how well it is trained.

[Brutal DLX]

Gah says it all, really. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

BTW, Romanian girlfriend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Michael the Great]

GAH
Nowake,esti roman cumva? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Nowake]

Brutal DLX san
Aren't romanian women the most pleasing women? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Gah

Michael the Great san
Indeed, I am romanian. Salve.

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Dec. 11 2003,07:38)]Brutal DLX san
Aren't romanian women the most pleasing women? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Gah
For the time being, I have to say they are. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

More neutrally speaking, I still have to admit they are right among the top http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[DemonArchangel]

Hey, why is Romanian so similar to latin, that i can recognize what you're saying?

[Nowake]

Because romanians are the followers of the daco-roman population and they speak the closest language to latin nowadays. Even closer than modern italian.

Hint: Romania

Gah

[Michael the Great]

Oh yes,indeed I have missed ur signature,you are pr Fire as I can now see...
Hey any1 around here ever visited Romania??

[Michael the Great]

Oh and,nowake,I also see that you had a LOT of time to post on these forums,altough you've registered later than me hehe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Michael the Great @ Dec. 13 2003,17:09)]Oh yes,indeed I have missed ur signature,you are pr Fire as I can now see...
Hey any1 around here ever visited Romania??
Yes, I've visited a couple of times. Bucharest, Braila, Suceava, and of course Black Sea. Next target will probably be predeal.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Dec. 15 2003,14:37)]
Quote[/b] (Michael the Great @ Dec. 13 2003,17:09)]Oh yes,indeed I have missed ur signature,you are pr Fire as I can now see...
Hey any1 around here ever visited Romania??
Yes, I've visited a couple of times. Bucharest, Braila, Suceava, and of course Black Sea. Next target will probably be predeal.
Predeal .. a good choice. Be sure not to miss Brasov, Cluj, Timisoara, and drop by Pitesti also, this is where I live.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Michael the Great @ Dec. 13 2003,19:12)]Oh and,nowake,I also see that you had a LOT of time to post on these forums,altough you've registered later than me hehe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
I'm not sure that I understand, is this in any way uncomforting for you? I was here after STW was released too, but that account was lost - particulary because of my neglijence. My contribution to this forum, as well as to the .com - where my postcount is much higher - and legiontotalwar or FBZ is, or at least I like to think so, appreciated.

[Michael the Great]

Gah
Uncomforting me? Definetly not
C'mon m8,would I say that to a fellow romanian? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Oh and Brutal DLX,you should come by Bucharest some time,altough it can get a little crowded http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Michael the Great @ Dec. 16 2003,17:42)]Gah
Uncomforting me? Definetly not
C'mon m8,would I say that to a fellow romanian? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Oh and Brutal DLX,you should come by Bucharest some time,altough it can get a little crowded http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I know. I've been there a couple of times, but only on the transit. The only place I know real well there is the Mall. lol

[Nowake]

You should see the House of the People - it is the second building from the world after the Pentagon in terms of size.

Anyway, Bucharest was destroyed by the communist architecture - he was nicknamed before the '40 the "small Paris" - so you should try other lecations in order to make an ideea about Romania.


But people, I still say that my falxmen are the best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[kataphraktoi]

WHat if the Spartan Hoppies break formation and fight one and one with the Falxmen?

Methinks Falx gets stuck in Hoppie shield and Spartan cuts down Dacian with only leather cap for protection and perhaps skin armour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Can anyone elaborate about Vlad Dracul's old man, i read somwhere he was a Byzantine officer before he became a Voivode.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Nowake]

Let me clarify for you.

Vlad Dracul is Vlad the Impaler's father.

And all the romanian voievodes were Despots, a byzantine title which put them under byzantine sovereignty - the Despots were the ones apointed with the government of a province. BUT, their titles comprised the one of Autocrat also, by this specifying in fact that they accept the byzantine heritage, but also that they understand to hold onto their independence.

[Michael the Great]

People,get serious
Dacians r never gonna beat Spartans,as neither did they beat Romans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Dec. 17 2003,10:32)]they accept the byzantine heritage, but also that they understand to hold onto their independence.
Yeah,untill 1453...

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Dec. 10 2003,07:20)]But this is my point. Think that the falxmen can form small warbands and attack from different directions. Plus, the "charge" would be more than powerfull. They would simply be to fast for their counterparts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif This, in reality.

Now, in Rome, I suppose that this is going to be somewhat harder, still, it will be very easy for the falxmen to flank or generally outmaneuvre hoplites and then attack when the time is right.

Of course, only a fast unit and with a very high attack rating can do this, in order to be able to inflict big casualties in a short period of time, because having a prolonged melee with the spartans is not to be desired http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif The dacian falxmen are perfect for the task of chopping a phanlax, no matter how well it is trained.
Hag ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)

In my belief, a Spartan phalanx is quite clearly impenetrable... it was a square, with sarissa's sticking out from all sides. Very immobile, but very easily defendable. And the younger of the hoplites burst out of that formation to provide some aggression as well.

So, IMHO, our little falxmen cannot penetrate a Spartan phalanx.

Now... go chop off heads of some other stinky barbarian clan... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Dacians beat the Spartans.

Recall that the Dacians forced the Romans to change their armor to coap with the Falx. Too many body parts getting lopped off with that chain mail.

The Inflexible Spartans (spear armed and bronze wearing) would have had a harder time than the Flexible Romans.

Dacian weaponry and flexibility (tactically and terrain-wise) would have given the Spartans too much to deal with.

//BW

[DemonArchangel]

McKenna, the thing is that the Romans were using the Lorika Segmentata before the Dacian wars.

[Nowake]

So I think this was after AD 14 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif



The fact that the spartans were inflexible shows their vulnerability. Imagine just one dacian armed with a falx managing to get between their spears.

How many would he be able to chop before they would pull their swords?

And remember that after that the other falxmen can pour in through the gap because the spears don't form a wall anymore ..

[The Wizard]

Yes, but that is dependant of the number of Spartans in the formation. The larger the number, the more impenetrable the phalanx (more rows, more oversized toothpicks, etc.).

Do mind that the falx was a polearm and wasn't so quick to wield. Not halberd-'quick', but not gladius-quick by a long shot either.

[Nowake]

It was as quick as a katana, and that is enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[DemonArchangel]

the falx= katana speed? you're f**king kidding me pr fire

[Nowake]

The falces - the real falces, not the slightly modified ones CA gave us - have a long handle, a bit longer maybe than it should be for a two-handed sword. It's a no-dachi with a shorter blade and bigger handle. Believe me, a strong warrior would be very quick at chopping with it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[BlackWatch McKenna]

DemonArchangel:

Hmmmm - I thought it was the western armies that used it regularly and the Eastern armies that got stuck with the chain mail.

And that it was the Dacians that prompted the eastern legios to say, "send us that good Lorica Segment stuff"

I will follow up on that, though

//////////////////

I think Dacian weapons would have a normal/hard time hacking through the Spartan Shields; but if they connected with that bronze armor - they would have caved it right in (still - shields soak up most hits).

If the Spartans could keep the Dacians in open terrain, then the Dacians would need to work a flank. Otherwise It would be a meat grinder.

//BW

[Parmenio]

All things being equal, I'm guessing that unless the flaxmen break the phalanx on the intial charge, they'll get stream-rollered, and Spartans rarely break.

[Nowake]

How? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif I guess they'll just overrun them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Parmenio]

Basically, the falxman has to beat multiple spear points to get close enough to the phlanx to start fighting. His chances aren't good. This isn't to say the spartans are going to be inflicting huge casulties, it's just that they can slowly grind forward relentlessly.

[Nowake]

First, the flaxmen don't need to be the ones charging, they can just outmaneuvre them. You people seem to forget the vulnerable flanks of the phanlax.

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Jan. 26 2004,06:22)]First, the flaxmen don't need to be the ones charging, they can just outmaneuvre them. You people seem to forget the vulnerable flanks of the phanlax.
not willing to sound like a smartass but... where and when did someone break a hoplite phalanx with a sideways manouvre? There is only one single historical example with an "all things being equal" scenario where the hoplite phalanx of the Spartans was outmanouvred by a non-hoplite phalanx enemy - Sfaktiria. And we are talking about highly mobile, professional, heavy on missiles (javelins) Peltasts that did the job. And it wasn't even a major battle, just a skirmish (about 600 Spartans involved in it, against a thousand or so Athenian mercenaries). Name one other instance where the Spartan phalanx was outmanouvred? Not beaten head on (like in Lefktra, for instance) but flanked.

Hoplite phalanx was much, much more complicated, flexible and manouvrable than people believe nowadays.

[Nowake]

It's not necesarily about spartans, but about the phanlax sistem as a whole. Remember Phyrrus for a fact.

The phanlax works only in cooperation with mobile units, which cover the flanks or fill the gaps. And this is not the case. We're talking about a unit of spartan hoplites, alone, who trys to defeat a warband of dacian falxmen. It's easy to see that the falxmen can split much more easily, attack from multiple directions and thus break the spartan formation. And the bronze armour of a spartan won't hold at a falx blow, I can asure you, nor will a spartan be as mobile as a dacian, because of its training (which teaches him to rely on its companions and neglect individual fighting - not that they would have been poor fighters, but their menthality was different) and armour.

[Rosacrux]

Nowake, this is about hoplites, not pike-bearers (like Pyrhus' army was - mind you Pyrhus was never actually beaten by the Romans).

Name one single historical account where a decent hoplite phalanx (rarely supported by substantial light troops, anyway) was broken by anything or anyone, save a highly mobile missile infantry. And we are not talking about just a "decent hoplite phalanx", but about the best warriors the ancient world ever saw, the Spartans.

You won't find any historical examples, because there are none. Only arrows (like in the battles of the Ionian Greeks against Persian forces) or other type of missiles (like in the example of Sfakteria) could break a phalanx formation. Breaking, putting into dissaray, not flanking. Flanking was rarely if ever an option - practically, allthough in theory it was supposed to be feasible, if not easy.