Spicing up the game!?

[PseRamesses]

Beside the fact that I think this game rocks I sometimes want some more realism out of it. I know that MTW is not designed to all to historically correct in it´s game progress but I really think that GA should be hacked (if it´s possible).

I´d like to see the Danish to be really interested in taking Swe and Nor. I´d like to see the Russians more keen on conquering the steppes rather than sitting in Novgorod playing cards. I´d like to see the Eng and Fre getting entangled in the 100y war more often. I´d like to see the Byz putting up more of a fight against the Egy.

I don´t like to see the Fre reducing the Eng to rubble and turbo-conquering half of Europe. I don´t like to see the HRE collapsing, in EVERY game. I don´t like to see the Alm taking out the Spa and moving into France. I don´t like to see the Egy conquering everything up to Austria-Hungary-Moldavia. I don´t like to see an empire building fast just to collapse 50y later in EVERY game.

I´m not good at modding but I know YOU guys are Can´t we make this game even better? Please share your thoughts. Thanks and happy holidays

[Phatose]

There are, I'm pretty sure, several mods out there to address exactly the issue you've described. While I don't know them by name (I'm into this game more for the battles which requires actual strategy vs other rts then for the history), I believe there are at least two out there which address these concerns. I -think- medmod is one of those, but I could be mistaken. I remember reading about one which uses a 'homelands' concept to make huge empire building very difficult, and another which attempts to recreate the feudal system through penalties attached to unit-producing buildings.

I'll bet either the authors of the mods that do what you'd like will respond sooner or later, or one of the more historically inclined players around here will know exactly which ones you want.

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ Dec. 20 2003,05:58)]I don´t like to see the HRE collapsing, in EVERY game. I don´t like to see the Alm taking out the Spa and moving into France. I don´t like to see the Egy conquering everything up to Austria-Hungary-Moldavia. I don´t like to see an empire building fast just to collapse 50y later in EVERY game.
Me neither

The pretty side to this game is the fact that it's really easy to mod; for most of the changes you can simply tweak the text files, more complicated it gets when you come to graphics and creating/altering the existing units and buildings, but it all can be done. Be patient, you'll get around to it

As for adjusting the game the way you want it, some things may be not possible, since they are hardcoded, but many things can be changed to your hearts content The HRE has it difficult? Well, boost the income of their provinces, give them extra troops, bulid higher level castles in their core provinces. Start for yourself, change some minor things and see how it works, but always back up the files you are changing.

I myself I'm not such a good moder in comparison with the older ladies and lords here, and I mostly hesitate to ask any questions because most of them have been asked and answered, check the records Look up the dungeon, there is a lot to learn and discover http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

If you want to read about changing the GA, check this thread at the Dungeons (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=11578)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I might ad:

-MedMOD by WesW (homelands concept, more unique units allround, very balanced AI-wise and very hard to perform empire building, some historical units alterations).

-SuperMedieval by BKB (more than 20 playable factions, very balanced, much harder to expand, greater possibility of rebellions, new historical unique units, still in BETA testing).

-Berengario's MOD (personal project, dont know if he will release it to everybody, implementation of feudal system buildings and units, very historically correct, very balanced, harder).

-Norseman's MOD (again, personal project, dont know if he will release it to everybody, implementation of feudal system buildings and units, very historically correct, simplification of the tech tree, balanced, harder).

For more information check The Dungeon--->Alchemist Lab.

Hope it helps... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[torsoboy]

If there is anything I wished for, it would be that the computer decides to give up land way too easily when confronted with invasion. It's no fun if huge armies of inferior quality just take over huge swaths of land without having to fight. It's also helped by the fact that armies can generally expect to last only a few years before losing the siege.

To counter this, I would propose the following:
The defending party should still be able to train troops while besieged. This will force the attacker to act faster.

Alternatively, the siege should take way way longer, something like five years at minimum, with rebellion becoming more likely as the siege progresses.

I also propose that the AI should not shun fights like it does now.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 20 2003,07:25)]Hope it helps... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Thanks for the tip
I knew about Norseman´s project. I DL WesMod but it didn´t install correctly. I´m hoping that Wes will help me with that.
Although I´d love to do some modding myself (I actually deleted the LB between Flanders/ Wessex, changed Papacy into playable etc) but I really don´t have the time. So my only hope is that some modders pick up at least some of my ideas and implement them into a mod.
Take care

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (torsoboy @ Dec. 20 2003,12:33)]To counter this, I would propose the following:
The defending party should still be able to train troops while besieged. This will force the attacker to act faster.

Alternatively, the siege should take way way longer, something like five years at minimum, with rebellion becoming more likely as the siege progresses.

I also propose that the AI should not shun fights like it does now.
I absolutely agree with u on theese ideas. It´s boring just shufflin´ an opponents smaller army in front of my own all the time.
This caused me to actually change my tactic. Now, I never attack with an larger army than the AI. It´s way more fun now - try it

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Thanks for the tip
Anytime http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif



Quote[/b] ]I DL WesMod but it didn´t install correctly. I´m hoping that Wes will help me with that.
Just ask him, in his MOD thread, in the Alchemist Lab... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



Quote[/b] ]but I really don´t have the time. So my only hope is that some modders pick up at least some of my ideas and implement them into a mod.
Yeah Me too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (torsoboy @ Dec. 20 2003,19:33)]If there is anything I wished for, it would be that the computer decides to give up land way too easily when confronted with invasion. It's no fun if huge armies of inferior quality just take over huge swaths of land without having to fight.
I agree. That's why I always prefer to fight with small but crack armies. Never mind how many peasant he has, my elite troops while make them soil their pants before contact, after which they will leave for clean trousers.

Sun Tzu may have said that the greatest battles were those in which no blood was shed, but who were still a victory, but this is only true up to a point (which Sun Tzu probably damn well understood), but you have to fight at some point. And than it is better to take them in small chuncks then all at once. It that case you'd better use a small force as not to scare them into retreating, and good quality soldiers, to beat them up.

But I don't see the point in training during siege. It isn't realistic anyway:
1. Where should they get the men? You cannot train the kitchenpersonel of castle.
2. Training more men would only make the castle fall FASTER, since the supplies would run out quicker.

[torsoboy]

Ok, assume the following scenario:

Faction A has 3 provinces, and Faction B also has 3 provinces. They both share one border with one another. Faction A attacks Faction B in one province, with numerical superiority. Faction B of course retreats to garrison. If Faction B does not retake the province next turn, Faction A has 3 provinces to train troops while Faction B has only 2.

The logical outcome of this is that Faction A's numerical superiority will become greater and greater and there is nothing Faction B can do to stop it, short of building better quality troops. The fact that a lot of building facilities are damaged or destroyed at conquest/reconquest really does not help to alleviate this problem.

The best way to win this game is therefore to attack before you are attacked yourself, which is the reason why there can be NO real diplomacy in this game.

This is why I propose that the besieged should still be able to train (or at least retrain) units - it gives them a fighting chance.

[Re Berengario I]

Quote[/b] ]Berengario's MOD (personal project, dont know if he will release it to everybody, implementation of feudal system buildings and units, very historically correct, very balanced, harder).

I hope to release it to everybody sooner or later. Right now I'm in a beta version with a lot of work still to do (mainly new descriptions of buildings) which is needed for the player to understand the new tech tree and units.

I prepared a zip file for download but it's pretty huge because my mod have a custom map reflcting some changes to the provinces. I'm waiting for an answer about uploading the beta to the Org, otherway I'll have to find some place to host a 40-50 mb file.

Anyway if you want to ask me some advices how to change your personal game, feel free to do it.

I reccomend you to read all the dungeons thread though as I learned quickly most of the modding possibilities through the post of many experienced modders (more experienced than me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif).

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Dec. 20 2003,16:01)]But I don't see the point in training during siege. It isn't realistic anyway:
1. Where should they get the men? You cannot train the kitchenpersonel of castle.
2. Training more men would only make the castle fall FASTER, since the supplies would run out quicker.
1. In history, when a region is attacked/ invaded, people sought refuge to the castle or fortified city so you will actually have more people to draw conscripts from. Since sieges lasts several years I don´t see why you couldn´t train toops meanwhile.
2. Yes, I agree that supplies will run out faster BUT the larger castle the larger supply storage facilities right? I think that this is already a fact within the game since you and the defender loose troops every turn right?

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ Dec. 21 2003,14:02)]2. Yes, I agree that supplies will run out faster BUT the larger castle the larger supply storage facilities right? I think that this is already a fact within the game since you and the defender loose troops every turn right?
You AND the defender lose men? Either you make a mistake, or STW uses a different siege model then MTW. In that case I'd beter say nothing about technical aspect, since I know nothing about it. (STW castle battles are also less exciting due to lack of siege weapons (you can just charge through the open gate) and immobile castle defences)

But anyway, there is a difference between training soldiers and recruiting peasants. If the castle could still add some cannonfodder to it's ranks, this would not be unrealistic, but you cannot expect the to train real soldiers, let alone knights, in a cramped space.
Secondly, yes, people fled to the castle, but the soldiers did not have to let them in. If the castle was small, and had short supplies, to only the peasants who brought supplies with them were allowed to enter, especially if the expected a siege. Anyway, you can't expect a castle to hold the population of an entire province. At the end of the siege, the whole province would be empty. Peasant WERE allowed to enter cities with walls, but that is something different.
The whole idea behind castles is: 1. make defensive battles easier and because of that 2. stall the oponent. He couldn't just leave the province after beating the defender, he had to take the castle first. That is why so many medieval wars bogged down in front of castle walls, and that is why Sun Tzu advocated against attacking these targets.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Dec. 21 2003,07:59)]
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ Dec. 21 2003,14:02)]2. Yes, I agree that supplies will run out faster BUT the larger castle the larger supply storage facilities right? I think that this is already a fact within the game since you and the defender loose troops every turn right?
You AND the defender lose men? Either you make a mistake, or STW uses a different siege model then MTW. In that case I'd beter say nothing about technical aspect, since I know nothing about it. (STW castle battles are also less exciting due to lack of siege weapons (you can just charge through the open gate) and immobile castle defences)

But anyway, there is a difference between training soldiers and recruiting peasants. If the castle could still add some cannonfodder to it's ranks, this would not be unrealistic, but you cannot expect the to train real soldiers, let alone knights, in a cramped space.
Secondly, yes, people fled to the castle, but the soldiers did not have to let them in. If the castle was small, and had short supplies, to only the peasants who brought supplies with them were allowed to enter, especially if the expected a siege. Anyway, you can't expect a castle to hold the population of an entire province. At the end of the siege, the whole province would be empty. Peasant WERE allowed to enter cities with walls, but that is something different.
The whole idea behind castles is: 1. make defensive battles easier and because of that 2. stall the oponent. He couldn't just leave the province after beating the defender, he had to take the castle first. That is why so many medieval wars bogged down in front of castle walls, and that is why Sun Tzu advocated against attacking these targets.
In MTW, during a siege, you will get a siege report every year and you DO loose men.

When I said that the population of a province saught refuge I didn´t mean the WHOLE population.
I also didn´t mean to be able to train knights during a siege BUT I did mean is that archers, peasants, spear, lihter infantry and cavalry should be traiable. Remember that the siege takes at least 1 year in some cases 10 years. Don´t you think that you would be pretty good with the sword, or the bow, if you were training for 10 years?
I think it´s good that MTW implements this battle fature so that it´s more like medieval times I just want some more realism.

[Ludens]

My sieges don't last 10 years. In STW each turn is 1 SEASON, not 1 year. A small castle with 2 units garrison (2*60 men) will take 3 seasons to fall. A siege of ten year is ridiculous. There is only one example of, and that one is mythical: Troy.

Perhaps a lot of these problems could be solved by 2 changes: shorter turns (seasons or half-years) and better AI. But this is probably out of the power of modders.
Since this discussion is going way out of my grasp, I have nothing further to add. Good luck sieging whatever castle may stand in your way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif .

[torsoboy]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Dec. 21 2003,17:11)]My sieges don't last 10 years. In STW each turn is 1 SEASON, not 1 year. A small castle with 2 units garrison (2*60 men) will take 3 seasons to fall. A siege of ten year is ridiculous. There is only one example of, and that one is mythical: Troy.

Perhaps a lot of these problems could be solved by 2 changes: shorter turns (seasons or half-years) and better AI. But this is probably out of the power of modders.
Since this discussion is going way out of my grasp, I have nothing further to add. Good luck sieging whatever castle may stand in your way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif .
I'm aware of the differences between STW and MTW, but did not try to include STW in my suggestions. Yes, in MTW turns are defined in years instead of seasons, and in MTW, a whole province can be securely garrisoned by a hundred men

Also, when some defenders run back to the castle, the attacker sets up a police watch over THE WHOLE PROVINCE to ensure nobody pays taxes, builds anything or train. Time just stops for everybody while those foreigners are there. You'd think that those attackers would need all help they can to whittle down the brave and besieged, but no instead they just put the smack down on the local inhabitants to make sure they do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Also, when London is besieged, everyone in Wessex just sit on their asses and wait out the siege, because that is you know, realistic.

[chris]

you can change a factions personality shall we say, be going into the startpos files, and changing......say novgorod to orthodox expantionist for example.....the list of personalities are above the list of factions and personalities.....just back up your files and change one faction at a time

[LestaT]

Have anyone played historics campaigns and succeded ? I've finished my campaigns many times over but never in historical battles because my scottish rebels always routed easily during easier stages of battle.

Can anyone advice ?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[tombom]

Quote[/b] (LestaT @ June 26 2004,11:27)]Have anyone played historics campaigns and succeded ? I've finished my campaigns many times over but never in historical battles because my scottish rebels always routed easily during easier stages of battle.

Can anyone advice ?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
That makes three bumped old posts. LestaT, are you in the right thread?

[Papewaio]

Don't think of the castles as a single entity... they are a chain of castles... nor think of the ships as a single one.

The battles are your troops you can mobilise not spread out garrisons that police the people...

[Inuyasha12]

That's the whole idea behind modding

That's why we mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[smoogs]

I've been monkeying around with my own mod just for the purpose stated. I got sick of several of the factions just doing nothing at all.

I've tweaked Aragon, Danes, and Novgrod. As well as changed the faction behavior of all factions to expansionist, which in turn seems to make them a lot more aggressive.

Novgrod does indeed take the steppes with what I've done. They usually become a force to be reckoned with. Also, the Danes normally now take Sweden and Norway, and even attack either the HRE or parts of England. Even the Aragonese expand and sometimes become a mighty empire.

The problem with the Danes, Aragons, and the Novgrods was they were bankrupting themselves. Since they started out with a single, low income province, they couldn't support their units. And without enough money to support an army, they would just stagnate.

I've also changed archers so that they are just slightly stronger. I've used frogeggbeast's (least I hope I spelled his/her name correctly) archer stat modifications.

I'm still in the early stages of tweaking the mod. In a few days, if you are interested I'll email you the modded files.

I really enjoy how M:TW-VI is now, but I thought there were a few small changes needed. I'm going to try implementing those changes and then make my mod available for download as soon as I'm finished.

[Inuyasha12]

How about if you give aragon,danes and novgorod more money.
You can do it in the startpost file.

That should help with the funding of their armies

[smoogs]

I did just that, gave them a means of making more money. I gave them the second farms, a tier one merchant, and changed around their tradable goods.

[Inuyasha12]

Well, did it work?
Were they more effective in taking the rus/steppe?