Yari Samurai or Spearmen

[Chimpyang]

Hey, what do you reckon is better in a fight, Yari Samurai or a equally large group of spearmen?

[Ludens]

Yari samurai off course. They were part of a warrior caste. Fighting was the purpose of their life.

[Ironside]

Unless we are talking about some elite unit of spearmen (does anybody know one in real history?), it's a huge victory for the yari samurai.

[Voigtkampf]

Yari win the day by ten lengths… In matters of equipment, moral and strength, very unequal fight, no chance for the poor spearmen…

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Ironside @ Dec. 25 2003,21:36)]Unless we are talking about some elite unit of spearmen (does anybody know one in real history?), it's a huge victory for the yari samurai.
The phalanx?

[Chimpyang]

Just to make it slightly clearer about the conditions of the fight: No flanking/enveloping and no height advantage to either side.

However, concerning the phalanx, i personally think that Yari Samurai would win, even against the phalanx as when it gets to close combat (not jabbing each other with Yari's/Pikes) the Samurai also are trained in a sword fighting technique.

[rasoforos]

guys , what makes you think that phallanxes were not trained in sword fighting? In mountainous and rocky greece you couldnt always deploy a proper phallanx , most of those guys had sword training.

hoplite swordmanship (http://www.hoplites.co.uk/pdf/hoplite_swordsmanship.pdf)

[Voigtkampf]

We were talking about spearmen, as in M:TW, I believe… Now I sense a debate coming up on the topic: what exactly is and what is not a spearmen?

Maybe there should be another thread, yari samurai vs phalanx, who would win?

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Ludens @ Dec. 25 2003,15:10)]
Citera[/b] (Ironside @ Dec. 25 2003,21:36)]Unless we are talking about some elite unit of spearmen (does anybody know one in real history?), it's a huge victory for the yari samurai.
The phalanx?

Oooppps forgot that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

But I meant in medieval history.
Does anybody know the historical aspect of the gothic sergeants?
The almughavars is somewhat elite spearmen but they seem to been fighting with alot of weapons.

Ax were Catalan Almughavars, who fought with a long spear, several javelins, and a big sword, but no shield. Very fierce.

[Morcini]

AYE
The yari have superior weaponry, better armer, better mental concepts of the art of war...PLUS THEYRE SAMURAI
I think the greater poll would be...warrior monk or the heavy janissary?

[el_slapper]

Of course. Samurai had by far a better training than Spearmen. The comparison is flawed. Better compare the best of each, Lancers vs heavy cavalry, or samurai archers vs vanilla archers.....

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (el_slapper @ Dec. 26 2003,04:16)]...or samurai archers vs vanilla archers.....
Err, ice cream?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

If we're talking regular type of spearmen, including what in the MTW game is considered a gothic, chivalric, feudal or something else sargent, it's not even a fair fight.

Why?

Well, if we pay close attention to the Yari Samurai's characteristics, one just flashes by:

-Most Yaris had in excess of 4,5 meters in length.
-Oda Nobunaga's Yari Samurai used a 5,3 meters Yari.

They were not spearmen. They were pikemen.

Historically, the only forces probably able to match the Yari Samurai's weaponery, training and dedication, were probably the Macedonian Phalanx, Swiss Armoured Pikeman and their Landschknet equivalent.

I can't think of any others... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 26 2003,14:43)]Well, if we pay close attention to the Yari Samurai's characteristics, one just flashes by:

-Most Yaris had in excess of 4,5 meters in length.
-Oda Nobunaga's Yari Samurai used a 5,3 meters Yari.

They were not spearmen. They were pikemen.
Indeed…

The spears of European armies were approx. between 2-2,5 meters, the lances by the end of 13th century were 3m or longer, but they've never reached the length of yari spears/pikes… Eventually the European battlefield degenerated into pike push affairs, with pikemen fighting up to 30 ranks deep, but the plain spearmen has simply no chance.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Eventually the European battlefield degenerated into pike push affairs, with pikemen fighting up to 30 ranks deep, but the plain spearmen has simply no chance.
That until the dominance of guns and artillery. The pike kept a diminishing usefulness until efective long range artillery and the use of the bayonet in rifles erradicated it.

The precise artillery was terrible against close concentrated formations of pikemen.

The number of pikes in battles keeps diminishing from the beggining of the 15th century to the end of the 16th. The number of muskets keept increasing at the same rate during that period.