Hoplites in TC

[Acronym]

After watching a couple videos of time commanders, I was impressed. But one thing I dislike is how the hoplites fight.
Instead of charging into the enemy in a brute force push/shove fassion, they briefly stop, the start spearing the enemy. Ancient sources describe greek hoplite(sparta, thebes, athens) battles as each army litterally clashing into eachother, engaging in "push" warfare. The spartans in TC seem to fight like Macedonian phalanx's.

The game still looks sweet, but wouldn't it be cool to see hoplite armies just running right into eachother as history indicates?

[Basileus]

That would be sweet to see, but i doubt we will see the hoplites fight that way..

[The Wizard]

The spartan spears were suprisingly pike-like... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Ancient are sometimes notorious for poetic license, no doubt crashing into one another is dramatic.

From the impression that I got from a lot of books, Hoplites in Phalanx formation often played a waiting game trying to expose a weakness to capitalise on.

bzzzzzzzzzt....

[rasoforos]

well they were crashing into eachother. Thats a reason the spears would break quite fast. The shock value of the attack was very important in ancient greek warfare ( marathon) . I m sure they ll fix it , propably they are using a defence animation for both sides right now...

[kataphraktoi]

Which TC episode did u guys watch?

I downloaded the Raphia one after...30 hrs :P

The hoppies were just amazing, the meat grinder battle between phalanxes was breathtaking.

Bzzzzzt......

[rasoforos]

i ve seen all the episodes. many times the phallanx just charges and then stops before contact and they play 'poke eachother with a spear' . The computer does that all the time...

[Ashen]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Dec. 26 2003,05:37)]well they were crashing into eachother. Thats a reason the spears would break quite fast. The shock value of the attack was very important in ancient greek warfare ( marathon) . I m sure they ll fix it , propably they are using a defence animation for both sides right now...
Correct me if im wrong here, but wasn't Marathon a city state? and didn't the term "Marathon" come from when a messenger ran 26 miles and a bit non stop to warn them of a hostile army on the way?

At least, I think thats it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[rasoforos]

Quote[/b] (Ashen @ Dec. 26 2003,09:15)]
Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Dec. 26 2003,05:37)]well they were crashing into eachother. Thats a reason the spears would break quite fast. The shock value of the attack was very important in ancient greek warfare ( marathon) . I m sure they ll fix it , propably they are using a defence animation for both sides right now...
Correct me if im wrong here, but wasn't Marathon a city state? and didn't the term "Marathon" come from when a messenger ran 26 miles and a bit non stop to warn them of a hostile army on the way?

At least, I think thats it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
marathon was not a city state , it was a place near a lake where the greeks (mostly athenians) repelled the persian invasion. The strategem was to keep a weak centre and strong sides and charge towards the enemy to prevent losses from arrows. The strategem succeded since it nullified the persian arrow supremacy and enveloped their army thus resulting in a decisive victory.
To tell the athenians that the army won and to warn them that a surprise persian attack by sea might be possible a soldier named fidipides has discatched , he run armored the distance between marathon and athens to warn the athenians and died from exhaustion after delivering his message.
To his honour and selflessnes the marathon is run today. The classical marathon ( the one from marathon to athens can be seen in the olympics in athens next year.

[Math Mathonwy]

yeah i agree, they did smash into each other, not to mention the fact that in real life hoplites overlapped their shields in a continuos sheild wall, and thrust over hand with their spears. they did this until the Macedonians came along with their pike welding Phalanx. spearpoke war looks sorta pathetic to those of us who no the real hoplite style of warfare.

[Leet Eriksson]

I thought hoplites used sarrisas(pikes)or was that the macedonians?

[rasoforos]

the sarrissa has a 6 meter long pike used by the macedonian army. the southern greeks were using spears far shorted than the sarrissa ( i think about 3 meters) Ahh...where is rosacrux when you need him? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Didn't the Greeks use a Xyton or something????????

Rasoforos,

Quote[/b] ]i ve seen all the episodes. many times the phallanx just charges and then stops before contact and they play 'poke eachother with a spear' . The computer does that all the time...

like MTW is it possible to make Hoplites crash into each other by not charging at the unit (double click enemy unit) but running towards space behind then enemy unit ur trying to crash into with the enemy unit in the sites of the hoplites?

I still assume the controls are still similar in RTW.

Either way, its all cool. Only 6 months till the Northern Hemisphere Fall release, if only it was southern hemisphere Fall, then I'd have my hands on RTW in 2nd quarter of 2004.

Since u've seen all the episodes, tell me what Tigranocerta was like????

Bzzzt......

[Math Mathonwy]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Dec. 26 2003,19:09)]the sarrissa has a 6 meter long pike used by the macedonian army. the southern greeks were using spears far shorted than the sarrissa ( i think about 3 meters) Ahh...where is rosacrux when you need him? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
the sarrisa were usualle about 22 ft. and the traditional hoplite spear was usualle 10ft.

[rasoforos]

Quote[/b] (Pyrrhus @ Dec. 26 2003,22:51)]
Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Dec. 26 2003,19:09)]the sarrissa has a 6 meter long pike used by the macedonian army. the southern greeks were using spears far shorted than the sarrissa ( i think about 3 meters) Ahh...where is rosacrux when you need him? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
the sarrisa were usualle about 22 ft. and the traditional hoplite spear was usualle 10ft.
well 18 ft ...22ft ... its not the size of your sarissa that counts , its the way you wield it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Math Mathonwy]

lol do you mean "wield" it?

[rasoforos]

yep , corrected , too much financial economics play nasty tricks to a poor guys brain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Dec. 26 2003,19:09)]the sarrissa has a 6 meter long pike used by the macedonian army. the southern greeks were using spears far shorted than the sarrissa ( i think about 3 meters) Ahh...where is rosacrux when you need him? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Spending some time away from any 'puter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

OK, some data on the subject in hand:

Hoplite spear (Greek: Dory): Appr. 2 - 2 1/2 meters long (that should be about 7-8 feet).

Macedonian pike (Greek: Sarissa): Appr. 5 - 6 1/2 meters long (That would be about 17 to 22 feet or something close).

Cavalry spear (Greek: Xyston): Lighter but longer dory in use by the medium and heavy cavalry of the Greek world. - appr. 3 meters long (10 1/2 feet, no?)

In case someone was wondering, the Ifikratian dory was actually a pike (4-5 meters long) and not a spear.

And as the way the hoplite phalanx fought... well, that's pretty much a mystery even now for most people studying the ancient Greek warfare.

Marathon and the charge is rather the exception than the norm - usually when phalanxes clashed there wasn't much need to run (absence of massive quality archers).

We do know that some armies (those of Sparta and all Pelloponessians to an extent) marched to battle slowly and would never and under no circumstances brake the formation.

I don't really have time to write down how the current historians depict the hoplite battle, but reading the descriptions of the battles in TCs, it's suffice to say even though the "poking" thing can be identified with one of the phases of the hoplite battle (the one called "doratismos" - spearing) I can't recognize the most crucial phase, the "othismos" - pushing.

[Kraxis]

Rosa, what about Xenophon's description of the Greek charge at Cunaxa? Or his description of the very fightening mock-charge performed at Cyrus' command while entertaining the Persian nobles? Later it also seems like the Greeks charge in the mountains and in the pursuit of the Persian horse archers.

Those seem to quite heavily lean towards a running charge... An ordered and rather slow run, but a run nonetheless. You don't have to break ranks to run, you just can't run very fast. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif This you learn very effectively if you have been drilled in a military fashion. Granted they didn't walk in step, or so it seems, despite the natural urge to do it (Spartans seems to have been the only ones that did march in step), but I have been drilled in running in rank out of step (crossing bridges fast for instance). Not that hard to do, but the pace would at most be somewhat above jogging.

[Rosacrux]

Oh, well, Kraxis... seems I didn't make myself clear. I was referring to phalanx vs phalanx battles, not when hoplites engaged with different troop types.

According to the vast majority of military historians, Phalanx vs Phalanx, Hoplite vs Hoplite, Aspis vs Aspis... it was a slow game, with tight phalanxes approaching eachother covered by the synaspismos and under the marching tune provided by the avlites (flute-ists?). Then they would start to poke eachother (doratismos) while at the same time they tried to push their opponent off balance (othismos) in an effort to break the phalanx. The first phalanx to break would lose the battle and take the greater casualties - and the casualty rate in an all-hoplite battle was pretty low (usually 2-5% for the winner and 5-15% for the losing side).

When they had to fight non-hoplite armies (especially the heavy-on-missile troops eastern armies) they adopted tactics that could counter the opposing army.

Of course we shouldn't forget the hoplites dromos (competition held in the Olympics - a running event where the contestants had to compete carrying an aspis-hoplon) - shows something about the hoplite charging, doesn't it?

The way most military historians depict the hoplite battles seems extremely static and probably is not the (whole?) truth... but that's how they face it.

P.S. I have had military training myself (albeit 16 or 17 years ago http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ) and I don't think we could hold our ranks running around carrying a large hoplon with the left hand and a 2 1/2 meter spear with the right hand... but again I might be mistaken... never actually tried it out. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Dec. 31 2003,01:20)]P.S. I have had military training myself (albeit 16 or 17 years ago http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ) and I don't think we could hold our ranks running around carrying a large hoplon with the left hand and a 2 1/2 meter spear with the right hand... but again I might be mistaken... never actually tried it out. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Well, neither would I, or any of my fellows from back then, be able to, but then again we weren't drilled for that were we?

The Greeks put a lot of emphasis on drilling, so as to keep ranks rather than training with the weapons themselves (using a spear is rather easy). So it must be expected that they were welldrilled... especially the Spartans.

Still I wonder how the Athenians came to the conclusion that a charge at Marathon was in right order if they hadn't been doing that before. What I have read is that they were not even under fire when they started their run.
I mean, they hadn't really fought the Persians before (yes a few men had fought for the Ionians), and the general idea was not to charge. So the Athenian hoplites could hardly have been trained in running in ranks as that had never been demanded of them in battle.

[DemonArchangel]

Hoplites usually ran into each other at about 5 miles an hour combined top speed.

[Sir Moody]

ill try to get him to post here but Kominos has the anwser (hes the one making the Hellenic Total War mod)

he said a while back that normally hoplites would not charge at full speed into each other - they would charge at 3/4 - this is taken from greek Training accounts - the Spartans were renowned for not charging at all the would march at the same speed and just keep on marching

Later before the major war with the persians the Athean's started experimenting with charging at full speed - by the time of RTW this had been adopted by all but sparta (disincluding the pikes) so the normal spear Hoplites would charge at full by RTW

[Rosacrux]

Well, if we go for maximum possible accuracy, by the time of RTW, there were no hoplites at all. Zip. Zero. Finito.

Hoplites were abandoned during the end of the fourth century BC, under the heavy influence of the Macedonian phalanx - the bulk of the southern city states army was reequipped in the way Philipos perceived for his army, with the long sarissa.

Sparta and a couple other city-states held on to the old tradition, but their armies were extremely small (by the late 3rd century Sparta had declined and could field less than 1500 hoplites...) and in the rest of the Greek world pike-bearers, lots of variations of light infantry (peltast offspring) and legionairre imitations("thireoforoi") would replace the once all-hoplite armies.

And, no, I do not think hoplite phalanxes fighting eachother would ever charge at top speed or at 3/4. The only examples we have (phalanxes charging) is when they fight Persian armies.

And to backup historical accounts with reason, the strength of the phalanx was exactly that it was a tight formation, which created a wall of shields ("synaspismos"). Holding ranks to maintain that wall at top speed or 3/4 speed is simply impossible. Why would any general neglect the very strength of the phalanx? To create some sort of shock-value? But hoplites were never shock infantry, not by far.

[Herodotus]

I was under the impression that a hoplite charge was very similar to a rugby scrum. It was not high speed that mattered but a combined effort of forward motion.

[Sir Moody]

Rosacrux you are completely correct about the makeup of RTW age Greece there would be very few non pike units that could be considered Hoplites but you are wrong about the speed

think about it this way an Athenean would train for 2 years and then serve on the City Guard for a futher 2 years before becoming a hoplite - when i said 3/4 speed imagine it like this - faster than marching slower than running ie Jogging
it wouldnt be too far of a stretch to imagine well diciplined Hoplites who have drilled for a long time to be able to maintain formation while jogging into the enemy

as for full speed the Atheneans did develop a full speed hoplite charge for Hoplite V Hoplite battles - the line would crash into the the front line of the enemy hoplites disrupting the enemy formation and i believe it was taken up by some other Greek states but as with all of what we have heard we dont know as records are scarce there are some records of Hoplite V Hoplite battles which describe a charge and then again there are others that describe a stead march - it really is all Guess work

[Ludens]

What has puzzled me about the phalanx is the way they hold their spears. In TC you see the spears 'overlap'. This is just a graphical quirk, but it made me wonder how a real phalanx would use its spears.
There is only a limited space between a man and his neighbour's shield, and 5 spears had to pass through that This would severely restrict the movements you could make with that spear, even if it were possible. Does anyone know how a phalanx held its spears? Have they tried to recreate one?

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]What has puzzled me about the phalanx is the way they hold their spears. In TC you see the spears 'overlap'. This is just a graphical quirk, but it made me wonder how a real phalanx would use its spears.
There is only a limited space between a man and his neighbour's shield, and 5 spears had to pass through that This would severely restrict the movements you could make with that spear, even if it were possible. Does anyone know how a phalanx held its spears? Have they tried to recreate one?

Well what you see in TC is only a rough recreation of reality. I think CA felt it may have been too much trouble to implement both an overhand spear thrust animation for hoplites and a two handed underhand thrust for phalangites so they made a compromise and settled on a one handed, underhand thrusting animation for all spear troops, hoplite, phalangite or otherwise. As to the spacing of these types of troops I believe the same generic, tightly packed 'phalanx' special formation option is going to be available to all hoplite and phalangite units in the game. This 'one size fits all' approach is less of a hassle for the art department, less of a burden on system resources and a definite sore point with the more historically minded TW gamer... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Spino @ Jan. 28 2004,18:32)]This 'one size fits all' approach is less of a hassle for the art department, less of a burden on system resources and a definite sore point with the more historically minded TW gamer... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Very true, but you seam to have misunderstood my question. Perhaps I should have formulated it better.
I wanted to know how it was possible to fight with five rows of men all pointing their spears forward. It seems to me that there just isn't space for five spear shafts in a thightly packed formation.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]Very true, but you seam to have misunderstood my question. Perhaps I should have formulated it better.
I wanted to know how it was possible to fight with five rows of men all pointing their spears forward. It seems to me that there just isn't space for five spear shafts in a thightly packed formation.

No, it was my fault. I completely overlooked the point of your post. Anyway, the macedonian style phalanx was not as tightly packed as your average formation of hoplites. The long reach of the sarissa made the neccessity of standing so close to your neighbors for mutual support less of an issue and extremely impractical given its two handed grip and the rest of the shaft that protruded backwards into the rear ranks.

With the macedonian style phalanx creating a wall of sarissas was the whole point to the formation.

I suppose 5 ranks of leveled sarissas was all that the formation allowed for without compromising its mobility, integrity and efficiency. The downside to having 5 'active' ranks of long spears is that it leaves very little room for the first 5 ranks of phalangites to maneuver their sarissas (especially in the horizontal plane) to exploit an enemy's weak spots. Phalangites had to rely on the overall integrity and imposing nature of the spear wall to do the work for them. Obviously this was not a problem for hoplites in the front ranks who, with their smaller spears and overhand grip, could aim for almost any exposed spot on an enemy above and around his shield.

Here's a reasonably historically accurate picture to work with. The phalangites shown here are missing their shoulder slung shields and should be in a 16 rank deep formation but the overall placement of the men seems right...

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/media/original/a162a.jpg

[Ludens]

That picture was exactly what I was looking for. Thank you, Spino http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Kraxis]

Yeah, but Spino, the shoulder slung shield wasn't really that. It was still a forearm shield, but was supported by a strap to the neck or shoulder. At least that is what I have learned. Seems sensible enough as the left arm would be almost horizontal and perpendicular to the body, meaning it would be flat towards the enemy. A nice position for the shield.
Well that was just some nitpicking. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Now, that picture shows the phalanx as having different sizes of pikes. I know there is a bit of a debate about it, but I doubt they were in different sizes. The length between the points would be short enough to still be a scary and dangerous thing.
I can't back up my point with historical facts, but if losses began to happen to the first ranks the next ranks would fill up, but that would leave the pikepoints to be a mess of lengths (it wouldn't always be the first man that fell first). Also with long pikes the phalanx would have an advantage over a phalanx with synchronized pikes, and that was what they fought the most, other phalanxes.
Heh, I just realized you never advocated it. Silly me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Anyway the point stands, we can always use oppinions.

[Rosacrux]

More nitpicking:

There is quite a debate going on between military historians as to if the hoplites were thrusting underhand in most cases with their spears.

While in most (if not all) the ancient illustrations the hoplites are depicted using an overhand thrust, most military historians and experts seem to believe that it as "artistic license" illustration and not a realistic depiction of hoplite phalanx warfare.

Most tend to believe that an overhand thrust would lack the power, steadiness and ease of aiming crucial body parts* the underhand grip offers (even the one-handed).

OTOH there is really no question about the pike phalanx - they held the 5.5-6.5 meter sarissas with both hands as it would be quite impossible to use one-handed.

*75% of the lethal wunds in hoplite warfare were inflicted in the thighs, nevertheless.

And, on a sidenote, has there ever been a decent illustration of pike-phalanx warfare in the movies? I am highly anticipating Stone's Alexander mostly for that - to see how they make up the battles of Alex.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]That picture was exactly what I was looking for. Thank you, Spino

You're welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Quote[/b] ]Yeah, but Spino, the shoulder slung shield wasn't really that. It was still a forearm shield, but was supported by a strap to the neck or shoulder. At least that is what I have learned. Seems sensible enough as the left arm would be almost horizontal and perpendicular to the body, meaning it would be flat towards the enemy. A nice position for the shield.
Well that was just some nitpicking.

I only said the phalangites in the picture were missing their shoulder slung shields You'll get no argument from me on your points.


Quote[/b] ]Now, that picture shows the phalanx as having different sizes of pikes. I know there is a bit of a debate about it, but I doubt they were in different sizes. The length between the points would be short enough to still be a scary and dangerous thing.
I can't back up my point with historical facts, but if losses began to happen to the first ranks the next ranks would fill up, but that would leave the pikepoints to be a mess of lengths (it wouldn't always be the first man that fell first). Also with long pikes the phalanx would have an advantage over a phalanx with synchronized pikes, and that was what they fought the most, other phalanxes.

I personally don't buy the different sized pike theory either. It seems way too impractical to implement in the field. Having to ensure everyone has the right sized pike after the battle would be a pain in the ass. Having to seek out suitable ash trees in foreign lands just to replace certain sized pikes broken or lost on campaign would be an even bigger pain in the ass. And finally the idea of mixing and matching different sized pikes during battle is just idiotic. Better to give everyone standard equipment and let them adopt a different grip based on their placement within the phalanx than to specialize things to the point of silliness.


Quote[/b] ]Heh, I just realized you never advocated it. Silly me.
Anyway the point stands, we can always use oppinions.

Heh, looking for a fight when there's neither smoke or fire I surmise you either had a bad day at work or you were in a 'Tavern' state of mind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]While in most (if not all) the ancient illustrations the hoplites are depicted using an overhand thrust, most military historians and experts seem to believe that it as "artistic license" illustration and not a realistic depiction of hoplite phalanx warfare.

Most tend to believe that an overhand thrust would lack the power, steadiness and ease of aiming crucial body parts* the underhand grip offers (even the one-handed).

While I am loathe to give modern artists the benefit of the doubt I have little doubt that those ancient artists were fairly spot on with their renditions of the hoplite phalanx. There are simply too many instances in ancient pottery, scupture reliefs, etc. where the hoplites are depicted with overhand grips. How hard could it have been for a curious artisan of those days to take a nice walk to the local training grounds and watch hoplites practise their drills? I'll wager it was even easier for an artisan to ask a hoplite to pose for him in full armor and illustrate those same drills in his studio.


Quote[/b] ]*75% of the lethal wunds in hoplite warfare were inflicted in the thighs, nevertheless.

Given the large size of a hoplite's hoplon shield and man's instinctive nature to protect his upper body (especially his head) when threatened this statistic doesn't surprise me. A well trained, determined and experienced hoplite would probably know to exploit this natural human reaction and make his enemy pay for it. Given that hoplite phalanxes typically crashed into and shoved against the shield wall of their enemies something tells me many of these thigh wounds occurred prior to the moment when the shield walls met.

[DrNo]

Replying to original post, I think alot of the time people overlook the way the programmers have to account for soldiers.
The front men in the phalanx most likely to target the front men in the enemy unit.
Once a pike(attacker) hits the enemy either the soldier hit has to die/ or to be pushed back to enable the attacking soldier to move forwards. No kill/pushback then nowhere for attacking soldier to go, hence he stops. The man behind will not move alongside or past as there is no space, hence the whole unit comes to a halt.
This happens with cavalry in MTW quite often and the only way to get a real crashing charge is to order your unit to run to a point on the other side of enemy unit you want to attack, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread.
That way the front man dosn't engage the front man in enemy unit he simply hits whatever is in front.
If there is nothing in front of him then he carries on his way through enemy unit rather than stopping to attack the front man nearest to him.

This is a tactic that can be used to great effect on chasing routing soldiers or for attacking weaker units.

I would guess that every attack ordered by CA people in Time Commanders would have been an actual attack that enemy unit order rather than a run to point through that enemy unit.
We will just have to wait and hope that with the extra time the devs have had, that the fighting graphics will be better than in time commanders

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Jan. 30 2004,02:19)]*75% of the lethal wunds in hoplite warfare were inflicted in the thighs, nevertheless.
Seems odd, as the vast majority of the losses were suffered in the ensuing rout. I thought that most would have wounds to the back, back of the legs and in the neck. I mean who would give the routing hoplite a chance to fight back by engaging him to the front.
Further where does this statistic come from?


Quote[/b] ]While in most (if not all) the ancient illustrations the hoplites are depicted using an overhand thrust, most military historians and experts seem to believe that it as "artistic license" illustration and not a realistic depiction of hoplite phalanx warfare.

I'm with Spino here. Further, it is not because the artists couldn't do underhand stances as is shown in a number of places. So I believe the artists did present the thruth as they saw it.
And to argue (I know you don't Rosa, just pre-emptive here) that the paintings can't be trusted due to all the nakedness presented, I have this to say:

To present a hoplite naked would be like when we see paintings of 19th century soldiers fighting each other in paradedress. Not the truth, but how it was preferred to be seen. But the underhand vs overhand debate would be like presenting those same soldiers firing from the hip. Well, it could certainly be argued that since the muskets were so inaccurate that the soldiers weren't instructed in aiming from the shoulder, but from the hip. See my point? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif


Quote[/b] ]Most tend to believe that an overhand thrust would lack the power, steadiness and ease of aiming crucial body parts* the underhand grip offers (even the one-handed).

I don't buy that. I find it rather easy to strike downwards. But anyway, an underhand stance would be dangerous to the guys behind you in the charge, as well as the spear would most likely break easier.
Lastly, we are talking about 8 foot spears, we are trying to strike an enemy that is standing right in front of you, shield to shield with you. So it is hard to accept that you should be able to angle this rather long pole enough to hit anything higher than his thighs. Meaning that any groin attacks would be close to impossible.
Overhand on the other side, is able to strike down into the thigh if you are lucky, but also very much able to strike at the enemy's head, neck, back, arms ect ect... it simply leaves much greater options.

It is also interesting to notice that pretty much everywhere else the spear has been used in overhand. Actually at Granicus some soldier in the phalanx supposedly said later in his life that "the enemy had his spear defensively, over the shield, while we held the spear offensively under the shield". Or something along those lines.
Given that the greatest infantry vs infantry fight there was against Memnon's mercenary hoplites (the Persian infantry fled before contact), it is not unlikely that this is indeed the enemy he mentions. I find it plausible.

[biguth dickuth]

i only recently watched Leuctra from time commanders and i tend to agree with Kraxis. it would be probably more correct if the hoplites were shown using overhand thrusts. i think an overhand thrust would have enough momentum to strike the enemy down.

besides, think about older spear infantry in history, like the infantry of the achaean greeks or the infantry of some of the peoples in middle east and messopotamia. these infantrymen were usually armoured only with a helmet and a very large shield of a semi-cylinder or square shape (like the roman ones after marius but often even bigger). there isn't enough information about exactly how these people fought, but there are recordings that they often formed shield-walls.
in a formation like that and with that kind of shields, an underhand thrust would be almost useless, if not impossible, so they would usually use an overhand one.
so, my point is, if they could and did use an overhand thrust, why wouldn't the hoplites?

anyway, i hope that CA will change this and also improve the combat animation, by the time the game goes out in the market.

by the way, the spears that the spartans and the thebeans are holding in the battle seem longer than just 8ft (2.5m) long, unless of course the people of the time were quite short http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif which they were, from what i know (about 1.60m).

also, i really hope they will change the spartan hoplites' red cloak and shorten it a bit. i think it should reach a little above the knees. well the spartans did have long cloaks like these but they didn't wear them in battle. they wore shorter, more handy ones. the way they are depicted in TC, they realy seem to be wearing evening dresses, as others have already mentioned...

[Math Mathonwy]

Guys its simple, just look at the size of the hoplites shields, they would make underhand thrusting impossible. Later the Macedonians used smaller sheilds and big sassira,and yeah THEY used the underhand, and held the spear with both hands.

[The Wizard]

So, essentially, we can say they were pikemen with a buckler who carried their weapons double-handedly and who's power lay in the wall of pikes which was very hard to penetrate?

So in RTW we have to expect a bonus to units attacking their flanks, because these are weak if exposed?



~Wiz

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] ]So, essentially, we can say they were pikemen with a buckler who carried their weapons double-handedly and who's power lay in the wall of pikes which was very hard to penetrate?

So in RTW we have to expect a bonus to units attacking their flanks, because these are weak if exposed?

all true, but only for the macedonian phalanx and the phalanxes of most other greeks at the time period depicted in the game.

the phalanxes depicted in TC Leuctra were older. they were 4th century hoplite phalanxes who were spearmen, not pikemen and therefore their spears were shorter, they held them with one hand and they were more maneuverable.

[The Wizard]

Yes, indeed. But their spears were sneakily pike-like, if you ask me...

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya sez... indeed Vanya saw the two armies in the TC battles of Leuctra and Raphia "clash" into each other.

Vanya saw spear points crashing into heads. Vanya saw peeps spitting out teeth when enemy pigsticker did root canal without using anesthetic (What barbarians) And in a handfull of occasions, Vanya saw chaps rebuffing spear jabs with their arses

Vanya not see any mooning, as that aspect was probably toned down in order to meet "moral and decency" expectations.

Vanya still not see the legendary Vestal Virgin Bareback Cavalry used... but maybe in future TC episode (if any)...

GAH