Help with the HRE

[Vigi]

Well I want to start a campaign as the HRE. Figured it would be fun to use all those units they have, from the swabians to the gothics it looks like they have a very strong roster. I am, however, pretty daunted by their starting position. You are surrounded by other factions and your own provinces aren't particularly loyal. I tend to be a build build build kind of guy and hate to see any province not building something useful but I will obviously not be able to use that policy here. It would seem a wise idea to develop the heartlands first but I don't know in what direction to take things. Any tips would be most welcome. It seems like this type of faction has a difficult first 50 years, but after that it would be a cake walk. In that case I guess I basically need some tips for those first 50 years ;p.

[mercian billman]

Im just finishing up a GA acheivmants campaign with the HRE. I defeated the Italians, French, then conquered Spain, Morroco, and Algeria for the catholic faith and, am currently involved in a war with the Sicilians, which I am winning. I caused their mainland provinces to rebel bribed the rebel armies, and had them trapped in Croatia where I destroyed the bulk of their forces, did the same thing with the Almohads trapping them in Castile http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I reccomend you check out

http://www.freewebs.com/blackprince/HRE%20Early.htm

I just found it last night excellent guide. It's long so I'll just give you some general tips.

-For your first 2 turns build watch towers, and border forts. They'll increase loyalty which you will need
-Monitor your provinces loyalty every turn especially when your at war. Playing as the HRE requires a lot of micromangement.
-Build agriculture most of your provinces will warrant at least 40% agriculture.
-Expect Italy to Attack you once you start building ships in the med.
-Make sure all your provinces(especially your provinces bordering France, and Italy) are adequately defended.
-Do not allow the Almohads to expand past the Pyrrenes. Instead of having weak english, and French neighbors you will have a strong Islamic neighbor that doesn't have to worry about the pope.
-For provisional troop specialties Build your cavalry in Saxony, Pike and Spear units in Switzerland, FMAA, CMAA in Franconia, your missle units in Swabia, Friesland for ships, and Provene for diplomatic agents. After I take Genoa I use it to build Genoese Archers, use Provene for ships
-In your first few years each province should be defended by 2-3 Spearmen 1 Archer, and 1-2 Peasents this will keep provisional loyalty up, and gives you a cheap(not so reliable) defense. After you start making money you can make improvements.
-Build up a good imternal security network place assasins in your provices to eliminate enemy diplomatic agents, and use spies to forment rebellions. Tomorrow I'll try to post about the proper use of diplomatic agents Im to tired to do it right now.

Finally DO NOT GET EXCOMMED

[Voigtkampf]

Yes, babe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

You right here I mostly play HRE, starting early time.

Here is a little piece of my own strategy guide - work in slow progress, and I mean slow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif



Ah, yes, The Holy German Empire or "Das Heilige Roemische Reich des Deutschen Folkes", The Holy Roman Empire of the German People, as it is called in original. As well as my favorite faction, they are also one of those who are harder to play with in M:TW. Curious, since the description deems them average, but the reality is quite different. Surrounded by six catholic and regularly aggressive neighbors (especially the French) HRE has a lot of lands and the greatest armies, but their forces are scattered and the income from lands is relatively meager. Since catholic, their neighbors cannot be attacked without serious consequences, and nobody likes HRE much, so when the Pope gives green light you'll be up to your armored medieval behind in zealous crusaders. The only province that actually CAN be conquered without impunity (rebel scorn means little) is the Pomerania at north-east from Brandenburg...

And that's about it, the rest needs some fixing, I'll rundown some main stuff here.

First of all, the provinces exposed to the French will be most likely the target of their attack. No matter how fast you build your troops, unless involved in total war with the English, the Franch will be most definately the first faction to attack. The Hungarians come in next, than the Italians. surprisingly, Polish are the last. This is no programmed order, it's simply most of the time so.

No matter how it turns out, whether you attack or get attacked or liberate your province from the aggressor, you get excommed, so heed my advice and get Flanders ASAP, it's a reach and strategically one of the most important provinces and will support your war efforts massively. I'm afraid that you will hardly be able to build exclusive units early in the game, you'll need massive speermen and archers, some mounted seagents so you can build up defensive armies and secure your border provinces as much as possible. But nothing of this helps, you'll get attacked sooner or later...

Oh, and mind your production facilities. No matter how good you are, one of them will be overrun, and although you will probably be able to get it back, you'll lose the valuable buildings. Therefore, build as much as possible in your more secured, inland provinces. Oh, and if you build too much in Switzerland, be prepared to defend it when the Swiss emerge

Well, that's about it... Oh, and when your generals get disloyal, simply build watch towers and border forts in your entire empire, it boosts their loyalty instantly, almost always giving you a great builder virtue and increased happines throughout the empire.

Hope it helps, cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[ichi]

The Billman andf Voigtkampf both provide excellent suggestions.

In Early, for the first 50-100 years, on a more theoretical level:

Make all your decisions carefully. As you stated, if you try to do everything everywhere you won't get much done.

Nothing unnecessary. Get Saxony working on cav, but do not worry about any buildings not necessary for Feudals (no archery dojo for example). In Swabia, dont build any melee troops buildings, just archers. Specialize, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Archers, cav and cav archers (mounted xbows). In the early years maybe 100 man infantry units aren't the best place to put your money.

Get that money up, but don't worry about buidling farms in Switzerland or other poor agricultural provinces. Ships up north first.

Ride the edge of being weak. No mercs. Keep pace with your neighbors, but don't build a lot of units. More money, more money, more money.

Be opportunistic. Wait to see if the French get in a war with England, or the Italians get excommed. Be flexible.

Figure on losing a province or two from time to time. Underdeveloped provinces can be lost without as much pain as those that you have put a lot of time and money into upgrading. Like Bohemia, I usually go slow in Bohemia, and leave it a little open. Risky, but saves money.

Lots of diplomacy. Every turn, keep trying. Keep those diplomats movings.

Get morale/valor boosting upgrades in your infantry and cav provinces. Fewer, better units.

Don't get excommed (stated by others). When possible, use the slash and burn method - capture an adjacent province when the Pope isn't looking and sell everything, then move on.

Pretty basic stuff. If I can, I try to get ride of the Danes and the French first, reduce the number of border provinces.

ichi

[mercian billman]

[quote=ichi,Dec. 14 2003,04:49]The Billman and Voigtkampf both provide excellent suggestions.
quote]

Thank you Ichi. Perhaps I should change my username to just The Billman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I would like to add that you should build a strategic reserve with your king as it's commander, and place it in one of your central provinces Bavaria, Switzerland, Swabia, and Franconia

Here's my advice for diplomacy

-Build at least 2 Bishops place 1 in either Aragon or Navarre, and the other in Constantanople. This allows you to monitor the Islamic factions as long as their not in Europe your okay. Most catholic factions will not kill bishops.

-Place assasins in your central provinces. This way when you see a diplomatic agent enter your border provinces you can move 2-3 assasins to kill him instead of just the one in that province.

-Kill any diplomatic agents from France, Italy, Denmark, Poland, or Hungary. If thet send diplomats to two or more provinces you share a border with they are likely planning a attack. This is how I discerned the Italians were planning a attack. I was able to beef up my defenses, and hire a few mercenaries.

-Spies serve a dual purpose they ensure loyalty in you provinces, and lower loyalty in the provinces of other factions. They also inform you if other factions are mobilising to attack they're not very dependable though so just watch the map.

-Place one spy in each of your border provinces, and wherever your king goes.

-When sending spies to a foreign country send at least 10 your almost garunteed a rebellion, and keep sending one more each year to replace losses you may have.

-I recomend sending spies to generally unruly provinces like portugal, and Scotland, if your sending them off to an Island send an emissary. It sucks watching your 7 star spies after a province has been recaptured, and they forget to build a port. This happened when the Byzantine were beaten back to their Islands, and the turks took over after I caused peasent rebellions.

-Use spies to isolate enemy armies. For instance my war with the Almohads lasted from 1293-1301 but, preperation began in 1197 after I defeated the French, and forced the British off the continent. By this time I had conquered Italy but, chose not to invade the Papal lands. My goal was to build up my eastern defenses, and use diplomacy to keep the Almohads at bay. I had managed to hold them off until the 1150s when they invaded Aquitane, and Toulouse. I repelled their attacks, and counter attacked into Navarre and, Aragon after I conquered the provinces the Kaliphate asked for peace, and I gave it to him. I then moved about 20 spies(mostly 4-5 stars, some 7s, and some with 0) into Portugal, and Leon causing rebellions. After about 20 years Portugal went completely rebel, and a few years later Leon went rebel. I then repeated the process with Castile, and Valencia. This added rougly an extra 3-4 thousand men(mostly Muwaahids, peasents, and such) to my Military, Portugal was actually a catholic uprising. It also trapped 3000 Almohads in Castile right where I wanted them. In a epic decisive battle 2500 Almohads were killed or captured along wwith their Kaliphate. While 1700 of my 5000 men were killed, at least a thousand of these were muslim peasents. Had I not trapped them in Castile I would have been forced to invade Castile and, Valencia, as Navarre, and Aragon were not completely loyal I would be spreading myself thin and, the Almohads would be able to counter attack any provices I took one at a time. In essence without my spies after my initial invasion I would have had to give the iniative to the Almohads meaning a war of attrition. As it turned out the war ended in 4 years, the Morrocan garrison held out for 4 years.

[Magraev]

For an agressive start I'd invade Pomerania as soon as you can get your king there. Two turns later invade Denmark, storming the castle immediately. Then grab the rest of scandinavia.

Placing large garrisons in each borderprovince in peacetimes becomes much too expensive. I like to have a good army in every second borderprovince that can reply to an invasion as needed. Keeping 1-2 large stacks in the interior can make for a nice lifesaving reserve.

About provinces my main advice is to build melee-troops (cav and inf) in the iron provinces (Franconia and bohemia I believe). By the time you get to gothic knights in Saxony the game has probably been decided anyway, and I'd still prefer a +4 attack to a +1 valor.

[torsoboy]

One trick I've learnt (and I'm not sure if everybody is aware of it) is that you can promote any equal star unit to leader of the stack by dragging it out of the stack and then dragging it back onto the stack. This is especially handy for the HRE because they start with many three-shield loyal stack leaders.

There is no reason for unloyal subjects to be at the head of the stack, so put their head on top of a stake once you can.

[NewJeffCT]

My experience as the HRE was that it is tough to keep your income up as all your kings and heirs seem to have very low acumen. So, I would expand north quickly and kill off the Danes and the surrounding rebel provinces (Pomerania & then Prussia, I think) if the Poles have not taken them. From there, go north into Sweden & Norway and start building your trade. Make sure you go into Denmark with a huge force so you can wipe them out within two years or you will get excommunicated and rebellions will break out every where.

Also, as an above poster said, in your first two years, build watch towers and border forts in every province and make sure your LONG borders are well defended. Killing the Danes will shorten your borders, as they can easily strike in to 3 provinces from there, and Denmark with Sweden & Norway are very easy to defend. Plus, you have good trade potential with all three, as they have a total of 7 trade goods, and Sweden has good farm lands as well.

From there, I build my fleet and my trade and try to do an occasional crusade to help out my Catholic buddies. See if you can crusade in to Antioch or Tripoli, as both are very valuable trade provinces.

[Nelson]

When I last played the HRE I made war on the Italians first. Genoa produces good archers, Tuscany good urban militia and Venice is great for building a trade empire. The French attacked but I was able to hold them off until I bid the Italians arrivederci. Baltic rebels were bribed.

[The_678]

I haven't read all of the rest of those huge suggestions so I don't know if this as already been stated. What I almost always do is attack Denmark right away. You can easily kill them in the two years before excomm and get the sweet swedish province. Scandinavia is a pretty secure province and Sweden is one of the best provinces in the game. It can be a HUGE money maker and it has iron.
There's my 0.02$
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Jeanne d'arc]

Citaat[/b] (mercian billman @ Dec. 14 2003,02:00)]I reccomend you check out

http://www.freewebs.com/blackprince/HRE%20Early.htm
That guide really helps , read it

[NewJeffCT]

Quote[/b] (The_678 @ Dec. 16 2003,11:58)]Scandinavia is a pretty secure province and Sweden is one of the best provinces in the game. It can be a HUGE money maker and it has iron.
There's my 0.02$
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Sweden is very secure, and you also do not have to worry about missile troops. Get some archers (or mtd crossbows) and wear down those vikings and let your fresh troops (a royal knight or two and some urban militia and your own vikings) finish them off after your archers and others have whittled down the vikings.

[Satyr]

Hmmmmm, I like to take out the French quickly. This gives me really rich provinces without significantly lengthening my borders and eliminates the threat from one side of my empire. Then I kick the Brits off the continent and I am free to concentrate on defending the eastern half of my empire while I build econ in France and then start my trading empire. Only after that is done do I worry about the Danes and the rest of Scandinavia.

[Kristaps]

I, personally, love to play an early defensive game with HRE. Urban militia (upkeep only 30 - cheaper than peasants) does work wonders against french hobilars and even royal knights if placed in the dense woods of lorraine or provence... Hehehe, the memories of those neat forest battles make me feel like dodging work and going home to play http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

So here is my 2 cents for an HRE early campaign: until you get your economy flowing, rely on urban militia (replace with militia sergeants once available: the same upkeep cost). Usually, I would have hordes (but not really full stacks since I like to lure the French into my trap) of urban militia-men guarding the provinces bordering France (no archers, just plain militia), ready to run to the woods on the first sign of French cavalry/archers appearing... And, yes: once the French attack, I DO take Flanders from them: a rich province easily defendable with urban militiamen (lots of woods) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

In the high (if I start in this period): the Swiss halberdiers are irreplaceable... I've defended provinces just with three units of those (placed in the woods) against hordes of italians and papists http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

p.s. my tactic for defeating royals (and feudal knights) with urban militia in the woods: charge one unit on 'hold formation' against the knights while flanking with another one (in wedge formation). the knights run soon... this is harder to pull in the high: but you should have militia sergeants by then anyways http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Bevan of Hertfordshire]

Simply do this

-Do not get excommunicated, it always tears the HRE apart.

-Second, keep and eye on your generals and populace every turn.

If you unite the HRE it becomes incredibly powerful

[TheSilverKnight]

I build up a Chivalrous Army of Foot Knights and Mounted Knights, then go for Italy, sparing the Pope. It's very helpful to get the port regions of Tuscany, Venice, and Genoa, because then you gain access to the Mediterranean, and then once you start trading, say hello to the florins http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif *makes ching-ching noises* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[CeeBod]

Just one thing I'd add to this - Ally with the Byzants if at all possible - the biggest weakness of the HRE early on can be a lack of good generals, whilst the Byzant of course have an over-abundance of them.

Failing to remember this cost me my last HRE early game - the Byzants refused entry to my crusade, putting us at war, and they instantly charged into Austria, over-running my army with ease before going on to kick my arse at will for the next couple of years http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[ShadesWolf]

I started a guide on HRE, it worth a read....

German SP Campaigns Guide (http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/hre/germanfaction.htm)

Please note in my opinion, the way to succeed as HRE is to eliminate the Papacy, this should be a short term objective.


http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/hre/hreearlyunhappy.gif

Also once removed, it is a good idea to leave there province alone and allow them to re-spawn, which they always do.

This will remove your loyalty problem, but it is a little hard early on..... The the benefits well outway the problem.....



http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/hre/hreearlyloyal.gif

[mercian billman]

Great image Shadeswolf http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I find that stationing a large army in Tuscany is a good way to ensure the Pope stays quite.