View Full Version : Interesting experiences with the Horde
Revenant69
12-22-2003, 23:01
Well, after cleaning up my harddrive i reinstalled MTW: VI and started a new campaign as Russians in High total Domination.
Needless to say this has been one very surprising campaign so far. Oh yeah, the Horde appeared in Khazar with 12000 and in Georgia with 5000. Turks control most of the territories adjacent to Georgia as well. Here goes...
1. Well, one of the first things id like to mention that in one of the battles, when my army sneak attacked Khazar (when Mongols were campaigning in Kiev, Pereyaslavl and Crimea) and took it, the next year i got counterattacked......but the kicker is, that the first wave had 12 MHC. Bloody hell. It was a massacre. I mean, my army was very missile heavy and i had about 5 armored spears and about 3 boyars and a couple of HA. My general was 6 star prince, their Khan was 7 star.
I sat and waited for their armored column to approach and my 3 arbalesters started to unleash hell on a few of their MHC. I sent in my HA and a Boyar to destroy weakened units of MHC. but they didnt die easy, they took my boyars down to 12 men and destroyed my HA.
At this stage, the rest of their MHC turns around and retreats into the forest WOW, I thought i was saved and Horde decided that i was too tough. I sent the rest of my boyars to deal with Mongol foot and MHA (as they were also withdrawing "or so it seemed"), promptly destroying them.
However, what i did not notice is that all that remaining MHC (about 9 of them) went through the forest and flanked me. So next thing I see is my ENTIRE left flank collapses and runs as the isane ammount of MHC crashes into it. My center followed suit quite quick. Only the right flank was untouched.
I scrambeld my boyars and troops from the right to distract and plug holes in my lines while the MHC were pursuing my spears, arbs and archers through the forest.
Well, with about 80% of my army absolutely annihilated i managed to slow down the MHC in the forest with a couple of units of spears and boyars and my reinforcements arrived just in time to rout the pesky Mongols.
I was absolutely stunned and amazed at the brilliant trap that the computer pulled on me. I managed to win the battle losing around 1500 while Mongols lost about 1100. This was one of my fondest battles and tought me not to underestimate 12 MHC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Whew.
So I wonder what unusual tricks has the AI pulled on other people. Share your stories if you have them. I shall continue my observations in a couple more posts.
The_Emperor
12-22-2003, 23:06
Ahh yes, the High Period Russian Campaign... Brings back Memories of the Tzars PBM doesn't it?
A Great challenge isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Revenant69
12-22-2003, 23:15
2. Well, when I launched that sneak attack, i launched it from a couple of territories of mine. I guess most of my army came through the river so I had to fight a river assault battle Yikes. They had about 5 MHC and the rest were 9 mongol foot and 2 naptha.
With 6 arbs and 3 boyars, 1 druzhyna and 4 armored spears and catapults i felt confident that i could force a crossing. To my surprise, the enemy army was deployed waaaay away from the 2 bridges. I thought to myself, "Fine, i am going to leapfrog with my arbs and spears until a couple of units cross the bridge thus establishing a secure crossing for further troops. At the same time my cavalry will cross through the secod bridge and harass their main line to keep them distracted."
Brilliant strategy LOL (i am being sarcastic). I was almost near the bridge when i noticed that Mongols were moving towards it as well, but were still quite far off. My cavalry arrived on the 2nd bridge and waited for the order to cross.
As soon as my first unit of spears was almost across the bridge, it got slammed by 3 MHC who made the journey to the bridge really really fast. My leapfrogging was paying off as the bridge was covered with arbs who were taking down the MHC. Unfortunatly, I had another unit of spears stuck on the bridge.
During this time my cavalry crossed the 2nd bridge and charged towards the huge body of mongol foot hoping to destroy them. Suddenly, MHC at the bridge turned around and ran towards my cavalry, while the remainng 2 MHC from the center line cherged my guys head on. I was pincered and when mongol foot arrived I was absolutely surrounded. I must say Druzhyna guys put up quite a fight dying to the last man. I lost all the cavalry except my lone jedi general with 10 valor was holding of hordes of mongols.
Once again I won with horrible losses, but I was surprised at how effectively the AI countered my every move. I am beginning to suspect that doing a fresh reinstall of VI and then patching it improves the AI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Revenant69
12-22-2003, 23:16
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Dec. 22 2003,17:06)]Ahh yes, the High Period Russian Campaign... Brings back Memories of the Tzars PBM doesn't it?
A Great challenge isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Hehe it certainly does doesnt it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Revenant69
12-22-2003, 23:26
3 Thirdly, but not lastly. The inevitable Mongol attack on Kiev. Hordes and hordes of MHC and MHA. Kiev was defended by my 6 star king while their Khan was 7 stars.
Well, knowing that the AI charges just one bridge i deployed most of my army on the first bridge, while a lone unit of halberds were guarding the second bridge just in case.
Well, things proceede as planned, and their MHC crahed into my very well defended 1st bridge bastion, with my cavalry going around them (through the second bridge) I managed to trap and completely annihilate their first wave (but their Khan escaped). The next wave spawns on the horizon and marches through the middle.
To my horror....they head for the second bridge which is defended by a lone halberd. The AI never ever ever used to do this before. I panick and march half of my army to help reinforce it. Strangely, Mongols split their forces and majority engages my 1st bridge which is somewhat less defended now, while their sizeable chunk heads for the 2nd bridge and starts peppering my halbs to death.
I arrived just in the nick of time to replace the wavering halbs with armored spears and managed to hold both bridges.
WOW, I am absolutely stunned by the stuff the computer is pulling on me. Needless to say this is one of the most exciting campaigns I have played so far. I have never had AI surprise me on so many occasions.
What do you think guys/gals? Any comments?
The_Emperor
12-22-2003, 23:35
Be sure to post the replays...
I'd love to see those battles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I've have seen situations leke your first battle plenty of times and I have learned the hard way not to pursue withdrwing troops because the battle is won and the A.I. can quickly turn the odds in their favour as they are withdrawing in formation and since then the only thing I have sent in to harass them is mounted missle units and over 90 percent of the time they keep withdrawing or turn some archers around to chase your cavalry away and proceed to withdraw
The last time I had to defend Khazar from the Horde (as HRE) I tried a different tactic from my usual open field defense. I built a fortress there and garrisoned it with 200 men, mostly dismounted knights and halbardiers. I also include 4 catapults. There was no intention to resist beyond the walls.
The Mongols arrived with 21,000 men. They assaulted the fortress immediately. I wrecked the only two ballistas they had with my own catapults so they had to storm the gates. By the time the third gate was breached and my garrison was overcome more than 10,000 invaders were dead. A subsequent counteroffensive reclaimed the region and the fortress was recaptured.
Revenant69
12-23-2003, 23:18
Quote[/b] (Nelson @ Dec. 23 2003,16:59)]The last time I had to defend Khazar from the Horde (as HRE) I tried a different tactic from my usual open field defense. I built a fortress there and garrisoned it with 200 men, mostly dismounted knights and halbardiers. I also include 4 catapults. There was no intention to resist beyond the walls.
The Mongols arrived with 21,000 men. They assaulted the fortress immediately. I wrecked the only two ballistas they had with my own catapults so they had to storm the gates. By the time the third gate was breached and my garrison was overcome more than 10,000 invaders were dead. A subsequent counteroffensive reclaimed the region and the fortress was recaptured.
WOW, Nelson Sir/Mam - that is one wicked strategy. I will have to try it the next time i play a different faction (probably going to be high byzantines LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif ) .
I guess losing 960 (or less) knights and halberdiers kind of makes a good defense of Khazar.
Just out of curiosity, how long did the battle last? I am NOT lookiing forward to another 8 hour defense of Khazar LOL
If it was done in reasonable ammount of time then I will definitely give it a whirl.
God I love these forums, so much knowledge is stowed away in its dark halls ..... so much fun.....the best damn forum there is.....I digress.
Cheers all and Merry Xmas. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/snowman.gif
Rev
PS Attacking 11000 Mongols in Khazar is no small task http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
love playing russians using kekvit mod, 1230 hits, and by then my army is usually spread over poland and the byzantine empire cos i've forgotton completely about the mongols lol. at least 3 times I remember clicking desperately 15 provinces in the vain hope someone had mercenaries for hire (and Lots!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
That said, I've usually been lucky vs the mongols, and they ALWAYS go for Kiev first, so I build all my troops up there for my counter - Usually cuts 3-4k off their army just by wiping out every push they make then steamrollering straight into khazar.
Apart from the time I lost and became "The russian empire of Poland" or somesuch. imagine. Stuck in poland for nearly 80 damned years When im the Russians that was eventually one of 2 games I lost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif So not fair.
Revenant, the assault took about 60 to 90 minutes to play out. The garrison itself only accounted for several hundred Mongols. Over 95% of the casualties were inflicted by the fortress itself as it slammed arrows, ballista bolts and boulders into an unending river of Asian invaders.
I had never defended a fortress so I made it a point to capture Khazar early and begin to build one there because of course the Mongols would show up. What I didn’t know was whether they would assault or just starve me out. That’s why I kept the garrison so small, to hopefully lure them into a Verdun style blood bath. Luckily that’s just what I got.
The garrison was very select. I use the largest unit size so the single halbardier unit contained 120 men. I raised them in Sweden with 3 armor upgrades and at least one weapon upgrade. Their morale was also improved by a church and monastery. When combined with a 4 star commander and the no retreat bonus they were hardcore soldiers. The balance of the forlorn hope was comprised of 4 20 man chivalric style royal knight units all but one of which I dismounted and all of whom were equipped like the infantry regarding upgrades. One knight unit remained “a cheval” for sorties if required. The 4 catapults were mostly for counter battery fire but they proved to be effective killers as well.
When the battle began the Mongols sat still waiting for two ballistas to breach an outer wall. The towers in the fortress wailed on their infantry and cavalry from long range to good effect. Meanwhile their engines were wrecked or their crews were shot down before a breach was made. At this point they moved on the first gate.
At deployment time the game split the halbardiers into 2 60 man units which turned out to be a good thing because I was able to assign one to each of the first 2 gates. All they had to do was hold as long as possible and let the fortress do the killing. I would spell them with knights to let them rest and then return them to the fight. When they were almost wiped out and exhausted I had them retire to the next inner ring. The Mongols routed several times and would bunch up terribly trying to get out the portals they entered not long before. A catapult stone bouncing through such a gate can really puree some people. Being good hosts, German mounted knights would see them to the front door on their way out.
I thought for a time that I might actually hold the place, but 21,000 is a lot of guys. My own casualties came very slowly but inexorably and worse yet was fatigue that robbed my men of the strength to resist. The final portcullis was pierced and the last knight standing was the commanding Count of Friesland.
As for trying it again, it may be possible to use a larger garrison in the face of so many enemies and still provoke an immediate assault. Another hundred men and I think I would have held.
The counter attack that recaptured Khazar did not have to face 11,000 Mongols. Some of them had moved on to expand the Khanate (to no effect) and when the Germans finally returned there were maybe 3,000 that I needed to fight. I have defeated 20,000 in the field with about 4,000 Byzantines but it took over 4 hours
Revenant69
12-25-2003, 03:10
Great post Nelson. I will definitely give it a whirl next time i play byzantines, but in order to get a fortress i guess i will have to start in early. Oh well.
By the way i always build up Khazar with armor, morale bonuses - it makes the Mongols tougher when they appear and so gives me more fun when i defeat them.
I think i am going to try a full 960 garrison when i play it. Varangian guards come to mind LOL They are good at chopping up armored horse. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Unfortunately byzantines have no good spear unit so i will probably hire some mercs, or just go all out VGs. Hehehehehe......That would be sick. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Well no, I guess I will need some siege weapons to knock out theirs.....oh well 12 VGs it is LOL . Just imagine, 12 Varangian Guards summoned from Constantinople, with gold armor upgrade, inspired by churches and cathedrals built in that great city, trained by a master spearmaker, led by a greatest general of the royal family. The last stand that you could write about in books .......
YES, I will definitely try it. But first I have to finish beating up the world as Ruskies.
Cheers and Merry Xmas.
Rev
Kekvit Irae
12-28-2003, 09:36
Quote[/b] (Ashen @ Dec. 23 2003,19:27)]love playing russians using kekvit mod
^_^
fruitfly
12-28-2003, 14:34
I've been playing a campaign as the Turks in Early, and it's the first one I've done on hard with one of the eastern factions (in my last hard game as the English, the Egyptians had expanded over the entire eastern half of the map and routed the horde in a couple of years before I became aware of them).
The AI surprised me a bit because in 1230 they turned up in Khazar (which was a rebel province still), Georgia and Armenia (which were both mine) with about 9,000 men in each. I'd never seen them appear in three provinces at once before, but fortunately I'd been assembling armies in Trebizond to go and smite the Hungarians so I was able to reinforce Georgia and Armenia to repel the invaders.
The battles themselves weren't anything special really as JHI chew through MHC without any trouble at all and the AI always tries to skirmish Mongol warriors away from a cavalry charge and ends up getting them all killed/captured very cheaply so it was really just a question of whether I had enough arrows to take care of all the horse archers. In one of the battles I managed to win before the time limit expired, but the other one timed out after four hours. In total there were over 9,000 Mongols dead and a similar number captured and enslaved after the ransom demands were refused. The AI then decided it'd be smarter to expand north from Khazar rather than invade my lands again, which was a first.
I might try the fortress defence tactic next time though as it sounds like you can inflict incredibly heavy casualties that way in a much shorter time using few troops to defend with.
Quote[/b] (kekvitirae @ Dec. 28 2003,08:36)]
Quote[/b] (Ashen @ Dec. 23 2003,19:27)]love playing russians using kekvit mod
^_^
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
great mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Dîn-Heru
12-28-2003, 21:05
Quote[/b] (Revenant69 @ Dec. 22 2003,22:26)]3 Thirdly, but not lastly. The inevitable Mongol attack on Kiev. Hordes and hordes of MHC and MHA. Kiev was defended by my 6 star king while their Khan was 7 stars.
Well, knowing that the AI charges just one bridge i deployed most of my army on the first bridge, while a lone unit of halberds were guarding the second bridge just in case.
Well, things proceede as planned, and their MHC crahed into my very well defended 1st bridge bastion, with my cavalry going around them (through the second bridge) I managed to trap and completely annihilate their first wave (but their Khan escaped). The next wave spawns on the horizon and marches through the middle.
To my horror....they head for the second bridge which is defended by a lone halberd. The AI never ever ever used to do this before. I panick and march half of my army to help reinforce it. Strangely, Mongols split their forces and majority engages my 1st bridge which is somewhat less defended now, while their sizeable chunk heads for the 2nd bridge and starts peppering my halbs to death.
I arrived just in the nick of time to replace the wavering halbs with armored spears and managed to hold both bridges.
WOW, I am absolutely stunned by the stuff the computer is pulling on me. Needless to say this is one of the most exciting campaigns I have played so far. I have never had AI surprise me on so many occasions.
What do you think guys/gals? Any comments?
I am currently playing a high russian campaign on VI, and this happened every time they attacked a river province with two bridges.
First they attacked the main bridge where most of my forces were. Unlike Revenant69 I had thougt of the possibility of a attack on the second bridge and had deployed a unit of armoured spearmen in addition to a unit of halberdiers by it. With steppecav to attack the mongols with.
Sure enough after the first wave was repelled and the reinforcements headed for the second bridge. after this wave was defeated the mongels somtimes attacked the first bridge again before the withdrew.
This happpened in every of the 7-8 bridge battles I fought against them in Kiev, Moscovy, and Chernigov
(I think it was)
Oh- and emperor I have saved the replays on all of them if you want to see it with your own eyes.
heh,i love horde...look at these:
the battlefield..armies is meeting..http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Battlefield.jpg
the result....
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Result.jpg
there are "a few" prisoners and "very low" ransom..
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Ransom.jpg
zoom...
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Ransom-%202.jpg
hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif i love horde and Khan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif
(these screenshots were taken:playing as turks,expert..)
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