Return of the King

[Fairlight]

Saw ROTK last night. The battle scenes are amazing.

When the Riders of Rohan smash into the orc army' and sent them sprawling, I could not help but think Chain rout

On the other hand, the strategies are ultra-simple. The orc army's deploy is poor (rather like what you get handed automatically when attacking on Huge unit size - just a big block of rectangles.

Worse is the total lack of strategy displayed. It's really just big bodies of troops smashing into each other and decaying at once to a chaotic melee.

[Mega Dux Bob]

Certianly nobody in any army in the series ever fought as groups and oddly the movies omitted all the shield walling they did the books. On the other hand the orcs seemed better organised in the movie than I pictured them.

[The_Emperor]

The ultimate lack of strategy Was Aragorn's formation in the final battle... True he expected not to be able to win, but allowing your enemies to flank you even before the battle had begun is just doing half of the work for them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Of course great numbers of troops smashing into each other looks great, too bad they didn't include any strategies or true tactics from ancient warfare.

In my eyes the Siege Battle for Helms Deep in two Towers had more of a 'real' feel about it.

[Suppiluliumas]

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I'm not sure if they included any of this, but I can assure you that there was a good reason that the orcs were taken by surprise at Minas Tirith. First, the muster of the Rohirrim was done secretly at Dunharrow and they moved by mountain paths so that they could not be spied upon. Second, there was a large for of easterlings guarding the road to Minas Tirith and protecting the orc's rear. Thirdly, the Rohirrim were able to obtain guides to lead them through Druadan forest, bypassing the easterling army and leading them to the outer wall at Minas Tirith. Finally, they found that the wall had been torn down by the orcs, allowing them to move thier horses through freely, and charge at dawn. The orcs were intent on assaulting the city, secure in the knowledge that their rear was being protected, and were quite understandably caught ass-backwards in the insuing battle.

As far as Aragorn's tactics at Moranon; I'm not sure that he had any choice. He used the only advantage he had, high ground, and formed two squares, close enough together to support one another. If he had formed a line instead, his position would have been completely untenable once he was enevitably flanked.

[Emp. Conralius]

When you think about it, Sauron had a sound strategy. He mustered a HUGE force numbering over 200,000 Orcs and EVil men. He had whole devisions of Mumakil (those eliphant-like creatures), siege towers, catapults, and a very influencial commander to lead them in the Witch King. He had Easterlings (probably his most powerful and numerous of his human allies) protecting his flanks.

He sent all this to crush an enemy numbering FAR less to even half of his forces. It would appear to be a sound strategy, but there is no real need for strategy when a little magic or supernatural forces can sway the battle in the oppositions favor. i.e.-Army of the Dead, or Gandalf blinding Uruk-Hai Pikemen to the point that they are unable to hold off charging cavalry.

If anyone gets the impression that I'm critisizing Middle Earth, you missed my point. I know the material and am pointing out that in a world dominated by magic, military tactics play a role, but not more than the magic of Middle Earth.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]If anyone gets the impression that I'm critisizing Middle Earth, you missed my point. I know the material and am pointing out that in a world dominated by magic, military tactics play a role, but not more than the magic of Middle Earth.
True, but a tactical advisor would have made this final movie so much better battle-wise. And that would enhance the realism and the whole feel of the movie... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Does anyone know why the Rohirrim like to use shields to protect their knees? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Or why there is no supresive archer fire on the part of Gondorian Army? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

And so much more...

And I'm only speaking battle-wise. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] ]Does anyone know why the Rohirrim like to use shields to protect their knees?

Because they don't kneed them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif


Quote[/b] ]Or why there is no supresive archer fire on the part of Gondorian Army?

Early in the siege, the Gondorian archers were concentrating on the trolls pushing the siege towers. Then the Nazgul showed up making staying on the ramparts a risky proposition. By the time the Rohirrim arrived, the forces of Gondor had been pushed back to the second level of the city. Would the archers have had the range to strike at targets outside the city? I don't know.

A thought: just because something wasn't shown in the movie doesn't mean it didn't happen. Showing surpression fire from Gondorian archers wouldn't have added anything to the magnificent charge of the Rohirrim.

[Mega Dux Bob]

[QUOTE=Quote ]

Does anyone know why the Rohirrim like to use shields to protect their knees? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Hey,at lest they were somewhere to the front of the user, unlike most movie shield work were the shield somewhere behind the user.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Because they don't kneed them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif



Quote[/b] ]Early in the siege, the Gondorian archers were concentrating on the trolls pushing the siege towers. Then the Nazgul showed up making staying on the ramparts a risky proposition. By the time the Rohirrim arrived, the forces of Gondor had been pushed back to the second level of the city. Would the archers have had the range to strike at targets outside the city? I don't know.
Yeah It's more excusable than the Rohirrim's shields...




Quote[/b] ]A thought: just because something wasn't shown in the movie doesn't mean it didn't happen. Showing surpression fire from Gondorian archers wouldn't have added anything to the magnificent charge of the Rohirrim.
Yes, but in the books the Gondorians put up a great fight, and the final result depends strongly on them.
Why wasn't this shown? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
They are all sweeped away... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
Besides, in the book, the enemy never passed trough the 1st wall. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Let's not forget the men of of Prince Imrail of Dol Amroth, of Forlong the Lord of Lossarnach, of Dervorin of Ringló, of Duinhir of Morthond, of Golasgil from Langstrand or of Hirluin of Pinath Gelin...
Where were they in the film? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Hey,at lest they were somewhere to the front of the user, unlike most movie shield work were the shield somewhere behind the user.
No matter, perfection should be everyone's goal. It was Tolkien's goal. Not PJ's.
However, I have to agree that he had the ba**s to tackle this mighty project. I salute him for that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 20 2003,07:57)]However, I have to agree that he had the ba**s to tackle this mighty project. I salute him for that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Oh, come on, Lord Aymar, he only needed enough brains to scratch someone also smart enough to recognize the possible profits of it The rest is, as they say, CGI history http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif


This entire bigger, better, faster, stronger thing George Lucas infected everyone with is slowly turning into a regular nightmare. All those great action scenes, millions of troopers, flashy effects... Oh, man http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Why the people hate the Clone Wars and adore Empire Strikes Back? The ESB had soul, Clones - pun - had none http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif That is a highly contagious disease in the film industry lately

But on the subject; I haven't seen the Return of the King yet, I will so as soon the holidays go by, but I can understand people reacting the way they were while watching the movie I remember when I saw Ridley Scott's Gladiator when Romans fought the German tribes; the scene where Maximus leads his cav to charge at the rear of the enemy.

I thought: Yeah, the Rome's finest general and he leads his cav into thick woods. Talking about penalties

Honestly, this game can have strange effects... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]However, I have to agree that he had the ba**s to tackle this mighty project. I salute him for that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Oh, come on, Lord Aymar, he only needed enough brains to scratch someone also smart enough to recognize the possible profits of it The rest is, as they say, CGI history http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Yes, I know. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
But in the present time, the guys who have the money to produce big-budget movies, are all concentrated in Hollywood and are just little, puny, greedy a**holes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Getting them to stick their necks for something risky or unfilmable, like everyone said about LOTR, is damn hard. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
And although I think PJ sold himself short, by allowing the assassination of certain parts of the books, it was better than nothing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 20 2003,11:59)]And although I think PJ sold himself short, by allowing the assassination of certain parts of the books, it was better than nothing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Yeah, I know the feeling, it's saturday night fever and you're out there, all alone and horny, and after a while even Anne Nicole Smith starts looking tasteful... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, I know the feeling, it's saturday night fever and you're out there, all alone and horny, and after a while even Anne Nicole Smith starts looking tasteful...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ROTFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

That one was PRICELESS... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 20 2003,12:26)]
Quote[/b] ]Yeah, I know the feeling, it's saturday night fever and you're out there, all alone and horny, and after a while even Anne Nicole Smith starts looking tasteful...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ROTFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

That one was PRICELESS... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Stop that, I ain't proud of myself

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I thought: Yeah, the Rome's finest general and he leads his cav into thick woods. Talking about penalties

Honestly, this game can have strange effects...
And that one is quite frequent in me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Gregoshi]

Aymar, I liked Prince Imrail in the book, but he and his cohorts probably fell in the trimming of the story for the movie. In TTT, one of the extras pieces talked about the LOTR books and all the publishing/story rules it broke and yet was still successful. One of the rules it broke was in the large number of characters in the books. Obviously, PJ had to trim that back a lot (Glorfindel becomes Arwen, Bombadil gone, etc.) but still there are a lot of characters for a movie. You risk confusing the audience with too many characters. The original Dune movie came with an audience handout to help them understand all the who?s.

If you think about it, which makes a better and more exciting story? Using the undead army to defeat enemies in southern Gondor so the human forces there can help Minas Tirith, but in doing so, releasing the undead army from its oath (the book)? Or, using the powerful undead army in the most important battle in Gondor - the siege of Minas Tirith (the movie)? This also eliminates the need to introduce yet more characters and groups of combatants. My point is that not all the changes were bad. I think this change was a beneficial and good improvement (aside from removing Prince Imrail).

BTW, you are dead on in the difficulties in bringing the unfilmable LOTR to the screen. The investment of over $300 million was far from a sure bet. To New Line's credit, I can't recall hearing an instant where they stepped in and meddled with PJ and the production team.

I think your term assassination of certain parts is a bit strong. I'm not crazy about all the changes either, but I don't understand how people can put down PJ's dedication to the books/stories when there was so much of them in there. Just look at the detail in the movies - many things of which are never even mentioned in the movies. For example, did anyone notice that in the Grey Haven scene Gandalf was wearing the elven ring of power Narya (with red gem too&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif on his finger? The ring was not mentioned once in the entire movie, so why bother having Gandalf wear it? If PJ and crew didn't care about the books, Gandalf's hand would have no ring. Details such as this show dedication and I've no doubt the script writers agonized over how to adapt the book to movie. I don't necessarily agree with all their choices, but I accept they did the best they could and we have 3 excellent movies as a result that are as true to the story as one can expect.

Okay, I'll put away my soapbox now - Annie Lennox is singing Into the West on my PC and I've got goosebumps. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

At this point, I'll put in a plug for my friend's website (Hindsight2020 here at the Org) which has pages dedicated to listing and categorizing the differences between each book and its corresponding movie. His lists for the first two movies got some international attention when they were discussed on a radio talk show in the UK earlier this year. He just posted his difference for RotK yesterday, but the list will evolve over the next few weeks. I'm currently giving him some feedback on it. Anyway, here is the link to the RotK Differences (http://gary.appenzeller.net/RotKDifferences.html) page. Enjoy

[Glor13]

I from New Zealand and have been to where they have filmed Hobbition, while there there was interesting story about the sort of detail PJ went into. Tolkein wrote of Bag End being on a hill with an oak tree above it. In the intial casting of the site there was no oak tree. So they brough a oak tree from a loacal farmer, cut it in to many pieces, reassembled it above bag end. Then took about the task of putting 200,000 fake oak leaves onto the tree for all of about 2 sec in the film.

PJ put an extreme amount of time into detail given by tolkein however at the end of the day it was only a movie. The trilogy could of been easily 6 movies of 3 hours and stillpeople would of not been happy.

However, in comparsion of helm deep the gondorian did get a little ripped off in their big battle scene and I through the ending was a little dragged out and not to the point.

[Funky Phantom]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Dec. 20 2003,11:47)]I thought: Yeah, the Rome's finest general and he leads his cav into thick woods. Talking about penalties

Honestly, this game can have strange effects... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
If the Roman tactics were like that in reality, they mustve had a whole lot of luck on their side throughout the ages http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]The orc army's deploy is poor (rather like what you get handed automatically when attacking on Huge unit size - just a big block of rectangles.


Yeah, but that is the catch of siege warfare. Orcs werent waiting for Rohirrim and their deploy was appropriate for a pre-gunpowder era siege. Look at Roman sieges. Whole huge ractangular formations charging onto castle walls, either to climb siege ladders or assist the defence of rams. I think that depoy was realistic. Just think in terms of a Roman army breaching the castle defences and charging into the castle and being flanked by a cavalry army that big

As a last resort the piggy orc commander orders a spearmen formation to counter rohirrim, but you need swiss armored pikemen to withstand an irresistable charge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]The ultimate lack of strategy Was Aragorn's formation in the final battle... True he expected not to be able to win, but allowing your enemies to flank you even before the battle had begun is just doing half of the work for them

Were they flanked? I thought that formation was a circle formation, which was actually used in warfare. If you played the Warrior Kings game, that formation is referred as last stand formation, later turned into square formations of the Napoleonic age.


Quote[/b] ]It's really just big bodies of troops smashing into each other and decaying at once to a chaotic melee.

I dont know which era did Tolkien had in mind when writing LOTR but it is certainly not the late medieval times during which Europeans learned that the aim of battle was to win rather than gain valor. That chaotic melee scenes reminded me of early middle ages - late antiquity (I know Romans had tactcs, but that great organisation died with them in the West, but remained within Byzantian army) during which a head on charge meant the survival of the fittest = understand who is worthy or not. I think those battle scenes are realistic if you take into consideration earlier times of history. For example Arthurian battles are very good examples of this. Together with the armor/weapon types and the importance of valor and courage rather than cunningness and sneakiness (meaning tactics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ), those battles fit into reality IMO.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Aymar, I liked Prince Imrail in the book, but he and his cohorts probably fell in the trimming of the story for the movie. In TTT, one of the extras pieces talked about the LOTR books and all the publishing/story rules it broke and yet was still successful. One of the rules it broke was in the large number of characters in the books. Obviously, PJ had to trim that back a lot (Glorfindel becomes Arwen, Bombadil gone, etc.) but still there are a lot of characters for a movie. You risk confusing the audience with too many characters. The original Dune movie came with an audience handout to help them understand all the who?s.
Yes, I know he couldn't put them all. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Glorfindel and Bombadil are justified. They have no influence in future events.
I was just expressing sadness, because those characters really spice up the battle in the book.
Besides, Prince Imrail is one of my favorite characters, although not a main character in the books.

Another thing in the movie:
I think the battle was rushed from the moment the black ships arrived, until the end... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif



Quote[/b] ]If you think about it, which makes a better and more exciting story? Using the undead army to defeat enemies in southern Gondor so the human forces there can help Minas Tirith, but in doing so, releasing the undead army from its oath (the book)? Or, using the powerful undead army in the most important battle in Gondor - the siege of Minas Tirith (the movie)? This also eliminates the need to introduce yet more characters and groups of combatants. My point is that not all the changes were bad. I think this change was a beneficial and good improvement (aside from removing Prince Imrail).
True, but only to have shorter length and faster pacing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
I have much more problems with The Two Towers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif



Quote[/b] ]BTW, you are dead on in the difficulties in bringing the unfilmable LOTR to the screen. The investment of over $300 million was far from a sure bet. To New Line's credit, I can't recall hearing an instant where they stepped in and meddled with PJ and the production team.
Yeap Contrary to most Hollywood movie producers, they had ba**s. It could have backfired on them... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif



Quote[/b] ]I think your term assassination of certain parts is a bit strong. I'm not crazy about all the changes either, but I don't understand how people can put down PJ's dedication to the books/stories when there was so much of them in there. Just look at the detail in the movies - many things of which are never even mentioned in the movies. For example, did anyone notice that in the Grey Haven scene Gandalf was wearing the elven ring of power Narya (with red gem too on his finger? The ring was not mentioned once in the entire movie, so why bother having Gandalf wear it? If PJ and crew didn't care about the books, Gandalf's hand would have no ring. Details such as this show dedication and I've no doubt the script writers agonized over how to adapt the book to movie. I don't necessarily agree with all their choices, but I accept they did the best they could and we have 3 excellent movies as a result that are as true to the story as one can expect.
Yes, the term assassination is a consequence of frustration on my part. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Well, my glitches with the films have nothing to do with attention to detail or on the technical side. PJ & colaborators were spot on in that department. Costumes, photography, small-scale models, compositing, 3D animation, music, matte painting, etc... All perfect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

My grumbling mainly concerns the script:

-Sooooooo childish Spielberg mushiness... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
-Ridiculous Hobbits. They were small, but they weren't children http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif They were adults They should act accordingly.

This was to captivate the very young audience, but I REALLY disagree on this policy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

-So many dialogs were cut. Why? They didn't even need to change them They were perfect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
-The Gimli affair. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Why do you need ridiculous and distastefull comic relief in such a classic?????? His character was a caricature of the book Gimli http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif




Quote[/b] ]I don't necessarily agree with all their choices, but I accept they did the best they could and we have 3 excellent movies as a result that are as true to the story as one can expect.
True, but not excellent. Just good movies.



Quote[/b] ]At this point, I'll put in a plug for my friend's website (Hindsight2020 here at the Org) which has pages dedicated to listing and categorizing the differences between each book and its corresponding movie. His lists for the first two movies got some international attention when they were discussed on a radio talk show in the UK earlier this year. He just posted his difference for RotK yesterday, but the list will evolve over the next few weeks. I'm currently giving him some feedback on it. Anyway, here is the link to the RotK Differences page. Enjoy
Thanks I'll chek it out... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Orcs werent waiting for Rohirrim and their deploy was appropriate for a pre-gunpowder era siege.
Yes, they were
Remember, Sauron knew, through the Palantír, that Saruman's armies had been defeated.
The Oath of Eorl was known to have NEVER been broken by Rohan or Gondor. So, he knew that Rohan would have come to the rescue...
Although, I might agree that, in the movie, that situation is not shown and so is irrelevant.




Quote[/b] ]As a last resort the piggy orc commander orders a spearmen formation to counter rohirrim, but you need swiss armored pikemen to withstand an irresistable charge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif




Quote[/b] ]Were they flanked? I thought that formation was a circle formation, which was actually used in warfare. If you played the Warrior Kings game, that formation is referred as last stand formation, later turned into square formations of the Napoleonic age.
You're right.
Although you must agree that, charging the encircling army with the Magical Words http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif For Frodo, isn't a sensable action. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif



Quote[/b] ]Together with the armor/weapon types and the importance of valor and courage rather than cunningness and sneakiness (meaning tactics ), those battles fit into reality IMO.
Nope. Not enough tactical deployment.
Rohan and specially Gondor, had hundreds of years of experience of continuos warfare.
Remember the books. They were much better in that department. And Tolkien wasn't showing us anything visually. PJ was. He had to perform better than he did.
It's just ignorance on his part and on most viewers that makes it slip through... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[chris]

I agree with the Saurons deployment being quite nice, although they did allow the Rohirrim acces to a clavary charge down a hill (if i remeber is was a hill i think....) and the pink orc dude was an interesting moral booster. i think there are a few reason are why the troop deployment was poor.

1. PJ never played MTW

2. Having troop deploy ment in that scale must be very difficult as a movie director. a very simply shot showing the damage of clavary on orcs in there numbers put the average....not MTW fan audiance in awe.

3. i think the emphasis was on courage, and majical powers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif not on brainwork. brute force against brute force. i liked it, though best movie i have seen in a while

yeah gladiator wasnt hitorically accurate on many things.....but it was still good, like braveheart.

oh and for the ringers who fuss and spit becuz the didnt put all that stuff in the book in the movie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif consider this. ROTK was 3 hours and 30 min. all the stuff people want in there would make it 4 and a haklf to fve hours long. be realistic thats what extended versions are for, or extended extended version....mabey those will be next...lol

[Suppiluliumas]

I've just seen the movie. It was very unimpressive. And in case anyone who has not read the series is wondering, even the battles are drastically different in the movie. What bothers me more though, is the butchering of the story. Depressing stuff really...

[Bezalel]

I didn't think rotk was bad, on the contrary, I thought it was good. But, oh well, I don't wanna' debate about some movie. Does everyone else have the strong urge to play total war after seeing some movie with big battles in it, or is it just me?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]oh and for the ringers who fuss and spit becuz the didnt put all that stuff in the book in the movie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif consider this. ROTK was 3 hours and 30 min. all the stuff people want in there would make it 4 and a haklf to fve hours long.
My problem wasn't with the extensive cuts. Some were really needed to make the film. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
My glitch, as I said before, is with the script.
It REALLY damages the original story changing specific meanings and ideas that adulterate the true story. Some are even contrary to the books... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Example?
Some characters are nothing what they are in the books:

-Gimli
-Faramir
-Denethor

Even the 4 Hobbits are VERY different
How can that be? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif




Quote[/b] ]be realistic thats what extended versions are for, or extended extended version....mabey those will be next...lol
But the extended versions don't repair the mistakes and diferent meanings of the movie scipt... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Welcome to the ORG, Bezalel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Quote[/b] ]I didn't think rotk was bad, on the contrary, I thought it was good.
Good, but not very good, excellent, exceptional or godly... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, they were
Remember, Sauron knew, through the Palantír, that Saruman's armies had been defeated.
The Oath of Eorl was known to have NEVER been broken by Rohan or Gondor. So, he knew that Rohan would have come to the rescue...
Although, I might agree that, in the movie, that situation is not shown and so is irrelevant.


OK, then lets assume the guys were so carried away by the fall of Minas Tirith and they all wanted to charge into the fort without a defensive line to protect their flanks.

What would you expect from an army commanded by a one eyed piggy?


Quote[/b] ]You're right.
Although you must agree that, charging the encircling army with the Magical Words For Frodo, isn't a sensable action.


Charging the encircling army itself isnt sensibe IMO. Purpose of the last stand formation is defence, not offense http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif But you know.. Its da King


Quote[/b] ]Nope. Not enough tactical deployment.
Rohan and specially Gondor, had hundreds of years of experience of continuos warfare.
Remember the books. They were much better in that department. And Tolkien wasn't showing us anything visually. PJ was. He had to perform better than he did.
It's just ignorance on his part and on most viewers that makes it slip through...

I havent read the books. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif But I agree on you comment on PJ. I was shocked when I saw medium cavalry charging into a 700 line spearmen formation at the end of Helms deep siege. Some of my idiot friends tried to rationalize the stupidity by futile But they got Gandalf words, but in the end I agree that PJ knows nothing about warfare. Tho, still these wars reminds me of Arthurian battles.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]What would you expect from an army commanded by a one eyed piggy?
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
But you got to agree that he motivated them a little... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif




Quote[/b] ]Charging the encircling army itself isnt sensibe IMO. Purpose of the last stand formation is defence, not offense.
Exactly my point. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif




Quote[/b] ]But you know.. Its da King
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif




Quote[/b] ]I havent read the books. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Oh, man You should http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
They're sooooo much better than the movies... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif




Quote[/b] ]But I agree on you comment on PJ. I was shocked when I saw medium cavalry charging into a 700 line spearmen formation at the end of Helms deep siege. Some of my idiot friends tried to rationalize the stupidity by futile But they got Gandalf words, but in the end I agree that PJ knows nothing about warfare.
I was shocked and disgusted too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif




Quote[/b] ]Tho, still these wars reminds me of Arthurian battles.
I don't know much about them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Dec. 22 2003,07:57)]...when I saw medium cavalry charging into a 700 line spearmen formation at the end of Helms deep siege. Some of my idiot friends tried to rationalize the stupidity by futile But they got Gandalf words, but in the end I agree that PJ knows nothing about warfare. Tho, still these wars reminds me of Arthurian battles...
Hey there
actually all things around Mankind in middle earth reminds of Arthurian/Camelot style, in the way they were translated in films.
At the Helms deep siege what did you expect from the Rohirians, not to charge? The orcs were slaughtering their brothers/women/children and they would remain idle? Or they should be dismounted?
Altough I didn't read the books too, I heard -from friends who did- that Gandalf had and used magical powers. You can remember that before the charge and from his stick came out a blinding shine that almost blinded ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif ) the uruk hais.
Also was I told that at the ROTK HE first encountered with the Witch King-Nazgul and sended him away from Minas Tirith, so the Nazgul returned to the battlefield in front of the city's walls and attacked Theoden. That scene witch i saw at the trailer was cut from the film.
Anyway what I am trying to say, is that we shouldn't see the battles from OUR point of view http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (tactics I mean) but as they are, even if I was hungry to see a big tactical battle, I was very excited

[Gregoshi]

One thing I get from reading a number of Tolkien's works is that hero types (Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond, etc.) have an unstated mystical aura that enboldens friend and strikes fear in foes. You see the effect numerous times in Tolkien's works.

In Theoden's charge out of Helms Deep in TTT, you wonder why none of those hundreds and thousands of orcs/Uruk Hai didn't just skewer Theoden. They didn't because his fearsome presence (battle fury?) scared the bejeezes out of them. From TTT of Theoden's charge:


Quote[/b] ]On they rode, the King and his companions. Captains and champions fell or fled before them. Their backs were to the swords and spears of the Riders, and their faces to the valley. They cried and wailed, for fear and great wonder had come upon them with the rising of the day.

And of Gandalf's charge to the rescue:


Quote[/b] ]The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with maddness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear.

One thing to remember is that this is fantasy and not all rules of men's behaviour apply. It is reality with a twist.

And for those who've not read the books, read them You won't be sorry. The movie only scratches the surface of the story. And Tolkien's stories go much deeper than any other fiction I've ever read. You know while you are reading it that Middle Earth isn't like a Hollywood set - a real looking building fronts with nothing behind them. No, one paragraph or even one sentence in LotR often has a whole story behind it. It is a thing of beauty.

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Dec. 22 2003,11:24)]And for those who've not read the books, read them You won't be sorry. The movie only scratches the surface of the story. And Tolkien's stories go much deeper than any other fiction I've ever read. You know while you are reading it that Middle Earth isn't like a Hollywood set - a real looking building fronts with nothing behind them. No, one paragraph or even one sentence in LotR often has a whole story behind it. It is a thing of beauty.
Too true,Gregoshi. Jackson’s film adaptation of The Lord of the Rings, however brilliant, is still only an approximation of Tolkien’s genius. The movies have brought the story to millions who did not know it at all and that is a wonderful thing in itself. But everyone who reads at all and loves the films should do themselves a favor and start reading.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Altough I didn't read the books too, I heard -from friends who did- that Gandalf had and used magical powers. You can remember that before the charge and from his stick came out a blinding shine that almost blinded ( ) the uruk hais.
WRONG. Your friends are wrong. Gandalf wasn't allowed to use magic in Middle Earth to ATTACK anyone. The Valar didn't allowed the Ishtari to do that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif




Quote[/b] ]Also was I told that at the ROTK HE first encountered with the Witch King-Nazgul and sended him away from Minas Tirith
WRONG again. The Witch King retreated due to the Rohirrim attack... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif




Quote[/b] ]One thing I get from reading a number of Tolkien's works is that hero types (Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond, etc.) have an unstated mystical aura that enboldens friend and strikes fear in foes. You see the effect numerous times in Tolkien's works.
True. Although that might be interpreted as the charisma of someone VERY noble.




Quote[/b] ]And for those who've not read the books, read them You won't be sorry. The movie only scratches the surface of the story. And Tolkien's stories go much deeper than any other fiction I've ever read. You know while you are reading it that Middle Earth isn't like a Hollywood set - a real looking building fronts with nothing behind them. No, one paragraph or even one sentence in LotR often has a whole story behind it. It is a thing of beauty.
Couldn't have said it better. Absolutelly TRUE... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif




Quote[/b] ]Jackson’s film adaptation of The Lord of the Rings, however brilliant, is still only an approximation of Tolkien’s genius. The movies have brought the story to millions who did not know it at all and that is a wonderful thing in itself. But everyone who reads at all and loves the films should do themselves a favor and start reading.
Preciselly. Very good point. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 22 2003,19:23)]
Quote[/b] ]Also was I told that at the ROTK HE first encountered with the Witch King-Nazgul and sended him away from Minas Tirith
WRONG again. The Witch King retreated due to the Rohirrim attack... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif
Okay dont bite me...
Did you see the trailer? I thought I saw that the Nazgul was chasing Gandalf, right. Also The Witch King said (after question of the Orc general -that filthy some of one eyed piggy-) that he would crash the White Rider. So I guessed that my friends was right and Gandalf using some kind of witchcraft sended the Nazgul away from Minas Tirith.

About the reading thing....should I try in the English languadge or in Greek would work too?

[Kekvit Irae]

I did not read the books, and have no desire to. However, I enjoyed the movies greatly

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Okay dont bite me...
I'm not trying to. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I'm just saying that in the TRUE story (the books), those things do not happen. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

But in PJ's world, he evens sees it fit for Gandalf to beat up the ruler of Gondor... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
And those intentional alterations are quite sad. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif



Quote[/b] ]Did you see the trailer? I thought I saw that the Nazgul was chasing Gandalf, right. Also The Witch King said (after question of the Orc general -that filthy some of one eyed piggy-) that he would crash the White Rider. So I guessed that my friends was right and Gandalf using some kind of witchcraft sended the Nazgul away from Minas Tirith.

As I was saying I'm talking about the TRUE story (the books), not the adaptations... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif




Quote[/b] ]About the reading thing....should I try in the English languadge or in Greek would work too?
That really only depends in your hability in understanding a more formal and ancient form of english.
I bought the English versions after reading them in Portuguese, because I found it to be more envolving and beautifull in the original.
After all, the books were written by an Ancient English Professor. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Paxx]

Then I'll have to use a 4th book...a dictionary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[rasoforos]

i think you should read the english version if you are ok with english , its not very complicated . The greek language with its vocabulary wealth has no match when reading descriptive books and its much better to read some writers like umberto eco in greek than english. However when reading writers like tolkien or frank herbert i think that the translation removes a lot of the atmosphaire and makes the mookes a less enjoyable text.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Then I'll have to use a 4th book...a dictionary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif




Quote[/b] ]i think you should read the english version if you are ok with english , its not very complicated . The greek language with its vocabulary wealth has no match when reading descriptive books and its much better to read some writers like umberto eco in greek than english. However when reading writers like tolkien or frank herbert i think that the translation removes a lot of the atmosphaire and makes the mookes a less enjoyable text.
rasoforos is quite right. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
It's really not that hard.
And I agree that most authors, specially poets or writters with an elaborated prose, must be read in THEIR OWN language.
If not, the experience is not quite the intended one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif