Worthless units

[mbrasher1]

OK, I like variety. But Saracen inf are so superior to Muwahid in nearly everything that matters for a spear unit. Why would you ever build one?

Similarly, futuuwa are so superior to Turcoman foot (which I think are inferior to Otto inf in everything but speed. Why build the Turco foot except in its special province?

I guess that it comes down to seeing that it makes sense to have armies that are chivalric sarges, maa and pavise arbs, backed by light cav and a few heavies. I wish that you had a different choice -- a decent sword unit (and a javelin skirmisher) for the Turks; a Byz spear, a Catholic ghazi, if you will.

Did you know that the most powerful Russian sword inf unit is the handgunner, with a 1 melee rating?

I guess that every faction has this sort of hole in their unit roster by design. Even the super-flexible Byz, with excellent horse archers, hvy cav, inf, VG, etc, lack a decent spear unit.

[torsoboy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Muwahid somewhat faster? I use them as a second line, to plug any holes after the first melee, and to intercept flanking cavalry. But then again, Saracens could be used for that role too.

Turcomans are decent archers that don't randomly charge the enemy, unlike Futuwwa. You could of course micromanage everything and that makes you a better player than I am.

I do agree on you that some factions aren't as well rounded as the prototype Catholics but that is also the charm of playing the game. The stereotyping of factions (and thereby cutting off troop types that do not contribute to the stereotype) is accomplished in Wes' Medmod, and to great effect I say.

[[DnC]]

Muwahid Foot soldiers are best used as flanking troops.
Muwahids: MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 12 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 13 ), CHARGE_BONUS( 7 ), MELEE_BONUS( 1 ).
Saracens: MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ), CHARGE_BONUS( 5 ), MELEE_BONUS( -1 ).

Muwahids are faster, have a better charge and have better melee, thus they make good flankers.
Use your saracen's to hold the lines and flank with your Muwahids.

Turcoman Foot have an unformed formation (whereas Futuwwa are poorly formed, just a bit better formed then unformed), which makes them harder to hit by arrows or am I wrong there?
Anyways Turcoman Foot are also faster, but for an archer that seems less important (imo) then for a melee unit which could use it to great effect for flanking.
Futuwwa have a better melee, but they'll die quicker then Turcoman Foot. So you could use Futuwwa as flankers, but they lack the speed Turcoman Foot have. Melee is less important with archer units, though some hybrids can be useful. Futuwwa are also in time more expensive then Turcoman Foot.

If you want a pure archer unit, go for Turcoman Foot. If you want a Hybrid melee/archer unit, go for Futuwwa (use their arrows to soften the targets they'll charge).

Don't count on me that I'm right though, someone else could know a lot better.

Btw different types of armies make it also far more interesting to play a different faction. If they are all based on the same type of warfare, then the game would be less interesting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif There are many different ways to wage war.

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (mbrasher1 @ Dec. 12 2003,09:44)]OK, I like variety. But Saracen inf are so superior to Muwahid in nearly everything that matters for a spear unit. Why would you ever build one?

Similarly, futuuwa are so superior to Turcoman foot (which I think are inferior to Otto inf in everything but speed. Why build the Turco foot except in its special province?

I guess that it comes down to seeing that it makes sense to have armies that are chivalric sarges, maa and pavise arbs, backed by light cav and a few heavies. I wish that you had a different choice -- a decent sword unit (and a javelin skirmisher) for the Turks; a Byz spear, a Catholic ghazi, if you will.

Did you know that the most powerful Russian sword inf unit is the handgunner, with a 1 melee rating?

I guess that every faction has this sort of hole in their unit roster by design. Even the super-flexible Byz, with excellent horse archers, hvy cav, inf, VG, etc, lack a decent spear unit.
Hm.

For instance Almohads cannot build saracens at all, and Nubians only in the desert, and even when upgraded, Nubians should remain exactly there, in the desert.
Muhawids, although they are only 60 men, can hold their own if upgraded properly and once you have no choice but to use them you'll learn that they aren't so bad as you thought. They can hold cavalry, are fast enough to get to critical spots in a battle and have a higher morale along with a good charge. Pretty much what you would expect from a speartype infantry unit. But they do require a balanced army around them to be most effective, which is really the secret of any army setup. Balance out the weaknesses of one unit by means of the strengths of another and you'll never run into an enemy that you can't defeat.

You would build turcoman foot out of two reasons. One is the flavour, two, and more importantly, is to use them as a cheap shield and get the enemy to attack and shoot at them rather than at your valuable futuwwas who are much better in the melee fighting and should avoid taking losses before actually engaging.

You do have lots of choices for your army setups, the Turks have a strong sword infantry, called Janissary Infantry, and and even better polearm infantry called Janissary Heavy Inf. The murabitin javelin throwers may not be available to them (I don't recall at the moment), but you can hire them as mercenaries if you cannot live without them.
The Byzantines have a basic spear unit, when upgraded it is adequate, but you don't really need it when you can field Byzantine Infantry.
The strongest Russian sword unit is actually the dismounted druzhina knights, and you can always use halberdiers and militia sarges to kill enemy sword infantry.
True, there is no Catholic Ghazi, but the crusader heavy knights will have the same high morale and superior mobility and thus also give you a choice.
Imagine if you had the same units for every faction, wouldn't that be boring? It wouldn't matter much which faction you picked at the selection screen and you'd always see the same enemy armies again and again.
This has been done before, and if you like evenly balanced factions better, I suggest you give STW or the upcoming Shogun mod for MTW a try.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Excellent posts, [DnC] and Brutal DLX http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

mbrasher1:
Muwahid are indeed excelent, for their charge and specially morale They very rarelly rout.
Remember they are only 60 men units, comparing to all the other spear units of 100. For their size, they are superb

Just to add some minor points:

In regard to Turkish units, remember that they have very different building requirements. In Early, in the beggining of the game, you can't build advanced units like JA or JI, so you got to make do with the other weaker units. After reaching some more advanced units, then you should start to build them almost exclusivelly...



Quote[/b] ]Imagine if you had the same units for every faction, wouldn't that be boring? It wouldn't matter much which faction you picked at the selection screen and you'd always see the same enemy armies again and again.
Preciselly... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[The_Emperor]

Someone mentioned the differences between Turcoman Foot and Futtuwas...

Personally I think they are very similar, but I do prefer Turcoman Foot for general combat.

Futtuwas I tend to use in the desert, where their lack of armour and their high morale can really help. But they can chage without orders, and I don't like that sort of recklessness in my archers.

Turcoman Foot I find are much better in the more Temperate Zones of Europe. They do have their own natural loose formation (similar to Javelin Units) which gives them a boost in Archer Duels. Their main advantage in my view is the fact that they are Armoured, this gives them a great advantage in any archer duel.

Train them from a Master Bowyer in their high valor province and you'll have some first rate archers

Muwahids on the other hand I really don't like, when i was fighting the Mongols in the Almohad PBM Morale was a very big issue, the Muwahids just folded in the face of Mongol Heavy Cav

But this is the weakness of the Almohads, once you get into the high and late eras that sort of superior Heavy Cavalry will scatter your armies to the Four Winds

In the choice between Saracens and Muwahids, its no contest for me... Saracens all the way. I only build Muwahid if I have no choice, or I need some cheap/expendable units to bulk out my army.

[econ21]

Emperor - my Almohad Nubians also frequently failed against Mongols in the (other?) Almohad PBM campaign so it is not exclusively a failing of the Muhawids. As you say, the Almohads are really in trouble at that stage in the campaign.

I never deliberately fielded Muhawid's in my first 16 - the 60 strength makes them inferior to Nubians as anti-cav meatshields, IMO. Of course, Saracen would be way better - they are Chivalric Sergeants (at a discount, IIRC), that can be bought on early. [This leads to the rather ahistorical situation of the Turk and Egyptian infantry being better armoured than the Catholics]

However, Muhawids did save my bacon on several occasions when they came on as reinforcements after my first 16 had legged it. They have above average morale, IIRC, so that means your reinforcements are more likely to stand despite the rout of your opening army and even of your general. Often your first wave has depleted the enemy enough that the small 60 unit size is not so much of a handicap. They are also fast and so you can take advantage of the AI probably being strung out and dispersed due to pursuit of your routing first wave. Ghazis - with their higher morale and fast speed - have similar virtues as reinforcements and make a decent second class army when combined with Muhawids and vanilla archers. After battling the Mongols as Almos, I came to the conclusion that it was important to field a second 16 army and not to rely exclusively on the opening 16 to win a battle for you.

Beyond that, Muhawids are useful for Almos, as - outside of desert provinces - they are the only spears they can train. I don't build many but I would use them for more than population control (unlike the murabitin, which I have never got the hang off).

[Brutal DLX]

Yes, once you get to High/Late, you have to upgrade your Muhawids or else they will die like flies. Because they don't have a good defense no matter what, you don't want them to be in the primary line of battle, but use them as support and flankers versus other infantry (your AUMs should be the fronline) and to stall any cavalry, which works well since the Muhawids are fast and small and can react better to the enemy cavalry movements. Fully upgraded Muhawids can hold and deplete Mongol Heavy cav, and allow you to deliver the coup de grace with your own cavalry.
If those upgraded ones aren't available, you'll have to win by numbers...

The Murabitin are standard javelin throwers, they are expecially nice to have around in desert provinces. But you better keep them out of harm's way, ie, don't allow them to get attacked unless you decide to charge them in the rear of some faltering unit. Basically you don't need them in an essential way, but you could put, say, 2 of them in the first 16 units and withdraw them after they've used up their javelins. Javelins really work well against armour, anybody who uses Jinetes will know what I mean.

[ROCKHAMMER]

No unit is useless, you just have to discover it's strengths and weaknesses.Every unit in the game has the potential to also win the day for you if used properly.I will also leave you w/ one other thought.

Soldiers are only as good as the man who leads them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[invalidopcode]

The Muwahids have their place if only for the morale boost. When playing in Expert more, the AI morale bonus makes it tough to keep those Saracen from running away.

Playing as the Turks, I have lost a number of battles because the Saracen just turned around and ran in the middle of a battle. Kind of tough to make them the backbone because of it. Of course later when I get some infrastructure built with some bonus-producing building and get a few good generals it is not really a problem. But early on, it helps to use some Muwahids.

My $0.02

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Muwahids on the other hand I really don't like, when i was fighting the Mongols in the Almohad PBM Morale was a very big issue, the Muwahids just folded in the face of Mongol Heavy Cav

But this is the weakness of the Almohads, once you get into the high and late eras that sort of superior Heavy Cavalry will scatter your armies to the Four Winds

In the choice between Saracens and Muwahids, its no contest for me... Saracens all the way. I only build Muwahid if I have no choice, or I need some cheap/expendable units to bulk out my army.
Not quite like that...



Quote[/b] ]The Muwahids have their place if only for the morale boost. When playing in Expert more, the AI morale bonus makes it tough to keep those Saracen from running away.

Playing as the Turks, I have lost a number of battles because the Saracen just turned around and ran in the middle of a battle. Kind of tough to make them the backbone because of it. Of course later when I get some infrastructure built with some bonus-producing building and get a few good generals it is not really a problem. But early on, it helps to use some Muwahids.
Correct

[Guthwyn]

Hmmm...I always liked the Muwahids because of their morale and their speed. They've never run on me, which is more than I can say for some Saracen Infantry I have used. Generally, I use them to hold enemy cavalry until my own cavalry can flank and charge.
However, I would certainly agree that a 100 man unit of upgraded Saracen Infantry from a province with morale upgrades makes a better backbone for an army.

Guthwyn

[Ja'chyra]

A wise man once said There is no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes. The same holds true here, there is no such thing as a worthless unit, just the way you use it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]A wise man once said There is no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes. The same holds true here, there is no such thing as a worthless unit, just the way you use it.
Couldn't have said it better myself... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Ironside]

What about mamluk handgunners? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
How do you use a unit that is worthless in battle and got only a handgun that doesn't kill anything. Only good is that it's sceary, and that's regular handgunners to.

Try the murabitin/muwahid combo sometime, it's a good cav killer. But I admit I don't use muwahids often if I'm not Almohad.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]What about mamluk handgunners?
They're not worthless http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
If you MOD them, of course... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Sun Tzui]

Quote[/b] ]A wise man once said There is no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes

The same applies to: When you can't dance, you can always blame the shoes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif