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DrNo
10-30-2000, 16:50
In current campaign I'm playing as Mori with Warrior Monks aplenty. Defending Owari against the hordes, first Oda and then Takeda in different battles.

From my experience it is better not to defend on the bridges but on the hill right towards the back right of the map. This nullifies the hordes numereous archers becuase they have to get really close to be effective. Whereas defending the bridge gives the archers easy targets.
It also allows for you to engage the correct troops. i.e. The AI has alot of Yari Cavalry which you need to engage with YS, saving your WM for the AI YS & YA.
On the bridge you have to fight multiple troop types in one big melee and so can't use your troops to their best effectiveness.

To give a numbers example I took out 641 to approx 140 by defending on the hill. AI total force was 3900ish against my 1030ish.
Using the bridge defense it was about 350 to 240 and a case of waiting for the timer to run out or the Ai to give up.

So consider bridge defense carefully.

Obake
10-30-2000, 18:00
Hey Doc!

I ran into the same issue in one of my campaigns a while back. For me it happened in Echizen where there is a large woods to defend from. I was outnumbered by about 3-1 and most of my troops were Ashi. Had a few guns, but it was raining as well. Had I stayed at the bridge, I would have been wiped out. As it turned out, I was able to win the battle by giving up the bridge and holding the woods.

I had to do this for 3 consecutive seasons until I could get enough re-inforcements up there for the AI to give up (1.11 patch). One other point I think is worth noting, is that if you give up the bridge and are able to rout the enemy, the kill rate when chasing routing troops increases dramatically because of the bottleneck at the bridge. In each battle I killed over 1000 troops. In one particular battle, my Yari Cav scored over 500 kills alone and I had not engaged them till the rout was on!

Obake

Anssi Hakkinen
10-30-2000, 18:22
Amazingly, even the AI knows this: it pulls back from the bridge in the face of superior force, re-deploys on a hill, and launches an offensive when your troops are in mid-crossing (as Sun Tzu instructs, so this doesn't seem like a coincidence).

However, like every strategy, the Back Forest Camping Defence only works when the conditions are correct. If you have only spearmen, the enemy has lots of archers and cavalry, and there's a forest handy, of course it's better to defend in the woods (both archers and cav get penalties). However, if *you* have archers, remember that DrNo's point works both ways. I just had a battle against the Illustrious Takeda Mounted Cavalry in Musashi. The enemy cavalry horde packed itself tight on the bridge and they tried to force themselves trough my spearmen. I had 3 60 man SA units (honor 0) firing into the crowd. Each had nearly a hundred kills before their arrows ran out... Unbelievable.

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"The ancient rule declares that letters are the left hand and militarism the right. Neither must be neglected." - Hojo Soun

Shimazu Tokugawa
10-30-2000, 22:47
I have found that many people online do not want to play bridge maps, not even friendly. I can understand that playing attacker is plain suicide and you do not need much skill as a defender. But I have played plenty of friendly battles in Bitch and Owari, especially the latter is quite inetesting with two bridges.
I attacked a lot and I lost may battles but it was always interesting.
Nowerdays nobody wants to play these maps, looks tike the battleground is now Totomi...
Very disappointing, indeed!
Humbley,
ST

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"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

10-30-2000, 23:56
THIS IS FOR SP (humans are too intelligent)

Sun Tzu wrote some sentences about attacking river provinces:

*When crossing a river, go away from it.*

This is the only one I can remember now.

I add:

Place naginata on the fore so that they absorb the enemy missile units. Keep WM and ND away from gunners and archers. When the enemy moves away from the bridge, send one unit over the bridge, preferably a fast one. The AI will attack. Now, you have two options:

1) Leave that unit fighting and dying and while it is massacred or massacrating, move all your units over the bridge.

2) When the enemy is due to reach your unit, move it across the bridge again. The AI will move his unit over the bridge, and there you could use the bridge advantage yourself.

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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

solypsist
10-31-2000, 02:37
I sort of have a formula for assaulting rivers that goes like this (ideally with a good mix of units):
1. line up archers along the shore.
2. get your elites nearby, facing the bridge.
3. march ashigaru (open formation) across and back again.
4. the AI shoots arrows at the peasant, and usually sends in a good unit (or ten) to engage your peasants.
5. you use up the enemy's arrows, and lure combat units close to the bridge (they almost never cross) to get sniped at by your archers.
6. replace archers as they run out of ammo.
7. after about 2 units of ashigaru have been used up (and subsequently routed off the field) the enemy will be nearly out of arrows and have a few units low on men.
8. spearhead your attack with the best you've got, followed by cavalry.
9. it's best to pause the game the issue orders to cavalry to engage archers/muskets while your hand units are sent to fight other hand units.
10. pump up the game speed and watch the enemy flee - slowing down only to issue new orders to your men to keep attacking fleeing or new units relentlessly.
11. works for me, and well under the clock time.

this really applies to 1 person games.
and yes, there are some issues, but i'm trying to keep this painfully simple in explanation.

Shimazu Tokugawa
10-31-2000, 06:26
The two previous posts give some good cookbook approach - like a Prima Guide (BTW who the hell is SP who is supposed to be less intelligent???).

The only problem I see is that I talked about MP and there is no AI in MP.......
Humbley,
ST

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"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

DrNo
10-31-2000, 11:44
Anssi Hakkinen, Your bit about the AI was a bit different to situation I found myself and Obake as well.

The AI stands away from the bridge but then moves in to the bridge as you cross. Not good when faced with a horde or archers etc..

My point is forget the bridge and look for a nice hill to defend on. Although Obakes point about chasing the routing army to the bridge sounds like a great idea.

Your battle where your 3 archer units killed almost 100 each only works well if you are not faced by huge numbers of enemy archers. In my attempts at the bridge defense my archers took out huge numbers but when the arrows are gone, it degenerates into a h-t-h melee at your end of the bridge with the AI still bringing on archer reinforcements.
If you defend on the hill, you still get good archer kill rates and when you are out of arrows, the AI has to move close to get his archers in range because of firing uphill. You can then counter these with h-t-h units. Soemthing you can't do when the rivers in the way.


Terazawa Tokugawa & Solypsist. All good attacking points but this post was looking at defending against the horde.

Shimazu Tokugawa, I think you read Terazawa's message slightly wrong.
It meant this is for (S)ingle (P)layer as a human is too intelligent to fall for the tatics. i.e. tatics to use against the AI.

10-31-2000, 15:29
That's what I meant Shimazu !

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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

Shimazu Tokugawa
10-31-2000, 16:38
It was a joke, you know, a joke!!!!!!

Obake thought this board is too cheerful, I believe it is still damn serious.

No offense, Terazawa I certainly understood what you meant.

Humbley,
ST



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"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

10-31-2000, 17:04
I like jokes !

This is a cheerful board compared to the complaints forum (you know all what forum I am refering to!)

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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

Obake
10-31-2000, 21:03
Shimazu and Terazawa!

You guys need to read a bit more carefully! lol

In my "is it just me?" thread, I was NOT referring to all of us participants on this forum, but the forum itself!!!!!

It thanks us for posting instead of saying something like..."God was that a stupid post!". It's not a question of how "cheery" we are, or how serious for that matter!

Obake

Sorry for the small off-topic Didz, but they started it! Send Ronin after them! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shimazu Tokugawa
10-31-2000, 21:18
Oops, guess we stepped on his toe....
Sorry from cool newbie to cool newbie!
Following the advice I will exercise my reading skills.
Humbley,
ST

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"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

[This message has been edited by Shimazu Tokugawa (edited 10-31-2000).]

10-31-2000, 22:51
We like shogun.

And nothing else matters....

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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

solypsist
10-31-2000, 23:44
oops.. didn't read your original post too closely.
the best way (undisputably) to avoid getting massacred attacking a bridge in MP is simply to not play one.
Or have your opponent give you a few more points.

but if you must, nothing beats a good cav army (I never thought I'd see the day I advocated cavalry in MP).

Methabaron
11-01-2000, 10:52
Ok, getting back on topic...

I am currently playing a multiplayer campaign with some friends (we arranged for a simple set of rules and stuff, Erado contact me if you want to know more http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif...).

The thing is that I am about to be attacked in Chikugo (river province) by a force composed of 30.000 koku; keep in mind I am playing with REAL people not the AI. My army is 15.000 koku.

The weather can not be predicted.

With this conditions, what type of army you would choose to defend and win the battle and how would you do it, how would you set up defenses?, i.e: close to the bridge or in the slope behind?

In case you dont think this battle can be won as defender how you think I could at least inflict heavy losses?

I have tried to recreate the battle with AI using the Custom battle option in Expert level and it seems difficult to have a win as defender with 15000k against 30000k. The max number of musketeers I used was 6, honour 5, maybe I should choose more honour and less than 16 units??, but what if it rains?

Any comments?

Metha



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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

DrNo
11-01-2000, 11:22
Intersting prob that one Metha, I would possibly go with the Monk rush defense and start on the hill high up at the back. Wait for enemy to cross the bridge and start coming uphill to you. Then simply rush and destroy.
Should try for the complete army rout in one go so no reinforcments come on to field of battle.

Alternative is to use Naginata to stand on end of bridge while your musketeers/archers fire away, then when initial assault breaks down counter with some WM to rout entire army. Thirdly you could just try holding bridge.
Actual army compostion will depend on what you want to try.

For complete defense you have to counter possibility of rain so select only 4 musketeers of low honour then 6 archers as backup. 4 Naginata and a few WM.

For counter bridge attack use more WM.
Monk rush speaks for itself. Try a couple of YC in there for rout chasing and perhaps a couple of YS for enemy HC,YC.

My choice would be bridge defense with Naginata and musketeers/archers.




[This message has been edited by DrNo (edited 11-01-2000).]

Methabaron
11-01-2000, 12:09
Mmmm, Thanks DrNo, I'll try those options with a custom battle.

Ive tried before something similar to the counter attack option you suggest but the honour of the g0ddamn ennemy is so high that routed units wont have almost any noticeable effect in other units... maybe having more monks is the solution...

I'll try your options and report back, thanks !

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

Didz
11-01-2000, 14:07
Terazawa:

Got my little book out and looked up some of Sun Tzu's advice on rivers.

As follows:

Quote On the march: after crossing a river, you must move some distance away from it. When an advancing enemy crosses water, do not meet him midstream. It is advantageous to allow half his force to cross then strike. If you wish to give battle, do not confront your enemy near water. Take position on high ground facing the sun. Do not take a position at the lower reaches of the enemy. this relates to positions near a river.[/QUOTE]

Seems to fit in well with the advice being given in this thread.

[This message has been edited by Didz (edited 11-01-2000).]

BanzaiZAP
11-04-2000, 02:33
I tried that out, and it worked like a charm! I had two archer/one musket units set up way back from the bridge as distraction, and the majority of the army were monks, no-dachi, a couple of spears/ashigaru, and two yari cavs hidden out of sight. At first was the usual showering of arrows, but when they started moving men over in force, my groups rushed out and caught his army with only about three units across, and a bunch more on the bridge. The first units collapsed fairly quickly, and soon most of his army was routing (due to his unit fragments routing into the disorganized units on the bridge!), and were chased off the field. Bear in mind - this was against the computer (on Hard), so a human wouldn't be as easy to lure across. Still, it worked like a charm with minimal losses.

-- B)

Anssi Hakkinen
11-04-2000, 05:33
(No, I'm not replying to Sun Tzu)
Quote On the march: after crossing a river, you must move some distance away from it. When an advancing enemy crosses water, do not meet him midstream. It is advantageous to allow half his force to cross then strike.[/QUOTE]Again, this trick, just like other tricks, only works in certain situations. BanzaiZAP had an army composed mostly of super-efficient HtH units, just the kind you want to use to hit a bridgehead established by an AI army (which has mostly YS and such, maybe YA, and not very high honour in any case). On the other hand, as I said in my previous post, the AI often uses this tactic itself, as it really is programmed to use Sun Tzu's advice. If you have WMs and No-Dachi across, and the AI counter-attacks them with samspears, it isn't you who's going to rout first. So the AI would actually be better off defending at the bridge, where your units would be forced to rush into his spears. General rule: if you outnumber him, choose a location of battle where you can hit him with the most forces (in other words, the bridgehead). If he outnumbers you, choose a location of battle where he can hit you with the least forces (on the bridge).

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"The ancient rule declares that letters are the left hand and militarism the right. Neither must be neglected."
- Hôjô Sôun