Religion in R:TW

[Voigtkampf]

An issue about religion…

This was a quite important factor in M:TW, so there is a question if there will be religion playing a significant role in R:TW and if (which is the probable outcome) how will it be handled? Will there be priests, religious temples/buildings and similar? How will they work?

I believe it would be interesting to see how the majority of Org members feel about this issue. How would you want it? Also, if you have any information that is not included in the official FAQ, please bring them on

[Leet Eriksson]

Well religion was not really that important,Rome did tolerate practice of religion and religion was not really a big concern,like in the middle ages.

[Basileus]

Well some kind of religous system should be implemented i think would be more fun, should not be like in MTW though..i want to be able to get guidelines from me oracle in delphi heh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Beelzebub]

Maybe they won't need it in the game, but they should still code it into the engine for modders and future versions.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Although I agree that the aproach to religion, in Roman times, was different to the the one in the Middle Ages, I don't think it was a minor Roman, Greek or Egyptian concern.

The Romans were tolerant of politeistic religions, but gave quite a lot of importance to religious cerimonies. They made offerings and even sacrifices... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif

The main diference with the Middle Ages, besides the monotheism-politheism opposition, was related to the political importance of religion in the Roman politics. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif

In the Middle Ages the Papacy had an enormous political influence
We only need the ORG's members opinion about the Pope on that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

However, in Rome, there was a disconnection between religion and state. So, although there was no political importance, the social aspect of religion was still very important...

[The Wizard]

At the time, the Egyptians had the Greek religion... at least the upper class did. I don't know if the average Egyptian still worshipped Ra, Osiris, Set and their like...

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Beelzebub @ Dec. 16 2003,10:47)]Maybe they won't need it in the game, but they should still code it into the engine for modders and future versions.
My hopes exactly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif


True, religion was not "as important" as in the medieval times, mostly because politheistic religion handle other divinities much easier, since the conquerors mostly tend to incorporate the local gods into their own structures instead of trying to banish and forbid them.

Then again, if the respected ones take a look at Homer, one might easiliy notice just how important religion was to the Greeks. Again, true that the Romans were more objective fellas, but if one would play the game as a Greek faction, it would be poor playing without the Delfi and the temples of Athens and Ares

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Dec. 16 2003,12:30)]At the time, the Egyptians had the Greek religion... at least the upper class did. I don't know if the average Egyptian still worshipped Ra, Osiris, Set and their like...
And as another one from the treasure chest... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif

Did you know that the Egyptians had over 2000 gods?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

hmmm,well the arabs had roughly 700 gods,before islam that is.

[Spino]

Roman soldiers were notorious for their worship of local gods when campaigning in foreign lands. I guess it's better to keep strange gods at bay or if possible, on your side. I believe the Roman army was particularly fond of Mithra, who was the god of battle (and invincible to boot).

As an aside, I do remember reading somewhere that Constantine's conversion to Christianity took place only after weighing the pros and cons of the existing religions of the time, Mithraism being one of them (no surprise as Christianity was simply an altered and updated version of Mithraism). Of course this conflicts with the legend that Constantine had a dream where the god of the Jews spoke to him and drew the symbol of the crucifix in the sky... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Anyway it would be cool if a general who possessed the V&V 'Worshipper of Mithra' offered a modest Morale Boost to his troops... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Even if it doesn't have a big effect on game play, it should be in. Religion gave MTW some of its 'flavour'.

[RisingSun]

Religion should be in the game, but should have little to no affect on gameplay, besides happiness-inducng temples and the like.

The reason being: Any polytheistic culture that ran into another simply assumed they were talking about the same gods. Like, a Greek walks into Egypt, and gts exlained who the Egyptian god of the harvest is. So he goes to himself "OOOH, they mean Demeter"

Gods wer gods, and they were the same. Read Herodotus and you'll know what I mean.

PS- Cool New smilies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/snowman.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/birthday.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/santa.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The reason being: Any polytheistic culture that ran into another simply assumed they were talking about the same gods. Like, a Greek walks into Egypt, and gts exlained who the Egyptian god of the harvest is. So he goes to himself "OOOH, they mean Demeter"

Gods wer gods, and they were the same. Read Herodotus and you'll know what I mean.
A very interesting point you mentioned... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Voigtkampf]

RisingSun
has an interesting point, which is quite accurate to some degree. As I said before, polytheistic religions have much less problems with different divine entities, unlike monotheistic religions which claim "one and only" doctrine, because they can simply integrate other gods in their cultures.

"What, you have no godess of hunt?Here, share ours" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]"What, you have no godess of hunt? Here, share ours"
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Yes, that was just about it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[rasoforos]

hey i want religion in the game , time to see the greeks have a proper religion for once in my life...

[Alrowan]

i tihnk it plays an important role

heck, take out religeon, and we can forget the endless revolts of the jews, or maybe those oralces wont want to help us no more. Romans were very religeous, with nearly every day being dedicated to gods, and constant feasting

[Voigtkampf]

I also believe, after observing the new advisor on the official site and since she reminds you of important dates to celebrate (Saturnalia, for example), that you might get serious loyalty problems if you ignore important religious dates and miss to prepare a decent party. Those parties would probably include sacrifices or gladiator shows and many more, differing from culture to culture, bringing you additional honor/valor if preformed to people's satisfaction, as it was in the real life back then.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I also believe, after observing the new advisor on the official site and since she reminds you of important dates to celebrate (Saturnalia, for example), that you might get serious loyalty problems if you ignore important religious dates and miss to prepare a decent party.
It's quite logical for that to happen, due to the way Romans performed in religious life, but also because it will allow more depth in the game.

[Ludens]

How can you miss important dates when the games measures time in years (turns)?

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Dec. 23 2003,10:42)]How can you miss important dates when the games measures time in years (turns)?
Good point, I have no answer to that, I would suggest you to visit the official site and see the advisors (Victoria) comments on certain dates, perhaps they've put this date reminding only as an example…check also the Res Romanae, Advisors for RTW (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=19;t=13659;) thread for more info...

[alman9898]

(The game is measured in seasons IIRC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

As for religion, it shouldn't play as huge of a role as in MTW, but it should be in. Like building temples to certain gods (the most important of course) and oracles.

I also like the idea implemented into Caesar 3 where you could hold festivals in honor of certain gods, which raises the happiness of the people (and gods, but including the gods' actions in the game would be dumb and unrealistic).

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (alman9898 @ Dec. 23 2003,19:26)](The game is measured in seasons IIRC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
Are you sure? I remember a discussion not so long ago in which everyone petitioned for this feature, but was pessimistic as to the effect of this petition. It would be a very good idea to return to the season-based turns of STW. On the other hand, it would make the game incredibly long.

Anyway, what does IIRC mean?


Quote[/b] ]As for religion, it shouldn't play as huge of a role as in MTW, but it should be in. Like building temples to certain gods (the most important of course) and oracles.
Indeed


Quote[/b] ]I also like the idea implemented into Caesar 3 where you could hold festivals in honor of certain gods, which raises the happiness of the people (and gods, but including the gods' actions in the game would be dumb and unrealistic).
Agreed. I liked it of Ceasar 3, but uncluding a God-factor would be totally out of the Total War-"style".


Quote[/b] ]KILL RANDOM PEOPLE AND DRINK THEIR BLOOD
Why?

[alman9898]

Quote[/b] (alman9898 @ Dec. 23 2003,19:26)](The game is measured in seasons IIRC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Quote[/b] ]Are you sure? I remember a discussion not so long ago in which everyone petitioned for this feature, but was pessimistic as to the effect of this petition. It would be a very good idea to return to the season-based turns of STW. On the other hand, it would make the game incredibly long.
Yes, each turn is 6 months or two seasons. I remember seeing 'Summer' on the camp map screenie somewhere near the year.


Quote[/b] ]Anyway, what does IIRC mean?
If I Remember/Recall Correctly.



Quote[/b] ]KILL RANDOM PEOPLE AND DRINK THEIR BLOOD

Quote[/b] ]Why?
Because it's just so satisfying.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (alman9898 @ Dec. 23 2003,20:02)]Yes, each turn is 6 months or two seasons. I remember seeing 'Summer' on the camp map screenie somewhere near the year.
I would only be certain of that if I had seen "winter" on another camp-map. I was hoping for some more solid proof, because IIRC ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) one of the dev's said that turns would be year-based.


Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]KILL RANDOM PEOPLE AND DRINK THEIR BLOOD

Quote[/b] ]Why?
Because it's just so satisfying.
I shall try it out as soon as I have time.

[alman9898]

Pic (http://www.kgfs.org.uk/images/RTW/16.jpg)

Check it out and you'll notice the little sun next to the year. To me that symbolizes summer.

[Ludens]

Ah, I see.

[bighairyman]

maybe we should have jesus christ in the game. and have him be a rebel general or something in isreal.

what do u guys think. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] ]maybe we should have jesus christ in the game. and have him be a rebel general or something in isreal.

what do u guys think.

I'm undecided concerning this question, as of "is this a very bad idea or extremely poor joke"?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I'm undecided concerning this question, as of "is this a very bad idea or extremely poor joke"?
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Priceless... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[rasoforos]

well if not jesus they can always add Brian , and a pleple's front of Judea suicide squad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[alman9898]

Quote[/b] (bighairyman @ Dec. 29 2003,20:35)]maybe we should have jesus christ in the game. and have him be a rebel general or something in isreal.

what do u guys think. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Jesus would only be 14 when the game ends, mate. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Dec. 30 2003,09:46)]well if not jesus they can always add Brian , and a pleple's front of Judea suicide squad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well, that is a good idea… But then we need the Judean people's front too…

And not to forget the Popular front…

:splitter:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ](rasoforos @ Dec. 30 2003,09:46)
well if not jesus they can always add Brian , and a pleple's front of Judea suicide squad

Well, that is a good idea… But then we need the Judean people's front too…

And not to forget the Popular front…

LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[The_678]

I would like religion in the game, but not so extreme like in MTW where you can't attack people at will due to religion.

[rasoforos]

Quote[/b] (The_678 @ Jan. 07 2004,17:45)]I would like religion in the game, but not so extreme like in MTW where you can't attack people at will due to religion.
Very true. Religion back then was not so bloodthirsty, it should exist , it should maybe modify certain statistics ( like lots of temples of Ares could give war bonuses) , but the effect of the population accepting multiple religions should not be very dramatic.

[The Wizard]

And can we go to the Oracle of Apollo at Delphi to go get stoned? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Nelson]

Romans would not understand the concept of separation of church and state. Religion permeated everything. Not everyone was equally pious of course but gods and spirits were believed to be everywhere. The pater familias was the priest of his own home for example and would lead the family in prayer and sacrifices. Politicians such as senators, consuls and censors were often priests. Caesar was the special priest of Jupiter (the Flamen Dialis) and later Pontifex Maximus (who among other things could order the calendar to be adjusted). After the republic the emperors became the Pontifex Maximus.

Superstition may be the best describe Roman religion today. Consider:

Augures sought divine direction in auspices on many occasions. I suspect that a general who chose to ignore the augures had to be sure the troops didn’t find out.

Temples were used for government business. They were often treasuries. Robbery would therefor become a sacrilege beyond simple theft.

The Vestals were maintained to protect Rome’s own state hearth fire. For it to be extinguished would have been seen as a calamity. The Vestals also protected important documents such as wills.

The flamines were surrounded by all sorts of taboos. The Flamen Dialis for example could not touch iron or witness death. He had to wear a funny hat in public, too These scruples were not a joke and were observed with care.

In short, Romans relied on religion to enforce some very important secular responsibilities.

I would like Rome: Total War to have Romans affected by religious holidays or auguries from time to time. Maybe it could tie in with a piety attribute. It would add a nice touch.