Knights... Who needs them?

[Somebody Else]

My personal view is that cavalry is to be used for harrassment purposes - therefore the [I]slow[I], [I]heavy[I] and [B][I]expensive[I][B] knights are useless to me. I find that light cavalry is much more effective - Mounted Sergeants being the heavy enough for my purposes. Royal Knights are handy for keeping my generals alive. If I want a heavy hitter, I'll stick to halberdiers. For a start, they don't charge off and get themselves killed at every oppurtunity.
Plus I find spearmen to be pretty useless as well. Not as multi-purpose as halberdiers... or indeed billmen.

Perhaps I just don't know how to use knights or spearmen... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Perhaps that is so. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[econ21]

I confess I tend to be disappointed with my knights - they seem to die too easily and achieve too little. But on the otherhand, I find them to be the AIs most dangerous units (with the possible exception of VG). The AI seems to use them quite well - often screening their advance by swords to neutralise my spears and crashing into any exposed unit flanks. What appears to be a solid defence can crumble in a minute if the AI has knights and a general with a decent command. You can see some embarassing examples complete with pictures in my last posts on the Almohad kaliphate thread in the PBM forum.

[Demon of Light]

Knights are more mobile than halberds and supply enough punch to quickly stop a line from breaking. Also, a good many princes come with valor bonuses so they can be pretty handy with a high star general.

Dr. Appleton: You still conquered the world, right?

[Hetman_Koronny]

*bows*

I couldn't imagine my battles without Knights. I especially like to use the heavy cavalary and I can again say that I consider Royal Knights to be one of the very best units in the game. A unit of RK with valor 9, morale (e.g) 23, with decent armour and/or weapon upgrade can hardly be matched. And it is not that hard to train such unit.

Knights' high morale and charge values (plus armor, mobility, excellent attact and defense, etc.) cannot be underestimated. They are perfectly reliable and this is what I would expect from my troops in the first place.

*bows*

[Balamir]

Knight's morale, charge and mobility are their most important features. You cant expect them to fight against billmen since billmen are very good anti cavs. Same goes for halberds. The mounted sergeant needs v3w1 or v2w3 to be equal with a v1 chiv knight but the knights will still have higher morale, which makes them a winner on a pav harrassment attack. Also knights should be used to counter other cav and flank. Once you are in the back, the high charging value will make the enemy rout instantly. On a cav screen, because of the high armour of knights, it is hard for them to die by a lucky shot which falls back. THese are mainly why I use knights, and I count myself very dependent on them

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps that is so. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
And the Award to the Best Joke of The Week goes to... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[frogbeastegg]

2.9 Knights.

http://www.totalwar.org/strategy/frog/royalknights.jpg

Knights are the elite of the heavy cavalry. Very few units from the other cavalry classes can match the raw power of a knight and his charger. Knights are built to do one thing and one thing only – charge. Knights have the most damaging charge possible in the game and only spear and pike units can withstand it. Any other unit types are very likely to be swept away with many casualties and a damaged formation. To take best advantage of this charge you should try to flank and hit the enemy in the rear, this not only causes more damage but it makes it more likely that the enemy will rout. Knights are wasted in a melee so you should aim to charge and rout the enemy within a few seconds of combat. If the enemy do not break pull your knights back by either double clicking on the location you want them to go to or hitting control+W to make them withdraw. If you make them withdraw you must remember to order them to halt before they get too far away or they will leave the battlefield. As for which method is more use it depends on the situation. Sometimes your knights will ignore your move order and refuse to leave the fight; in this case ordering a withdrawal is more reliable. However in the middle of a heavy fight ordering your knights to withdraw can place them in worse danger. You should learn both methods and discover when to use each one. When your knights are a reasonable distance from the fight order them to charge back in. Keep doing this until the enemy break. Generally speaking knights possess average speed for cavalry – they are not fast but they are not slow either. This aids their flanking abilities.

If a unit is wavering when the knight’s charge hits it then it will most likely break and run. This means that knights can be used as a shock force to speed the end of melee fights, freeing your units to double team the enemy and gain a local advantage in numbers. You should pick your targets carefully in a situation like this as knights tire quickly; they only have a few charges in them before they become exhausted. Therefore target the most important units to the situation and work from there.

Knights are not the invincible warriors popular legend and Hollywood might portray them as. Spear and pike units will halt their charge and inflict serious casualties unless the knights hit them in the flank or rear. Charging head on into a forest of sharp points is suicide – don’t do it. Polearm units will also cut knights up as they get both anti-cavalry and anti-armour bonuses. Never allow your knights to engage polearms, even if you hit them from the rear they may not rout. If the polearms stand and fight they will win or cause very heavy damage as they die.

Knights are well equipped to take out swordsmen and missile units so focus on these unit types for maximum efficiency. You should bare in mind that armour piercing missile units like crossbows and arbalesters will inflict many losses on any unit of knights trying to charge them through a barrage of missiles, therefore always attack from the flanks or rear. However you can always attract the attention of the missile unit with a junk unit and charge your knights in while the other unit absorbs the missiles. Plain spearmen are good for this as they are cheap, unimportant and they have shields to protect them a little.

All knights are elite and impetuous so bear this in mind when you use them. Also because of their heavy armour any knight will quickly cook in the heat of the desert so try to keep them in cooler climates. Knights should NEVER, ever fight in trees. Cavalry receive significant penalties when fighting in trees and knights are far too expensive to waste in this way. Once again – keep them away from trees at all costs

Knights will not only charge without orders due to their impetuous nature, they will also choose their own targets and ignore your orders. They seek glory and honour in battle and there is no glory in running down peasants. You must keep a close eye on your knights so you can stop them quickly if they charge without orders; unfortunately knights have a habit of picking unsuitable targets so if you don’t watch them they can ride into disaster. The crusader knights are much more controlled than their normal counterparts so take advantage of this.

Knights are best at: Charging, flanking and charging, routing wavering units by charging, and just generally charging

M16http://www.totalwar.org/strategy/frog/charge.jpg
Image M16: A unit of knights at the moment the charge begins. Since their target is a unit of vulnerable swordsmen they can risk a head on charge. While this looks glamorous this is not really the best way to use your knights.

M17http://www.totalwar.org/strategy/frog/chargebetter.jpg
Image M17: This picture demonstrates a much better use of the knights charge. The infantry line has buckled under enemy pressure and soon the line will rout. However a single unit of knights have been sent around to charge the enemy in the rear, because the knights are deployed in a long, two rank formation they managed to hit two units of enemy spearmen from an advantageous position. The enemy unit on the left routed instantly and the unit on the right followed shortly after. The knights killed 47, captured 12 and lost 3 men. The careful use of the knight’s charge won the battle.

M18http://www.totalwar.org/strategy/frog/minicavcharge.jpg
Image M18: A small demonstration of just how dangerous the knights charge can be. There are only 8 tired and battered French knights in the unit shown here. The Almohad urban militia is fresh and easily beating the tired Order foot in combat and their morale is high. A few seconds after this picture the first unit of Almohad urban militia had routed and the second was wavering – why? Simple the knights’ charge did a lot of damage to the militia and that combined with the morale penalty for being attacked from behind and outnumbered locally caused them to rout. This upset the second unit of militia and boosted the morale of the Order foot. 8 knights, just 8, turned the tide of this skirmish in a couple of seconds.




If you want to read the rest of this section you'll have to wait for the unit guide tomorrow Thought since this bit is finished and likely to be of a little use I may as well post it. Of course that is by no means the perfect explanation of knightly tactics and some will disagree but that is what makes MTW interesting.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

AWESOME POST, frogbeastegg http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Great work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Ironside]

And a downhill frontal wedge charge by knights on the enemy general unit often kills the enemy general immidiatly.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

And knights are also exellent last stand units if you desperatly need to hold a line in a close battle.

The improvements over a mounted sergeant is two.
1. Knights works better on charges thanks to better offensive values.
2. Knights can stand prolonged fights aginst any unit outside the forest, exept polearms and spearmen head on. AP weapons is gonna cause them quite more losses though.

On a final note, knights got the power and the mobility, can it be better? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Edit: Knights are exactly as fast as mounted sergs

[Shamus]

I agree with the positive sentiments towards knights. I almost never use them in a head on situation, but rather, use their speed to flank the enemy. It’s been stated here several times, that the ability to flank with great speed and power is the knight’s greatest attribute. One of favorite defensive formations involves a line of several spear units across the front, with bow units firing on the enemy from behind the line. When the enemy commits to a charge against my spear units, I flank from the sides with sword foot units, and from the back with knights. Any remaining foot units are used to protect the backs of the knights. I then have a few light cavalry (or cavalry archers - I love Byzantine cavalry for this) ready to chase down routing units.

I honestly couldn’t imagine my army not having a few knight units.

[the_holy_knight]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Knights are the elite of armies and I love charging them in on thew flank you can do this just after a volley of gunsand then the units rout almost every time and knights templay stand up against all non-polearm infantry and beat them when in full numbers and they are great for taking out generals

[ROCKHAMMER]

A game called Medieval Total War would not be complete w/o knights.They are the first thing that pops into your head when you hear the word Medieval.They can also be VERY effective if used properly and at the right time.Cavalry should be held in reserve to be used to decide the battle when it may be in question or be used to kill off the remaining troops when the run like kicked dogs.The only real drawback to the Knightly troops is there impetuosity, which can be VERY annoying at times... Just my thoughts on this topic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (Somebody Else @ Dec. 11 2003,00:10)]My personal view is that cavalry is to be used for harrassment purposes - therefore the [I]slow[I], [I]heavy[I] and [B][I]expensive[I][B] knights are useless to me. I find that light cavalry is much more effective - Mounted Sergeants being the heavy enough for my purposes. Royal Knights are handy for keeping my generals alive. If I want a heavy hitter, I'll stick to halberdiers. For a start, they don't charge off and get themselves killed at every oppurtunity.
Plus I find spearmen to be pretty useless as well. Not as multi-purpose as halberdiers... or indeed billmen.

Perhaps I just don't know how to use knights or spearmen... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
Everyone has their own style of play, and it is possible to do quite well against the AI with only a few knights.

When I think about those times that the AI gave me a hard time, it was almost always with high valor heavy cav.

. . . and there is a reason that almost every Christian army used in MP has some Knights, and frogbeastegg described it quite well. The good MP fighters know how to get a unit of heavy cav around the flank - the key to victory.

Vanilla Spearmen aren't easy to use, especially at low valor.
In MTW VI (patch 2.01) they have a -1 attack bonus, a -1 defence bonus, and they start at morale 0. Since a melee unit needs to be at least morale 6, (IMHO should be morale 8), they need to be V4 before they can be expected to fight and hold against quality troops.

That said, you can do ok with spearmen if you do not allow them to be flanked, and you keep the Gen near, and fight downhill, and don't let em get outnumbered.

ichi

[Papewaio]

I use a small amount of knights.

Typically only one or two units as a royal guard. They form on either side of the Prince/King and stop a potential flank while I am concentrating on another part of my army.

Or I use them to flank the enemy as a second wave... or to shore up holes in my line if enemy cavalry make it through.

[desdichado]

I usually dismount them. A slow unstoppable tide is how I like to play and dismounted CK are one of the best for this imo.

[jadast]

I love knights. The one unit I don't worry about at half strength. 10 royal knights crashing into the back of an engaged enemy unit can have a devastating effect. I would have lost more than a few battles if my knights had not saved the day.

[mbrasher1]

Yeah, knights are great defensive units to shore up a sagging line, rushing to problem areas on a battlefield.

And as FBE notes, they can have a powerful offensive punch when properly employed.

But . . .

1. They are too slow and tire too easily to chase down routing defenders.

2. They are quite expensive for what you get.

I find that the RKs that you get with heirs fill the bill quite nicely. When the game is competitive, you can usually have 1-2 of these guys ready for action.

I think that my favorite cavalry units are jinetes and hobilars. They are cheap, fast and if they die, you do not lose an heir. Plus, jinnies can harass slower armoured units and run down the archer units which stray too far forward.

I know that knights have that studliness factor -- my Spanish lancers run around the field smashing unit after unit and it is fun to watch. But if you are balancing your army against other competitive armies, they'd be relaced by 2 chivalric maa and a chivalric sergeant AND a jinete in my lineup.

[TheSilverKnight]

I haven't played MTW in several days, because I have NTW installed on my PC. When I get MTW reinstalled (in about a month or two), I will check out the stuff with Knights again. I forgot about the middle ages, been too busy conquering Europe as the Little Corsican http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Somebody Else]

I have decided on a use for cavalry - fending off those confounded horse archers. And all manner of infantry archers. What's wrong with fighting properly - toe to toe?
Now I just have to find some really fast cavalry... not knights then...
So what's a good light cavalry unit then... steppe cavalry seem to be good, or hobilars... Of course, I'd be happy if knights were fast enough, and not so expensive - too much of an investment in one unit.

[Volucer]

I use Mounted Seargents until my trade network is setup. After I'm bringing in 10k+ a year, I start producing Knights like crazy and sending them off to war asap to gain valour.

Merging understrength high-valour units only with other understrength high-valour units. That plus their morale makes them very good. (Chiv Knights that is) I normally only use a few Fuedal Knights and those just until the High Period. Plus Chivalric Knights trained in Toulouse get a valour bonus. From Toulouse I send them to Aragon to get weapon and armor upgrades. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Someone mentioned this, but Knights make an awesome last stand unit because of their high morale.

Sometimes I use a couple of green knights to hold up an enemy line until my infantry and archers advance within range. This weeds out the crappy guys and leaves the unit undermanned but with higher valour which I can use as replacements for other high-valour knight units.

(I normally have an army stack of just undermanned high-valour units one province behind my main army)

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (Somebody Else @ Dec. 11 2003,23:06)]I have decided on a use for cavalry - fending off those confounded horse archers. And all manner of infantry archers. What's wrong with fighting properly - toe to toe?
Now I just have to find some really fast cavalry... not knights then...
So what's a good light cavalry unit then... steppe cavalry seem to be good, or hobilars... Of course, I'd be happy if knights were fast enough, and not so expensive - too much of an investment in one unit.

I think that Szekely is the best light cav in the game. They are fast, have a good morale and decent HTH abilities. On the top if it they are cav acrhers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Other then Szekely I would suggest Alan mercenaries (fast, good morale, high charge), Hobilars (fast, cheap), and Jinettes (fast + javelins).
Steppe cavs are fast and cheap but have a rather poor morale (quite similar to Hobilars).
Mounted sergs are OK, but they are slower than Szekelys or Hobilars.

[Guthwyn]

Frogbeastegg-great post.

In addition to their power in combat, I've noticed that in SP, the computer is less likely to test one of my border armies if it contains a few units of knights. That's a primary reason why I race to build feudal knights, rather than sticking with M. Sgts (intimidation factor, I guess).

Guthwyn

[Zaphod Bebblebrox]

Excellent post Frogbeastegg

I love knights they da men, as has been said a downhill wedge at full charge is a great sight (not for the enemy tho http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The_Emperor]

Yet again Froggy hits the nail on the head.

Knights are your ultimate shock arm, always remember that they are Cavalry and are not like infantry, they are not good getting bogged down with infantry-style combat (despite the fact that Knights can hold their own in combat with most units).

Mounted Knights are designed to use their mobility to move around your enemy and hit them where they least expect it with a heavy charge at the flank or rear... Often such a charge will send your enemies running in fear

The other advantage of Knights is that many units can be dismounted before battle, and at a pinch you will have some extra Heavy infantry

All in all a very versatile unit.