Charge the spears?

[Magraev]

I've read Froggy's excellent unit guide, and one thing really surprised me. The advice to stop your spears (and pikes) ahead of an enemy attack instead of charging them. The argument is, that you get the full rank bonus for your spears from the moment the fight starts.

I tried a few tests last night, but they were inconclusive. Maybe somebody is more patient than I?

Most spear-troops have an excellent charge stat - is that worth more than the rank-bonus for wellordered spearmen or less?

I'd like some oppinions on this - so far I'm inclined to keep charging all troops.

PS: On a side note the advice about dragging your melee troops into a long line workes wonders - do it today And thank you Frogbeastegg for the effort - much appreciated. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[RJV]

Hi Magraev,

My tests on not charging spears have been inconclusive too. I used to charge everything (I get a bit impetuous sometimes), but then I stopped charging the spears against cav, so that I'd get the def bonus - put them right up close and they join the fight anyway. I've not noticed a change particularly for better or worse so some tests by some more patient types would be appreciated

Cheers.

[Magraev]

yep sombody will surely take up the challenge (I hope).

Come on - be a http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/santa.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I've tried both aproaches and I've reached no conclusions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

So, if someone can elaborate more on the pros and cons of each situation, I'll be listening... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

[Coldstream]

Quote[/b] (Magraev @ Dec. 17 2003,05:25)]yep sombody will surely take up the challenge (I hope).

Come on - be a http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/santa.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Be a fat man in a red suit? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I think spears get the bonus for ranks even if they charge, don't they? They just have to be ranked up...

[frogbeastegg]

My guide, better explain its reasoning. Firstly a tiny note, this post contains froggy doing maths and therefore errors are to be expected. You have been warned. Also note that froggy is tired so this may not even make sense. Controvertial area this, I was hoping someone else would do all the hard work and explain the differences and advantages of charging Vs not charging. Oh well, that is life. :reaches for MTW official guide with listing of the bonuses: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif

Right let us take Mr. Average Joe the spear unit, for our purposes a unit of Feudal sergeants with 133 men, valour 0 no upgrades. He has base stats of:
Charge 5 Attack 0 Defence –1 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 2
Now add in the rank bonus, applied evenly across the entire unit as it is in 4 ranks and perfect order:
Charge 7 Attack 1 Defence 1 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 2
Now add the hold formation bonuses/penalties like so:
Charge 7 Attack -1 Defence 3 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 2
There is mention of an extra point to defence when spears are in this setting, taking the stats to:
Charge 7 Attack -1 Defence 4 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 2
Now because this unit is not going to charge anywhere, it is going to stand still and take the charge, you can put it on hold position. This makes the formation much easier to keep dressed, keeping the bonuses at the level above for much longer. When the enemy hit the formation will ripple slightly and then go back to nice, neat, stat boosting ranks and the spearmen take a long time to die. They don't kill that many but what do you expect - they are spears and spears are made (with a couple of exceptions) for standing and not killing. The formation will take significant losses and remain effective for a long time. By the time there are enough casualties to cause effectiveness to really drop the unit will be routing anyway.

Now let's take the same unit with the same valour etc, put them in hold formation and let them charge the enemy. The unit looks like this:
Charge 7 Attack -1 Defence 4 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 2
Firstly you can't really use hold position effectively in this situation so the formation is more likely to be pushed back or disrupted by the enemy. You can try wacking them on hold position the instant the charge hits but it can be a little unpredictable as to what position they will hold. It all depends on what kind of shape your men are in when the order is given - if they are still in a very neat formation then it should be reasonably obvious where they will hold, if they are more spread out or the front line is buckled (happens often, charging units often resemble a curve with the middle further ahead) then it is less obvious. I have also had occasions where the dense idiots in charge of the unit decide that it is a good idea to pivot around and hold position with their flanks to the enemy Surfice it to say it is not a good decision on their behalf and I do not ransom them back.

Secondly, as I have already mentioned, the formation often gets disrupted on the charge and even a tiny disruption affects the bonuses. No neat formation=no bonuses for some men and this affects their fighting capability. Part of the formation will attack with the stats above, others will have the basic stats and this makes them far less effective in battle. They die, the formation slowly depletes and the bonuses start to disaapear across the unit duie to casualties and disruption. This can be countered somewhat by stopping your spears a short distence from the enemy, wating for them to dress their lines and then charging. However you often don't get the full run up so your charge bonus is cut a little short because your men did not get up to full speed. It takes almost 3 seconds of charging to reach full speed and therefore the maximum charge benefit.

Now you know what you risk when charging it is time to work out what you gain. The charge bonus. (gulp, hard maths )

Right the units charge bonus is 7 as long as the man at the front has full rank support, if he doesn't it is 5. For the sake of my brain he has full rank support from now on unless mentioned otherwise This number is added to the attack stat when the unit reaches full charging speed. Therefore a charging spearman gets an attack value of 6 but only for a short time that is dependant on how the charge goes. On impact the spearman makes an attack at 6 against the enemy, if he kills the enemy then he will advance and use his charge bonus. Eventually he will either fail to kill or run out of momentum and the bonus is lost completely. Usually charges seem to last for about 3 dead men at the most. So that is what you gain, now for the detail and this is more fiddly than ever.

As each man charges home he either kills his target and advances deeper into the enemy, fails to kill his target and stays where he is fighting, fails to kill his target and dies, or kills his target and dies. If the man advances he continues to use his charge bonus but the men behind him have to follow him exactly or he will lose his rank bonus, leaving him high and dry. If he fails to kill his target he stays put and is likely to continue recieving his rank bonus. If he dies, well he is dead http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Problem.
If the unit is on hold formation, which it should be as spears really need this setting, then those who kill with their charge cannot advance without breaking this order. Therefore your charge is a bit wasted you one of the main purposes of charging is to get men into the enemy and attack from there. But at the same time if the unit goes impetuous or is not on hold formation then it will break up very quickly, the chagre bonus disspears quickly and there are a lot of men without their neat little rank bonueses. They die unless the enemy rout very quickly indeed.

So spearmen on their best settings are unable to take advanatage of the best bonuses charging provides, on their worst setyting they can take advantage of them but they lose a bit too much in the process.

Now lets look at the kind of chances to kill these spearmen would get against some of their common targets. (Why am I doing this? This is even worse maths I could just leave someone else to do it...tempting ) Yes, that is a good idea - someone can work out the kill chances spears get against targets like feudal knights Have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif I shall do the froggy patented Easy Maths Reasoning© instead.

Look at feudal knights, they have a devestating effect when they charge. Why? 8 charge bonus + 4 attack = 12. Now Chivalric knights get 8 + 5 = 13. Gallowglasses get 8 + 5 = 13. A large number is to be found on all the good charging units. Now look at what the feudal sergeants get - a paltry 6. Crud in comparision. Well what about against swordsmen and their weak charges? Feudal MAA get 3+3=6 which is equally cruddy in comparison but, and this is the critical difference to me, swordsmen never get rank bonuses and they need to break up the enemy formatiion by dispercing inside it. For swordsmen charging is a tool that lets them do their job, unliike charge heavy units it is not their job. Knights=job to charge, swords=job to kill. Spears job is to hold the enemy, nothing more. They are not killers and never will be.

So if it is all about the large numbers why not charge units like Muwahid foot as they get a bigger number? Simple - I already said charge them in the guide That is why they are different to other spears.

So there is what you gain and what you lose and my reasoning behind it all. But to put it how I prefer to explain these things: (ie with no maths or numbers )
When I charge my spears they die faster, lose the rank bonus as they become disordered and don't fullfill their function nearly as well. When I stand and recieve a charge they survive with barely a loss unless they are massively outmatched and they do their job well. Spears are for pinning, someone else does the killing. Just an observation based on my experiences.

Of course it is all a matter of preference - I like to take my people home after the battle, others don't care about losses as long as they win. Fair enough. Someone will probably come along and neatly take this post to pieces now and demonstrate why charging is better. Have fun

There was a good thread on this subject at the .com forums, but the background there makes my eyes hurt. Someone can find and link to it, maybe?

[frogbeastegg]

Oh yes, forgot to add that the swinging factor in favour of standing rather than charging for is is neat little army formations. When you have your spears set up neatly and guarding archers etc then charging them opens up little gaps in your lines and the enemy leak though and harm the units you were trying to protect. Take a look at the Catholic defensive formation in the beginner's guide, now imagine the spearmen moved slightly out of position. Then imagine the archers being cut to pieces by a handful of enemy who got through the gaps. Also morale penatlies for enemy being behind your spears etc. Total disaster and the army crumples very quickly indeed. Leave the spears stood still and you can beat off wave after wave after wave.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Exceptional, frogbeastegg Exceptional http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Now, no one has any doubts... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]I have also had occasions where the dense idiots in charge of the unit decide that it is a good idea to pivot around and hold position with their flanks to the enemy Surfice it to say it is not a good decision on their behalf and I do not ransom them back.
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[RJV]

Hi,

Just read your post Froggy. I'm not so sure you should have simplified it so much though, I get the impression there's a lot more to it than that.....

Cheers

[frogbeastegg]

Yes, it is an extremely complex subject. I kept it simple in the guide for a couple of reasons.
1. It makes it easier for other people to understand, especially beginners and those, like myself, who have absolutely no tolerance/understanding for numbers and maths Even that long explanation has some things missing, for example a run though of how the battle factors are calculated, kill chances etc.
2. I hate working out stuff like this If I don't include it I don't have to work it out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Now I have written all this stuff I might as well include it in the guide, that is as long as it gets the OK from those who are more statistically able. I don't want to include it is I missed something or got half of it wrong.

Of course I am still waiting for one of the supporters of the spear charging school to arrive......I shall play handball until then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] ]Surfice it to say it is not a good decision on their behalf and I do not ransom them back.

How cruel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Remarkable, Lady frogbeastegg, how much of your time and effort you put into this Most certainly far beter answer than the one I was going to give "Yeah, pehaps, it's kinda hard to tell..." I'm just not made for this sensitive sort of operations; when I start pulling off some fancy tactics with two or three of my units, I outflank the target and kill it, and when I look away from there to see what happens on the other side of the front, I see half of my men dead and the other half routed...

Oh, dear... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[LadyAnn]

Annie's take: always take advantage of the charge bonus when it is there.

The following applies to spears:
Technique, when micro-management is possible:
- wait until the right moment to charge back. The right moment means the enemy is at the right distance to prevent losing rank, but far enough to have a good run.
- Then wait at the right moment to cancel charge ( to cancel previous order) and put the unit on hold-position ().
- Use spears at default hold-formation () is always advisible.

It is a matter of preference, as frogbeastegg pointed it out. And each one has his/her own preferences on what to bring to the battlefield, how he/she uses the units, etc.

That have been said, here are some points to consider:

1. Other units different than spears that has high charge bonus (over 5) are knights and some two-hand swords units (such as gallowglass in V1.1, Swabians, etc.) In case of knights, always charge them after a good gallop.

2. Charge bonus and Rank Bonus are not the same. They are independent. Rank Bonus only applies to spears and pikes.

Spear/pikes

+1 def per rank (up to 2 for spear, 4 for pike)
+1 atk per 2 ranks when not charging
+1 atk per rank when charging
No rank bonuses in trees

Charge bonus always apply when charging, regardless of unit type. The above bonus is the rank bonus applies only to spears.

3. The effect of first impact.

The effect of first impact is two folds:
- the more you kill earlier on, the better. Each enemy dead on first seconds won't be there to kill you later. Each enemy killed would bring that unit closer to the lower morale threshhold and increase the chance that unit will run. The spears and the pikes lose out in prolonged combats.
- the effect of pushback also means an extension of the charge bonus cycle and annulate enemy's attack cycle. That means even more kills.

The trick of using spears and pikes are in the "no-pursue" policy. I have seen halberdiers trying to pursue cavalry across the map Needless to say the same cav could later rout the halberdiers (or spears) when they are tired and attacked at the rear.


Alas, there are too many things preventing people to bring spears to battle:

- spears too costly in order to have decent morale. A val2 order foot is too fragile, while a val3 orderfoot costs an arm and a leg.

- spears broke rank too easily, so people are not using the spears in full potential: charging.

Annie

[Magraev]

Very interesting views here, supporting both sides of the argument (grr).

I must admit, that I like charging my whole line at a time. If I didn't charge the spears I'd have to change my whole army setup since I usually emply a mixed line of spears, swords and polearms.

The point is valid though. Even Feudal sergents get some quite decent stats if you put them in the right formation.

Thanks for the replies. And "be a http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/santa.gif meant "give me a gift" ok

[HopAlongBunny]

I feel so alone

I am now and always have been a person who will charge with spears. There are exceptions, but if faced with a melee I will charge into it and "hold position" after the initial bloodshed. I have no stats to prove that this is a good idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif it's just what I normally do.

Note: I play SP, and the AI cavalry does not charge that often; while they waffle in front of me, if the time is right, I charge. One exception is if I have a hill defence with arbs, I'll let the spears sit and just mow down whatever is in front. On attack, they gotta make contact where I want; gives me room to push support on flanks.

Why charge? Best answer I can give is: 'cause http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


ps: thank you frogbeastegg for a good explanation of why I'm wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (HopAlongBunny @ Dec. 18 2003,07:55)]ps: thank you frogbeastegg for a good explanation of why I'm wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
You are not wrong - as long as you are winning your battles with casualty/kill/capture ratios you are happy with then you are doing nothing wrong. Although your comment on the AI's cavalry is a bit baffling, my AI always but always charges and recharges with cavalry until one side routs. That is one reason why charging with spears is too dangerous for my tastes. It certainly makes the Agincourt historical battle interesting

Well now everyone can see both sides of the fence and even get a smidgin of multiplayer oriented tippage for free. And so we can sum this long debate up into this neat little saying: Do what the heck you want, if it works and you are happy with it then so be it. Which is what I wanted to write in the first place but it isn't much on the explanation front

As for time, well when I wrote that I was banished from the Christmas preasant wrapping because my hand was bleeding (some old bag smashed my knuckles with her stupidly large box in town. I hate Christmas shopping ) and for some reason people don't want their presents to arrive covered in blood stained paper http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[RJV]

Blood-stained paper? Only if it contains the enemy general's head.... GAH

Merry Christmas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/santa.gif

[CeeBod]

Interesting discussion - I've always charged my spears in 'cos I felt like I wasn't taking advantage of those high charge values if I didn't - but I do often end up having to charge everything else forward alongside the spears, to avoid the spears getting too isolated - a mass charge is fun at times, but not always the best policy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

I may re-consider now that it seems that not charging them isn't actually losing me as much as I'd thought http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif