Use of Wedge/Close/Hold

[mbrasher1]

I was fiddling around with the Org's Unit Master Tools (see the download section), if'n you've never heard of it.

Apparently, the use of close, hold or wedge does not significantly impact the outcome of a one-on-one fight between two units, but it does affect the speed of the fight. Wedge makes it faster, hold makes it slower and close is in between.

So, if your SAP are facing a unit of inferior infantry, like urban militia or spears, they should be taken off of their hold and put on wedge. Then, when they finish dealing with their opposite, they can help another unit faster.

The unit tools program says that against a spearman, the SAP will win with 15% damaged, regardless of the formation chosen. Assuming the spearmen are on close, the SAPs will win in:

88 hits using hold
60 hits using close OR
34 hits using wedge.

So just because you are using pikes or spears, does not mean that you should only use hold. The main determinant is whether your infantry unit is any good compared to what it will fight. Putting it on hold will help a weak unit hold out longer against a stronger unit, to wait for help.

Perhaps the formation bonus is not considered by the unit tools program, but this is interesting. Usually, I do not put my boys on wedge except in special circumstances, like a main assault.

Anyone have any experience with wedge/close/hold?

[Revenant69]

Very interesting observation. I rarely use wedge formation. When i do use it then it is with my cavalry to cut through a thin line of enemy to relieve a surrounded unit.

I shall have to play with the unit master to see what other interesting stuff it shows.

Cheers.

[CBR]

I dont think the tool gives credible results for swords using wedge against spears. There are some special effects as wedge gives increased pushback and removes the spears rank bonuses. The tool does not give the results I have seen from doing custom/online tests.


CBR

[Ludens]

The only way you can be really sure about something is to test it in custom battles. Only the creators now how exactly the tool calculates battle, and in which way it differs from the real thing (I realize that calling the game real may cause severe copyright problems with the owners of reality http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).

However, custom battles have their own problems. For example, their seems to be deviation between results in Shogun custom battles and results in Shogun multiplayer. However, since I don't MP, I cannot say anything with certainty about this.

[Voigtkampf]

I agree, it's always best to do a custom battle and make sure about it… The last time I did it, I was testing Almughavars; with they first volley they've killed 8 regular spearmen, afterwards it was only 3-4. When they got to fire throw their javelins, that is…

Testing, testing, testing…

[CBR]

For what its worth I did make some customs tests for swords in wedge against spears.

Thread in Jousting Fields here (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=12403)

Although I havent made any large tests using standard close formation to compare with, it did show that wedge was clearly better for swords when fighting spears.


CBR

[Chaffers]

Wedge definately seems to help a unit's attack, even peasants sometimes make an impact when used on wedge. I'm guesing that it also decreases their defence, very useful if used against qulity troops that are tired, as I recall their attack suffers rather quickly once they lose a bar or two.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Chaffers @ Feb. 06 2004,10:09)]Wedge definately seems to help a unit's attack, even peasants sometimes make an impact when used on wedge. I'm guesing that it also decreases their defence, very useful if used against qulity troops that are tired, as I recall their attack suffers rather quickly once they lose a bar or two.
Wedge gives +3 attack and -3 defence.
It is not really worth it since wedge does not give very much disruption of enemy formation and the units who use wedge (chargers) usually have an already high attack and a low defence. So the attack bonus doesn't help them that much and the defence penalty does hurt them. Use only when your enemies will not put up much off a fight.

EDIT: Wedge bonus = +/-3, not +/-2

[RZST]

no use for wedge...well except for peasant control :).

[Ulair]

I noticed an interesting wedge effect the other day which set me wondering.

There I was trapped in Genoa castle with two half-units of Nubian spearmen, one AUM and an archer unit. Resurgent Italians knocking at the door with 6x my numbers, feudal knights, foot knights etc. Fortunately they'd placed their mangonel too close and it was disbaled before they'd made a breach, so they came at me through the gate.

Now, I lined up spearmen and AUM behind the gate, waited for it to fall, then charged into the gate, just in close, column formation. After some serious aggro, the Italians break off and I call my units back into the bailey to regroup. Here's the odd thing: they *automatically reformed as wedges*. Interesting, I thought, and when the Italians attacked again I kept the wedges and charged the gate again.

Now whether the wedges helped here in the confined space of a gateway, I don't know, but the auto change in formation may suggest they did? And hey, it worked After much slaughter, Italians broke off again, retreated outside the stoackade and sat there until the time limit expired. Six hundred feudal knights and sergeants, beaten by a few disciplined spears in a tight place If only they'd brought ladders... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Anyway, has anyone else seen such auto-formation-change behaviour, or know whether wedges in narrow spaces are the way to go?

[Sun Tzui]

Interesting thing Ulair... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif never happened to me before..got to try it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Ludens]

I do tend to get strange formations when I order my units to form up at the bottom of the 'camera view'. If have only seen this two or three times, and since I immediately reform I don't know if this was wedge or just close. Perhaps you did this too? Or perhaps you accidentally pressed W?

[Ulair]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Feb. 09 2004,12:07)]I do tend to get strange formations when I order my units to form up at the bottom of the 'camera view'. If have only seen this two or three times, and since I immediately reform I don't know if this was wedge or just close. Perhaps you did this too? Or perhaps you accidentally pressed W?
Hi, Ludens. Well, it's possible, although being new at this game (ain't it the business, though?) I'm not a big keyboard user yet. However, in my excitement at beating off hordes of Italian armour I could've pressed anything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

I'll try and reproduce it sometime.

Cheers

[Chaffers]

Strange, I find wedge really useful. If you just walk your men into battle then only the front dude actually gets to do anything, but charging in is a different matter entirely. Also no point in charging at the last moment, you need a good run up before you can penetrate the formation well.

I often do this with light cav and reserve units to good effect.