Correct use of Yari troops

[Ludens]

Because my current campaigning army consist for a large part of Yari Samurai, I started to wonder how the spear bonus works. Do individual yari samurai get a bonus against cavalry, or does that only apply when they are "Hold Formation"? I have searched in the archieve, but this only increased my confusion. I found this text from CA-member Longjohn2


Quote[/b] ]The "hold formation" melee mode only has an effect when a unit is in melee. It instructs the individual soldiers to hold their position within the formation, and not to rush in to fight the nearest enemy. Thus if an enemy unit attacks one end of your unit, all your soldiers won't rush towards that point. This order also instructs yari samurai and ashigaru to plant their spears, and so gain a defensive bonus ( sadly this is not represented graphically ).

So yari samurai/ashigaru get a defensive bonus in "Hold Formation"? Is this a "yari-only" bonus against cavalry, or the standard +2 defense of "Hold Formation"? In the latter case, do other trooptypes get that bonus too in "Hold Formation"?

All boiling down to one question: how can I most effectively use my yari troops?

[Orda Khan]

By using strategy......
I have never studied the stats of the game, I use units on the basis of what they are and what they are designed to do. Hold is something I'd use if I want the unit to do just that, long enough for me to flank etc. All these commands, it just depends on the situation

...Orda

[Puzz3D]

Hold formation takes -2 from attack and puts +2 on defense on all unit types. LongJohn's post says that yari inf get a defensive bonus when in hold formation. I think it's a fairly small effect, but I do use yari inf in hold formation with good results. When fighting cav I think your are better off using spears in engage-at-will because they will kill the cav more quickly that way. The bonus vs cav is quite large because the yari inf get +4 attack and the cav get -4 attack for a total difference of 8 points. Four points represents a 100% (2x) increase or decrease in chance to kill, so yari inf are getting a 200% (4x) combat advantage when fighting cav.

There can be a benefit to overall unit fatigue in hold formation because only men in the front rank will be fighting, and unit fatigue is the average all men in the unit. However, these advantages could be offset to some degree because you won't get multiple attacks on enemy men within a combat cycle while an enemy unit set to engage-at-will can get multiple attacks on your front rank men. A man only gets to strike at one enemy man in a combat cycle, so multiple attacks increase the killing chance without any chance of the multiple attackers being killed.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Dec. 24 2003,18:49)]Hold formation takes -2 from attack and puts +2 on defense on all unit types.
That would make hold formation the opposite of wedge formation?

Other than that, I suppose that during the intitial second of a cavalry charge, all bonus to defense is welcome, due to the large charge bonus for cavalry. So the the yari's should be first at hold formation, to absorb the charge, and then at engage-at-will to kill as many horses ass possible (provinding you haven't got anything to flank those cavalry). It seems the most sensible option (from a statistical point of view).

[Puzz3D]

Yari infantry cancels the cavalry charge bonus when charged frontally.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Dec. 26 2003,03:58)]Yari infantry cancels the cavalry charge bonus when charged frontally.
Now that is something unknown. Does this apply in only "hold formation" or in any situation (as long as individual yari is charged frontally)?

[Ludens]

Oops, I almost forgot
Where are my manners?

Thank you, Orda
Thank you again, Puzz3D http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Ludens

[Puzz3D]

Ludens,

Formation doesn't matter. The cancellation of charge is on individual men, but effectively it's the unit facing because all the men face the same way before contact. From what I can tell, the 45 degree line on either side of the perpendicular is the demarcation between "front" and "side". There seems to be four equal quardrants of 90 degrees which define front, back and the two sides. Visualize an X drawn over the unit and you have a mental picture of it. You can precisly find this 45 degree line by sighting down the unit diagonally. The diagonal rows line up at 45 degrees on infantry because the front-to-back and side-to-side spacing of the men is equal. The spacing on cavalry is slightly different being a little greater side-to-side than it is front-to-back, but it's still close to equal.

BTW, I completly agree with your idea of putting units in hold formation to receive a charge. That's the best way to minimize losses. The charge lasts about 2 or at most 3 seconds after contact.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Surely hold position is the one that gives the +2 defense, -2 attack? I do remember hearing that the strategy guide had mixed the two up though.

[Ithaskar Fëarindel]

Unless I've misread Shinano, that's what everyone here's said http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Dec. 24 2003,11:49)]Hold formation takes -2 from attack and puts +2 on defense on all unit types.
I was saying that it's hold position that does this...hold formation keeps the unit in formation...easy to mix them up.

[Puzz3D]

It's hold formation that shifts the 2 points from attack to defend. Hold position causes the unit to return to the position it held before it was attacked if it happens to drive off the attacker or in the case of ranged units to not follow a target that is moving back out of range.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Arrg http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif My manual has them mixed up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif Thanks for clearing it up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Togakure]

Thanks for all the good information folks.

[Random Ronin]

Well, I had looked into this a bit, and I found that when you set up the Yari, 3-4 ranks deep, in hold-position and hold formation, they will usually last MUCH longer than if I set them to engage at will/free movement. On one occasion, I had a unit of level 2 Yari-Ashigaru (Full armour/sword) set up on a bridge on holdformation/position, and they absorbed an army of 1500 Samurai of similar honour and they lost only 20 guys in 3 minutes (Yes, 3 whole minutes) and I can say that 10 of them were the result of my own arrows. I quit shooting and kept my Naginata/Warriormonks back and just watched how long the Yari could hold, and then, I decided to see what would happen if I let them engage-at-will, and within 15 seconds, I lost 50 guys, the rest routed. There was a massive pile of dead enemy at the spot where the Yari had held their ground, some 400 I would guess (Stats stated they killed 452 men during that battle, though they lost 73 of 120) but once I took em off the special settings, my yari piled up instead. So I would say that there is something to hold-formation/holdp[osition in defense.

On the offensive, Yari seem to work best when charging straight into the enemy in hold-formation, so I would say that hold-formation is a must (except when chasing routed enemy, then engage at will works fine.)

[Seven.the.Hun]

yeah, yari are basic catchall types, with those right ranks and the hold formation thing they last long enough to get the job done...always good to have at least 2 to 4 units of them or so in any army...
doing custom battles with like say 4 units of yari vs. 4 units of naginata or something like that, so men #s/armor/honor and all those things were equal, just different troop types...this always helped me get a feel for all troops when i first started playing shogun... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Surely what experience you're missing from MTW here is that if you engage your yari at will they will lose their rank bonus, as their formation collapses - therefore instead of 3 guys fighting one cavalry, its 1 on 1, which ain't good.

I'll admit i don't play STW now, but it was my impression when i played that this was the case. Spears 'work' because their formation allows mutual support to an enemy to their front - explaining their vulnerability to flanking, when this cohesion and rank support is lost.

[Ludens]

KyodaiSteeleye, in STW there is no rank bonus so it is perfectly possible to use yari samurai in engage at will without wasting their potential. Thin lines of yari samurai/ashigaru form quite effective cavalry shields.

I agree this is unrealistic since yari's are pikes, but this is just the way the game works.

[Kansuke]

Hi,

I never use hold formation on YS, engage at will is fine. Considering I have at least 3 YS in a typical army and that I haven't lost a 1v1 (30-40 games) lately http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Maybe because my missiles do the initial damage~;)


Kans