Crusades rule!!!!

[Martok]

I know many of you may mock me for this, but although I've had Medieval for a year now, I have just recently launched a Crusade for the first time (which was quickly followed by a second one since the first was so successful). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif My roommate (whom I converted into a Total War addict about 6 months ago) has now begun launching Crusades as well (as the English). What fun While they were among the most prominent events of Medieval history, I confess neither of us had really seen the point in launching one from a gameplay standpoint--until now.

I've been playing as Spain; and in the very early part of the game, I had become concerned with the armies the Almos had stationed in Cordoba and Portugal (the latter of which they had recently conquered). In particular, they were amassing large amounts of AUM, which I was not eager to face (as many MTW players understand all too well )--particularly since militia seargents and Jinnettes were about the only halfway decent units I could build at the time.

Now as it happens, I was (coincidentally enough) also reading a book about the Crusades at the same time, and it piqued my interest enough to try launching one. I gathered some men together, pointed it towards Portugal, and waited to see what would happen. Well, suffice it to say, my Crusade was quite successful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Aside from the new units created, it was neat (slightly annoying maybe, but still cool) to watch some of my men defect from the army as the Crusade passed from Castille through Leon; I really enjoyed that little bit of realism. I also have to say, I love those Knights Santiago (Although I suppose that goes without saying.) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif Even the Fanatics aren't bad, at least for a cheapo unit.

After Portugal was liberated, I proceeded to send another Crusade to Cordoba, using many of the same men from the first one. Another victory Woohoo And of course, on top of that, my king's influence became maxed out. (I'd already known for the forums that increasing influence was an effect of a successful Crusade, but it was still cool to see.)

I do have a couple questions, though:

1) How many troops can you stack onto a Crusade? I assume there's a limit to how big it can be, but how high is it? I had a modest amount in both of mine (2000-2500 or so), but the Crusade marker was still less than half-full. My roommate started with around 6000 and the marker was full; but by the time he reached his target province, it had grown to over 7000, and the marker still hadn't changed. So what's the biggest Crusade anyone here has launched? And does anyone know if there's a limit to how many soldiers can be attached to one?

2) I know the Crusader Knights (the Knights Santiago, in my case) can't be built as a regular unit; but can they still be retrained (if the castle has a chapter house) to replenish their numbers if they suffer losses in combat? Or is another Crusade the only way to swell their ranks again?


I just want to end this post by (once again) saying kudos to Creative Assembly This is one terrific game that they've created

[The Wizard]

The coolest Crusades are those launched as France, travelling over land to Jerusalem and the like. Those are fun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

However I don't like the strange unit sizes you tend to get after a Crusade has travelled to the Levent. =/

[Magraev]

I had a crusade of 4.300 reach Tripoli last night as the french. The trip through a packed burgundy alone (zeal in the 90's) made it grow from under 1.000 to 4.000. Pretty great since it meant I could fullfill the elusive GA "Krak des chevaliers".

[Cebei]

Before you start a crusade, send your religious agents through your crusade route, then follow them with your army. Tadaaa Increased zeal and a bigger army enough to massacre christians in Jerusalem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[The Wizard]

Christians? No, you mean the muslims... THE INFIDELS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Cebei]

Muslims, Jews, Christians... Anybody and everybody... You choose.. (results may vary)

[NewJeffCT]

Wow, even if I start a crusade in a high zeal province, I am lucky to get a 1,000 man crusade to start... (most often, I'll get 1 or 2 units of Crusader knights and a few units of fanatics/peasants)

I have taken to building a large number of troops separate from the crusade using an adjoining province as a rallying point and then sending them along with the crusade just to make it more impressive.

However, the most successful use of crusades for me was as the Spanish - I just launched them to retake all of Spain, province by province from the Almos, and then crusaded across northern Africa to the Holy Lands.

[invalidopcode]

Remember also that moving a crusade thru neighboring provences is a great way to reduce their strength before you attack them. Just run a few thru and you are good to go for future attacks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I found this invaluable when playing as the Argonese and trying to take some of the Spanish territories.

InvalidOpcode

[Satyr]

I don't usually find it economically feasible to launch crusades at neighboring provinces. It costs 1500-2000 florins for a crusade with only 3-4 companies in it. I much prefer to launch crusades when I can pull troops out of other people's provinces. I particularly like raiding the Pope's lands because they are almost always very high zeal and good troops.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Quote[/b] (NewJeffCT @ Dec. 11 2003,10:35)]Wow, even if I start a crusade in a high zeal province, I am lucky to get a 1,000 man crusade to start... (most often, I'll get 1 or 2 units of Crusader knights and a few units of fanatics/peasants)

I have taken to building a large number of troops separate from the crusade using an adjoining province as a rallying point and then sending them along with the crusade just to make it more impressive.

However, the most successful use of crusades for me was as the Spanish - I just launched them to retake all of Spain, province by province from the Almos, and then crusaded across northern Africa to the Holy Lands.
I have never had a crusade START with more than 500 men (5 order foot), but if you start froma high zeal province, empty it of your other troops and let the crusade sit there for the first year - usually it jumps to 800 - 1,000 (though in Castile I had one rise to 1,400&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, then go vacuuming up your neighbours troops. The biggest crusade I ever had arrive without supplement was 2,500ish. Typically Italian and Spanish provinces have high zeal, also French like Ile de France and Champagne and Poland.

[[DnC]]

A while ago when I modded the game to reflect "Huge" size units, but without the double building time, I started a test campaign as the Sicilians and the Hungarians launched a crusade towards Novgorod. Their crusade before arriving at Novgorod composed out of some 12000+ troops

Nothing was changed with the Crusades, except the building time was 10 turns (MM 2.04) and cost was 4000 if I'm correct. I immediatly upped the costs for the crusades after seeing this huge Hungarian horde

[Leet Eriksson]

My largest unmodded crusade was as the spanish,i luanched the crusade from the newly conquered france to Palestine,it was under byzantine control who in a weird sort of way overran both turks and egyptians,i don't know how much i amassed,but i noticed besides the crusade marker 4 flags,and i could estimate roughly 15,000 thousand men.it was truly impressive.

the byzantines stationed diehard troops in palestine(1 varangian guard,lots of byz cav,kataphrakts and barnies),and being lazy i just fought them marching my army en masse,to my shock i only had 7000 left after taking over the province.my army was mostly made up of order foot,knights of santiago,and hordes of cheap fanatics.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]Muslims, Jews, Christians... Anybody and everybody... You choose.. (results may vary)


that`s quite close to the old method; kill everyone, and let god sort them out, who says the innocent have nothing to fear? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Guthwyn]

My only successful crusades so far have either been directed at targets very close by (1 or 2 provinces away), or have been able to reach a target in one turn using ships. In either case, they have never been any larger than 1-2 units of Knights and 1-2 units of Order Foot. (I mostly just launch crusades to get the great knights afterwards).

Guthwyn

[HawaiianHobbit]

Quote[/b] (Magraev @ Dec. 11 2003,07:45)]I had a crusade of 4.300 reach Tripoli last night
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
The most Ive ever had was only around 2 thousand.

[TheSilverKnight]

biggest I had was 6000+ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Martok]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ Dec. 12 2003,08:25)]My largest unmodded crusade was as the spanish,i luanched the crusade from the newly conquered france to Palestine,it was under byzantine control who in a weird sort of way overran both turks and egyptians,i don't know how much i amassed,but i noticed besides the crusade marker 4 flags,and i could estimate roughly 15,000 thousand men.it was truly impressive.
Damn, Faisal, that is impressive Urban II would have been proud. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

That's really odd that the Byzantines control the Holy Land in your game. I know that when a human plays as the Greeks, they usually do pretty well; but I have yet to see the computer do a competent job playing them. In every game I've played (where I'm playing as someone besides the Byz), Constantinople might stand for 150 years or so before the Turks/Egyptians/whoever takes them down--if they're lucky

I'm still waiting for an answer to my other original question, by the way: Can Crusader units at least be retrained (given the appropriate facilities are available), or are they doomed to be whittled down to nothing as combat losses mount?

[Leet Eriksson]

actually the campaign was all screwed up,the egyptians were in cyrenacia and terbizond,the turks last province was in khazar and the novgorods were swallowed by the byz,their empire was so big they attacked my crusade in full1 stacks,lots of pesants,urban militia and byz cav,some stacks had those terrible 8 star princes in them too.thank god i rarely met the varangians(only once and they only had 8 men left,but they did rout 4-5 peasant fanatics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Can Crusader units at least be retrained (given the appropriate facilities are available), or are they doomed to be whittled down to nothing as combat losses mount?

You can't retrain them. The only way to stop them being whittled down is to drag-and-drop on one another and keep building crusades...

Unless you MOD the game, of course... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Martok]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ Dec. 13 2003,09:46)]actually the campaign was all screwed up,the egyptians were in cyrenacia and terbizond,the turks last province was in khazar and the novgorods were swallowed by the byz,their empire was so big they attacked my crusade in full1 stacks,lots of pesants,urban militia and byz cav,some stacks had those terrible 8 star princes in them too.thank god i rarely met the varangians(only once and they only had 8 men left,but they did rout 4-5 peasant fanatics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)
Yeah, the VG are pretty icky to fight against--just one more reason I usually don't mind watching the Byz go down in flames. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Of course, that often means that I'll then have to deal with the Turks; who are even worse with all their f*****g horse archers (and their large amounts of cavalry in general). Oh, how I hate them Egypt is my other favorite faction (besides Spain); and when I play as them, I always go after the Turks first just so I don't have to deal with those bozos later on.

I have to amend one of my earlier statements, by the way. While I was thinking about the Byzantines last night, I remembered that there have been a couple times where they were actually doing well. There was one game in particular (I was playing as the Danes) that stands out in my mind: Constantinople controlled pretty much all the territory from Novgorod to the HRE (whom I had largely taken over by that point), and from the Holy Land almost over to the Strait of Gibraltar--and it looked like I was their next target.

Fortunately for myself, the Golden Horde showed up on the scene, and soon the Byz had much bigger problems to worry about that lil' old me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Aside from that and maybe 1 or 2 other games, however, the Byzantines have usually collapsed by the end of the Early period. And if they haven't, then the Mongols finish off what's left.

[Martok]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 13 2003,10:01)]
Quote[/b] ]Can Crusader units at least be retrained (given the appropriate facilities are available), or are they doomed to be whittled down to nothing as combat losses mount?

You can't retrain them. The only way to stop them being whittled down is to drag-and-drop on one another and keep building crusades...

Unless you MOD the game, of course... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
[sigh] That's what I was afraid of. I would maybe try modding it if I knew how, but I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm almost completely computer illiterate. I know just enough to turn my computer on and off, do email, and surf the web..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Oh well. It's not a big deal. Yes, it would be nice if I could build or at least retrain Crusader units (assuming the province had at least a chapter house, of course), but it's certainly not a gamebreaker for me.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]That's what I was afraid of. I would maybe try modding it if I knew how, but I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm almost completely computer illiterate. I know just enough to turn my computer on and off, do email, and surf the web.....
If you want, I'll explain it for you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Or... ...I could send you a modified file http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Martok]

Well that would definitely be cool. If you're willing to do either of those things, I certainly won't complain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif You want me to shoot you an email and we can figure it out?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]If you're willing to do either of those things, I certainly won't complain
Wich do you prefer? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
The explanation or the file?
Or both? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
If you just want the file, then send me your e-mail... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Martok]

I sent you an email. For the sake of your own sanity, I suggest you just send me the file--but if you prefer to show me how to mod, I'll definitely listen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]For the sake of your own sanity, I suggest you just send me the file
HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif




Quote[/b] ]but if you prefer to show me how to mod, I'll definitely listen
It's not a question of preference... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


I'll just explain you the basics to tweak the units.

If you use a little prog (Gnome) made by one of the members of the ORG, you'll see that changes to the units are quite simple.
You have to load Gnome and then load the file CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.txt on the Medieval root. This prog organizes the data in excel type worksheets. This allows much easier changes to the units file.
Some PRO moders on the ORG never use Gnome, because they prefer to tweak it from the inside. But, for someone who doesn't really want to learn how to mod and just wants to tweak the units, I find it almost perfect... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Precautions:

1-Backup your files. Copy the original CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.txt to another directory (like Original File) to keep it safe. In case your changes make the game crash, you can always copy the original to make it work again.

2-Make and save your changes in another directory (like Altered File). If you want to see how your changes worked, copy the altered file to the Medieval root, load the game and load a saved campaign.


Changing unit characteristics:

Inside Gnome, with the file loaded, you have a little less than 200 lines, each representing one unit. Each column represents characteristics of each unit. For instance, in the case of Nizari, if you scroll along the columns, you'll see INFANTRY under Unit Type, 400 under Cost, 4 under Support Cost, etc...
All this characteristics can be changed. I recomend that you leave them be, for now. If you scroll down until you reach line 88 you'll see the Crusader units.
You can open 2 sessions of Gnome and compare the original file with the one I've sent you. Go to the column 17 (the one that says "Buildings needed to produce this unit") in both Gnome sessions and compare what is written.
In the original, the cells don't have anything written, therefore not allowing you to train or retrain those units. In the altered file, you'll see that I added the folowing text:

"{ CHAPTER_HOUSE, ARMOURER3, HORSE_BREEDER3 }"
or
"{CHAPTER_HOUSE, ARMOURER3, HORSE_BREEDER3}"

This was made for all the Crusader Knights. This allows you to train and retrain them, but only when ALL of this buildings are built in a province.

Remember, when altering the text, be sure that the underscores, " and {} are all they way I've shown above. If not, there will be a syntax error and the game will crash.

You might want to open CRUSADER_BUILD_PROD13.txt. That is the file concerning the construction of buildings. If you don't know the name of a building that you want to use as a prerequisite for one of your units, you might open the file to see the way it was designated.

Voilá For units change, that's all...



If you find more advanced modding to be to your liking, I recomend the following threads:

How to create a basic Mod Txt file, Modding 101 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=26;t=13313)

The Dungeon's FAQ (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=26;t=10127)

Adding new factions in VI (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=26;t=10129)

Changes to startpos files in VI (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=26;t=10130)

List of Editing Guides (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=26;t=10128)


For more specific and advanced questions:

Alchemist Lab (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=SF;f=5)


Hope I've been helpfull... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Edit: You version is VI isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif
I forgot to ask, but it's important...

[The Tuffen]

My biggest crusade was 11,000 men aimed at portugal -I thought that might stop it rebelling so often http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif