Community Mod - beta version

[CBR]

After fiddling with it for nearly 2 months, its time to open it up for those who are interested.

Balance. A word used often and we have seen long discussions about how to achieve it and what really is balanced or not in the current game.


The primary ideas in this mod is:


-Encourage players to use more than just the few units used in the current game.

-Make missile more important so rush armies wont be so strong.

-Encourage players to use the 3 infantry unit types(swords/spears/polearms) in a combined arms tactic compared to the dominance of swords in the current game.

-To remove or lessen the effect of the unintuitive upgrading (pumping up cheap units)


So how can this be achieved? Some people might have other ideas of how to do it, but based on my experience with 5k-15k I dont see how it can be done in any other way:

-Make sure that unitcosts and florin level used is done in such a way that players cant buy 16 of the best units.

-Missile units need to cost less compared to melee units.

-Swords need an increase in cost compared to spear/polearm units.

-The cost formula that CA uses gives way too high cost difference between cheap and expensive units creating some "loopholes" in upgrading. So a change in that formula is needed.


So what has been changed?

Because we cant reduce missile unit cost without running into the upgrade discount, and end up gaining money when buying upgrades for missile, we have to increase cost for all units.

Although trying to achieve a nice florin level to be played at (10K) rounding off issues meant 11K is the level that suits balance the most.

In effect the mod is played like 5k as you focus on unit choice and not upgrades. I know thats gonna put off some people but its the only way to ensure that a majority of the units actually can and will be used and that the "lighter" factions have a chance.


Specific changes.

Apart from the cost changes a few units got different stats/weapons. If people want a list of all new unitcosts I can make that available too.

Urban Militia and Militia Sergeants now have polearms. Their default combat stats changed by -1 attack/+1 defense (polearms compared to the axe they had before) and of course the +3 attack/+1 defense v cavalry.

Crossbows/Arbalesters have 2 less defense

All javelin armed units now have darts (8 ammo instead of 4) to give them better range and hopefully make them more useful.

All bows now have 36 ammo (instead of 28), crossbow/arbalester have 30 and handgun/arq have 12(instead of 10)

All units except crossbow/arb have +2 morale

Handgunners and Mamluk Handgunners are now a High era only unit.

Mongols are now a High era only faction.

Byzantines now have basic spearmen.


How to install and use this mod:

The installer should be able to find your primary MTW installation automatically but if something goes wrong or you want to install it into another MTW directory then you can manually change it by pointing to the MTW folder you want.

Example:

If your install is located in say C:\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War, then that is precisely where the installer should point to in the destination directory when installing.


This mod does not require any statswapping so you can use it with your normal game. When hosting you will have 3 new eras to pick from: Early+, High+ and Late+. Picking these eras gives you the new stats and anyone who has the mod installed will be able to join your game.

If you want to play a normal game of MTW then you just pick the default eras as you normally would do.

Uninstalling is easy too with the uninstaller that comes with the mod. You can find the uninstaller both in your start menu or by opening your main MTW folder(file called CommunityModUninstall.exe).



This is still a beta as there might be some balance issues left to fix. I know its unfortunately impossible to make all satisfied, but as it is now it should fix most of balance problems we have in the current 2.01 game.

You can download the mod here:

Download (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/CBR/CommunityModBeta3.exe)

A list of unit costs here (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/CBR/UnitCost.htm)

I hope you will try it out and give some feedback.


CBR

[CBR]

Gameplay

*placeholder*

[Kongamato]

Is this for regular MTW or VI?

[CBR]

Its for VI only.

In 1.1 you cant make mods with custom unitstats without statswapping.


CBR

[Kongamato]

Ok.

I'll be online in a few minutes, maybe we can test this.

[cromwell]

I like that you have tried to balance the situation for multi and include more units when playing. I was thinking of something similiar not long ago. However my idea was to give bonuses to units close to each other/working together. Similiar to the general when he's within a certain distance of troops they get a moral boost. Have combinations of troops you could group together for bonuses. With different combinations having different strenghts and weakness. To bad we couldn't do some sort of custom combo attack/defence when you ALT attack or put on Hold. Anyways I was just thinking about the game and how every version is recycled, nothing new in the combat to take it to another level.

Cromwell

[1dread1lahll]

With the community as divided as it is now, I see little hope of a successful player done mod,(kocmoc tried this already, and noone even loaded it). But it would be nice if it could be done,.... for archers they are expected to be taken at V0 so for balance make them very cheap, increase their morale, but reduce their meele a lot, (cant pump them into meele) leave hi-bryeds alone..
increase the range of javalins and napa...most others could be made better by way of their basic costs...as cbr has said....you need to test it and if you devalue swords in relation to spears you are devaluating them in relation to cav also,...I will await the judgement of others

[Skomatth]

Well I think it's quite good for what thats worth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Anyway it opens the door for quite a lot of different styles to be played against each effectively: rushing, skirmish, reactionary, defensive, enveloping... maybe you have your own names but you get the picture...

[Postino]

i will be hosting tommorow night at 11pm central(US), if anyone can make it respond and i will load this up.


taking 5k armies on VI is an ineffective way of increasing the importance of unit selection and play. i am not sure about decreasing the abilities of swords though, spears are nearly useless against swords after they manage to close. perhaps increase the rank bonus...or adjust the stats slightly on the defense or morale for the spears.

adjusting overall morale in a way that allows 5k v0 armies to last as long as a 15k army might do as well.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (1dread1lahll @ Dec. 24 2003,05:48)]With the community as divided as it is now, I see little hope of a successful player done mod...
Yes I have days where I wonder why I even bother with this. I just see lots of potiential in MTW that is wasted with how the current gameplay is. Even if its not going to be used much at least I have done what I could.

Loads of swords as the main infantry means something is wrong...that might be a matter of taste of course but when we have both spears and polearms too I would like to have them play a much bigger role.

The 5k gameplay did show some good things. When swords fear heavy cavalry you started using some anti-cav infantry too. But there were several balance issues in 5k..rush armies too powerful, chainrouts sometimes felt too random(I guess some people dont even want any chainrouting at all) and swords were still too good v spears/polearms.

People just have to realise that when playing this mod its not going to be what they are used to. Having to use infantry in a more combined arms approach means a new type of gameplay compared to just having a standard line of swords.

PS Increasing range of naptha is not possible without having custom projectile stats and that means statswapping.


CBR

[CBR]

The problem is that if a western faction have enough money to buy a balanced army of say 4 chiv knights, 4 orderfoot, 4 cmaa and 4 pavs..how then will units like spearmen, feudal sgts, fmaa, mounted sgts etc ever be used?

And what is a turkish faction gonna do against such an army? Neither their spears, swords or cavalry is of same strength(only JHI is really good and then you are forcing the turk player to always buy them, giving him less choice of overall army)

Spears against swords...yes a tricky thing heh. If you take cmaa v chiv sgts (equal valor) you will find that cmaa will lose at least 50% of the fights. Put the cmaa in wedge and they will win about 99%. Spears are rarely used and thats even without people using wedge formation. All because a player is weakening his army is he wants to have same valor on his spears and if he has lower valor they get slaughtered.

All that for a unit that doesnt kill cavalry very quick so therefore its role on the battlefield is not very clear.

(Out of boredom I have started using 6 spears in my 10k armies and I do have some fun with them as they are all valor 2. They can kill enemy swords and right now Im really counting on people being surprised of the power of my spears, as well as them not using wedge and of course doing what I can not to lose my weakened cavalry too quickly)


I see spears as something like an important unit in the main line. Not good at maneuvers and doesnt like flank attacks. Can be defeated frontally by using good swords in wedge but not something weak at all.

I know I can do something with turning ability to make them even more vulnerable against flank/rear attacks..just wanted to wait and see how they work with new costs.


Morale is another thing. If you are used to 15k then playing this mod at 11k, which means practically no upgrades, will mean morale feels low. You have to be careful about flank/rear attacks. Maybe morale is too low and an increase of another 2 (except all the morale 10 units, knights mostly) is needed.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

I've only played a few games so far with CBR's mod, and I can already see that it requires more attention to tactics than the regular game. Feedback is needed from players so that any outstanding balance issues can be addressed. This mod could easily replace the regular game as the standard of play since no stat swapping is required, the gameplay is more interesting and the regular game is still right there if you want it. Of course, there is a substantial learning curve to it, and that's going to put some and possibly even most players off.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Postino, I might be able to get on tonight @ 11pm central (or 9pm pacific) to test this. However, it is Christmas Eve, so I won't know until right before if I'm going to be able to play, but I will try. It'll have been a couple ... oh ... months since I've played VI (CD drive wasn't working), but I'm a decent player. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Crazed Rabbit

[Daevorn]

thank you cbr http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

i will try it as soon as i will be online

[CBR]

I made a list of the new unitcosts.

Link (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/CBR/UnitCost.htm)


CBR

[Marco]

Is their stats altered ?

[CBR]

Just read my first post http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Units changed:

Urban Militia and Militia Sgts. Their primary attack/defense stats have only been altered by -1 attack and +1 defense (no change in overall combat power) and been given the +3 attack/+1 defense versus cavalry (as they now have polearms)

Crossbows and arbalesters. Their defense have been reduced by 2.


And of course all units except crossbows/arbalesters have been given 2 extra morale.



CBR

[Efrem Da King]

If I install it, will I be able to play with people without it??

[CBR]

All people have to have the mod to play the mod.

But you can install it and still play the normal MTW game. All you need to do is pick the standard eras when hosting and pick the 3 new eras when you want to play this mod.

As a player you can see what era the host is using. If a player doesnt have the mod he will get version conflict as well as he can see that the era is something different.



CBR

[Efrem Da King]

k then

[Jochi Khan]

Hi

I have VI, barocca's shogun mod and CBR's community mod all on same install. So easy to play no statswapper involved.
Just join game and away to go.

.....Jochi

[Shahed]

Most intriguing.

[shingenmitch2]

CBR

Sounds awesome The fact that there is no stat swap gives this a real chance for sticking. I will DL it very soon.

I don't get on as much anymore, but was playing w/swoosh and mo on the 31st.

Hope to catch all around. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Puzz3D]

Played some 2v2 games with this mod last night, and I would still say it's more challenging than the regular game and has a better RPS balance. It even has Mongols in the high era.

[Orda Khan]

It is sad that so few have actually given your Mod a try CBR, it is certainly much better balanced than the normal game. If it's any consolation, I've had some of my most enjoyable battles on MTW or VI using this Mod, it's a fine piece of work. Sadly, the community don't seem to have latched on to the principle that Mods, once installed , just become another host/join option. They do NOT interfere with the game.
Thanks again....Don't lose heart

....Orda

[Dionysus9]

Now there I go being dense again, but this is the first time I've heard about it

Damn CBR you are too modest, you should advertise more in the foyer :)....I'll go d/l it.

[Vinsitor]

Tnx a lot CBR, I'll tell of the mod to my Clan and to the italian community ;)

I suggest to create an online competition using this mod in order to make it know to the totalwar multiplay community http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Jochi Khan]

Hi CBR

At last....all your hard work is finally showing results.
Glad to see that people are downloading the Community Mod.
Now perhaps we will be able to have more battles with a lot more people able to take part.
With no stat swapping involved it is so easy for anyone to play.
To clear up any concerns about installing, I have mtw/vi..Barocca's shogun in vi mod ..and the Community Beta Mod all on the same instal. I can join any battle in any of these without having to swap anything. All the era's are there, may have to scroll down to see all if you are hosting.

....Jochi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

[Mithrandir]

Just installed and planning on a +game now :).

[Nigel]

Downloaded it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Just a few more questions :
Will it interfere with my SP games ? Or PBM games sent to me ?
Any special install instructions, or do I just doubleclick the .exe ?

[TosaInu]

Just doubleclick should do. It adds, no files will be altered. SP and PBM games should work fine. The extra eras will work in MP and SP custom. You'll see extra campaigns too. While those are probably just copies of the normal campaigns they'll allow you to play with the new units there.

[Sp00n]

Hi All,

I agree a 1v1 or 2v2 tourney is the best way to get the community mod to be used, Ive tried speaking to Major clans about the mod and none are that interested despite most moaning about the swords cav issues the game currently has, its human nature that we can be lazy when it comes to change, starting a tourny may be a way of getting more to use it.

MizuSp00n

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-argue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[Orda Khan]

Quote[/b] (Sp00n @ Feb. 05 2004,19:19)]Hi All,

I agree a 1v1 or 2v2 tourney is the best way to get the community mod to be used, Ive tried speaking to Major clans about the mod and none are that interested despite most moaning about the swords cav issues the game currently has, its human nature that we can be lazy when it comes to change, starting a tourny may be a way of getting more to use it.

MizuSp00n

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-argue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif
Yes....as I have said many times, people just don't seem interested yet there has been plenty of debate about imbalance. Strange isn't it?

Just in case.....
Once installed, the Mod is just another option

......Orda

[Nigel]

ok, got it installed.

Now lets see what it is like.

[CBR]

For those (few?) of you who actually have tried it you are more than welcome to come out with your thoughts and even ideas for changes.

Im planning on at least one version more. Just havent bothered with MTW for several weeks now. Cheaper archers and some of the heavy cavalry too is the current plan for next version.


CBR

[Mithrandir]

I've so far only had 2 games with it online, and thats too few for me to see how good it is. I've posted about it on the mainpage and hopefully more people will download and use it :).

[Nigel]

Thanks for the game last night, all who took part.
I liked the mod a lot. It will surely make for more intersting and varied gameplay in MTW.

One question I have (well, and you asked for comments here, CBR http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif).
I noticed that pavs are still cheaper than most other archers. In fact most of us yesterday still chose pavs as their main missile units. Given all the talk about pav wars and shootouts and all that, I would have thought it would be good if we could get away from them beeing the dominant archer type. Perhaps make them more expensive, slower (heavy pavise) or more vulnerable in melee.

In my understanding, pavises were mainly used in castle sieges. They were more like a siege device and too heavy to carry around with a marching army or to run around with on the battlefield. The historians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif may know better than me, of course, but that's just how I see it.

In any case I would think that some incentive to use other archer types than pav crossbows would be good for the gameplay.

Hope to play more Cmod games soon,
Nigel

[CBR]

Yes it was a nice game...Orda and his Mongols grrr http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Your comments and suggestions are appreciated Nigel.

First of all I know I can make all archer units cheaper (generally 50 florins less) so next version will improve that a bit. I dont use all pavs for my crossbows as I dont feel I need them and like to spend the money somewhere else. I have thought about making pavs cost 50 more but not sure yet.

Historically pavises were used in battles but of course not everyone had them. They also came in different sizes. The ones used at sieges (but some times still called pavise) were actually more like mantlets.

What tactics some units used can be a bit blurry sometimes, but some crossbows apparently were working combined with spearmen who had very large shield. The crossbowmen would then stand behind the spearman for cover. Maybe something like 3 crossbowmen per spearmen. A tactic like that is a bit difficult to make for MTW though.

I dont know when I will finish next version. I have some ideas about unitspeed and turning abilty as well as new costs. The current version hasnt changed much of the original factions nor unit stats so it will be drastic changes. We will see.


CBR

[Orda Khan]

One consideration that favours pavs over archers is the slower reload speed, so therefore fire for longer without the micro management required to save an archers arrows. The use of archers may mean a different approach to the game, which would not be a bad thing IMO. I think we would always have the missile war and that's no bad thing, it offers time to coordinate your attack with allies, look for weak areas, even gain an advantage. There will always be a fine line between too many and not enough ranged units. I think it is fair to say that pavs are best for alround performance due to their shield protection, though normal crossbows don't suffer too much against them. At least with the Mod there is better unit-to-unit balance, which in turn allows for a different approach to battlefield tactics...No doubt CBR will remember a huge spear line that held and held, what a lovely sight that was, or some flank harassment and eventual envelopment using mounted archers from 2 allied armies on one flank.
The possibilities are there, with some inventive allies some battles become true epics that you will save and keep

.....Orda

[Orda Khan]

Very nice to see the recent interest in this Mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

......Orda