Weird morale?

[reconspy]

Hey all,

After reading this thread, particularly concerning the valour bug first mentioned by Kristaps:

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....t=13147 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=13147)

I decided to do some checking myself. Now, I've done this three times (restarting everytime) and was wondering if anyone else can reproduce it.

I have MTW and VI all patched. The campaign is English, Hard, Late, GA. The subject involves the troops in Aquitaine. There should be 2 longbowmen and 1 chivalric men at arms.

Now, if you attack Toulouse with only your longbowmen, this happens:

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/withoutmortimer.jpg

Presumably, the longbowmen start with a +3 Defence/Armour upgrade. However, note the Morale equals 6.

However, if you drag Sir Mortimer along, with his 4 command stars and all, this happens:

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/withmortimer.jpg

See anything profound? Now, I'm led to believe (after viewing these forums) that 4 command stars is suppose to give +2 valour (+2 to Attack and Defense). Now obviously, that is not the case, but this isn't my point.

What happened to the longbowmen's morale? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Sir Mortimer is hiding a nasty secret, sure. But really, who doesn't love a blood lover? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/mortimer.jpg

Now granted, I am a total newbie, having only recently restarted playing, and I've probably missed something important, but if anyone can answer, that would be most appreciated.

As an end note, continued experiments with the same troops, and using titles to augment the command rating resulted in:

2 stars = 1 valour
4 stars = 1 valour
6 stars = 2 valour

Don't know about higher up ratings, yet.

Now, back to wailing on the French.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Welcome to the ORG, reconspy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Quote[/b] ]Now granted, I am a total newbie, having only recently restarted playing, and I've probably missed something important, but if anyone can answer, that would be most appreciated.
You've already answered your question...
Secret Blood Lover is a Vice awarded just after your general has, at least 4 times, slaughtered without need the enemy. I'll elaborate.

Vice & Virtues:

First time: Scant Mercy +1 to Dread
Second Time: No Mercy +2 to Dread -1 to Morale
Third Time: Merciless +2 to Dread -2 to Morale
Fourth Time: Secret Blood Lover +3 to Dread

But since you already had -2 to Morale from the previous Vice (Merciless), you get the picture... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So as you can see, your general bosts Valour, Attack and Defense but gives a penalty in Morale.

Hope I could have shed some light on any shadow of doubt... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[reconspy]

Ah ok, that's good then. I just thought those longbowmen didn't like the guy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Thanks for your reply.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Anytime... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Cruelsader]

1) Do I understand correctly that this particular vice stacks? Why the moral penalty isn't -3 and dread +8 then? Or is it only the highest penalty/bonus that applies?

2) Do all vices that have several gradations stack?

3) Why does 6 star general give only 2 valour? (BTW, I cheked it and my 6 star gen gives +3 valour as expected. I am using VI MTW ptached version as well)

[Cruelsader]

An addition (sry, I do not know how to edit a posted message):

My 6 star general seems to give +3 valour. However, attack and defence of units went up only by 2. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'll try and answer the best I can:

The Vices and Virtues are not cumulative, they just replace and update one another.
Meaning, that in each vice or virtue you always get the to update the Vice (if there is a change) or keep the former value (if there isn't a change).

I'll elaborate:

Vice & Virtues:

First time: Scant Mercy +1 to Dread
Second Time: No Mercy +2 to Dread -1 to Morale
Third Time: Merciless +2 to Dread -2 to Morale
Fourth Time: Secret Blood Lover +3 to Dread

So in overall statistic:

First Slaughter: +1 to Dread, 0 to Morale
Second Slaughter: +2 to Dread (update) -1 to Morale (update)
Third Slaughter: +2 to Dread (no update) -2 to Morale (update)
Fourth Slaughter: +3 to Dread (update) -2 to Morale (no update)

It's just a replacement value, it just keeps changing from the previous one.

At least it's the most logical to me, from what I've experienced and tested... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif



Quote[/b] ]My 6 star general seems to give +3 valour. However, attack and defence of units went up only by 2.
Precisely the same happened to reconspy.
His 4-star general gives +2 to Valour, +1 to Attack, +1 to Defense and because of the vice -2 to Morale.
Your general has a similar proportion: 6-star general gives +3 to Valour, +2 to Attack, +2 to Defense and has he probably is vice-free 0 to Morale.

[Cruelsader]

Thank you Aymar for quick and clear explanation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

However, isn't each point of valour from generals supposed to give +1 att, +1 def? If so, why does +3 valour give only +2 att, +2 def? If six star general gives only 2 valour, why does the game show that it gives three? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

No need for thanks... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


I don't believe that Attack & Defense bonuses are related to Valour bonuses. For sure the Valour bonuses are half of the rank of the general.
If I recall correctelly, it goes like this:

0-Star general: +0 to Valour, +0 to Attack, +0 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 0)*
1-Star general: +0 to Valour, +0 to Attack, +0 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 1)*
2-Star general: +1 to Valour, +0 to Attack, +0 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 2)*
3-Star general: +1 to Valour, +1 to Attack, +1 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 4)*
4-Star general: +2 to Valour, +1 to Attack, +1 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 8)*
5-Star general: +2 to Valour, +2 to Attack, +2 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 16)*
6-Star general: +3 to Valour, +2 to Attack, +2 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 32)*
7-Star general: +3 to Valour, +3 to Attack, +3 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 64)*
8-Star general: +4 to Valour, +3 to Attack, +3 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 128)*
9-Star general: +4 to Valour, +4 to Attack, +4 to Defense; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 256)*

* - (without titles)

The Vice & Virtues are for Morale only.

This bonuses system has remnants of Shogun.

I haven't analyzed this in detail, so if your curiosity is not satisfied, you'll have to seek a specialist... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[pdoan8]

This is from the Beginner's Guide


Quote[/b] ]What is valour?
Valour is a measure of how experienced a unit is. Each point of valour is earned in battle by killing non-routing enemies. It adds +1 attack +1 defence +2 morale, you can probably see from this why veterans with high valour are to be feared. Valour can also be gained from the general, for every second star he receives the men in his army get a point of special valour which adds +1 attack +1 defence.

Every command star will give +1 Att or +1 Def alternatively (IIRC, Def bonus is given first), so every 2 command stars will result in +1 Att and +1 Def which is displayed as +1 valour (but without the morale bonus).

So, the bonus from command star should be:

0-Star general: +0 to Attack, +0 to Defense, Displayed as +0 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 0)*
1-Star general: +0 to Attack, +1 to Defense, Displayed as +0 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 1)*
2-Star general: +1 to Attack, +1 to Defense, Displayed as +1 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 2)*
3-Star general: +1 to Attack, +2 to Defense, Displayed as +1 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 4)*
4-Star general: +2 to Attack, +2 to Defense, Displayed as +2 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 8)*
5-Star general: +2 to Attack, +3 to Defense, Displayed as +2 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 16)*
6-Star general: +3 to Attack, +3 to Defense, Displayed as +3 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 32)*
7-Star general: +3 to Attack, +4 to Defense, Displayed as +3 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 64)*
8-Star general: +4 to Attack, +4 to Defense, Displayed as +4 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 128)*
9-Star general: +4 to Attack, +5 to Defense, Displayed as +4 to Valour; (Battles Won - Battles Lost = 256)*

Again, this system is largely from STW. In MTW, there are some inconsistency about the system where the bonus doesn't add up correctly.

[Brutal DLX]

Hm, that's the problem reconspy showed in his example. The morale hit is explained by the vice, but his v2 longbows don't get the appropriate attack and defence bonus, but only half of it.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thanks, pdoan8 and Brutal DLX http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I just hadn't the time to seek those stats. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But do you think the guide is right?
Or the stats were really altered and we don't know it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif