Almohads

[mercian billman]

Im playing as the Almohads and, I managed to bribe Valencia and, Portugal. My problem is that aroun 1105-1100 the Egyptians attack me and, the Spanish break off their alliance to attack me and, I get sandwiched. I was wondering should I not accept an alliance with the Turks and, would that prevent the Egyptians from attacking me?

Any help with Almohad battle tactics would also be appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Thanks

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Bribe Valencia but dont take portugal, the revolt risk is high andyou dont want ot waste an army in garrison duties. I would also stomp Spain early and basically have Navare Aragon as the border as soon as possible (unless of course you want to play it slowly with opening hostilities yourself). I would also stay on the defensive against Egypt initially, send a good star heir and build up a nice army.

In terms of fighting the key is the Almohad urban milita (valour bonus in Granada) which can beat any other infantry unit in the early era, you might want as many as 6 units in an army, the rest desert archers/ nubians and ghazis and ghulam body guards (the only heavy cav you get until you can build normal ghulam cav) and add berber camels in Cyrenaica. Fight battles in the normal Catholic way, lin eof infantry, backed up by archers with cavalry/ muwahids (fast, good morale&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif on the flanks. In the desert use the berber camels for initial skirmishing and making the enemy march around unnecesarily.

PS re murabitin I have never managed to use them effectively so dont really know.

[Doug-Thompson]

Destroy one of those two opponents from the very onset of the game, then destroy the other.

I always destroy the Spanish first: Two provinces conquered, and they are done. That gives you the two very rich provinces of Leon and Castile, and no real rivals other than tiny Aragon. Attacking Egypt first takes longer and is likely to get you involved in wars with Turkey, Byzantium or both.

As for battle tactics, rely on Almohad Urban Militia early in the game. They are excellent, cheap armored infantry that slice through Egyptian peasants and spears pretty handily. Build a spear workshop somewhere early to give you some Nubian spearmen, which are excellent flank protection for the AUM's and good but relatively cheap garrison units. Back them all up with Desert Archers and whatever cavalry you can get.

As for the finer details of tactics, I like to make sure I keep my army in good order and keep pushing. In other words, don't panic. I've found, for instance, that Spanish jinettes can cause a lot of casualties to AUM but that whatever AUM are left will still slaughter the peasants and spears of the very early Spanish armies. The AUMs just have to keep in close order and keep pushing forward while desert archers take their own toll on the jinettes, or the AUM's get their own chance to get a hit in on the jinettes.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (o_loompah @ Dec. 30 2003,17:23)]Bribe Valencia but dont take portugal, the revolt risk is high andyou dont want ot waste an army in garrison duties. I would also stomp Spain early and basically have Navare Aragon as the border as soon as possible (unless of course you want to play it slowly with opening hostilities yourself). I would also stay on the defensive against Egypt initially, send a good star heir and build up a nice army.

In terms of fighting the key is the Almohad urban milita (valour bonus in Granada) which can beat any other infantry unit in the early era, you might want as many as 6 units in an army, the rest desert archers/ nubians and ghazis and ghulam body guards (the only heavy cav you get until you can build normal ghulam cav) and add berber camels in Cyrenaica. Fight battles in the normal Catholic way, lin eof infantry, backed up by archers with cavalry/ muwahids (fast, good morale&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif on the flanks. In the desert use the berber camels for initial skirmishing and making the enemy march around unnecesarily.

PS re murabitin I have never managed to use them effectively so dont really know.
I totally agree on Portugal but disagree on Valencia. Valencia teeters on the brink of revolt too for quite a while. The cost of bribing El Cid is too high. Yes, there is a danger of Aragon getting there first, but not much of one if you destroy Spain quickly.

Money spent bribing El Cid would be better spent on farm improvements in the other rich Spanish provinces.

I'd leave Portugal alone until the province of Eqypt was conquered, frankly. Egypt will give you enough money to make a "second-front" army to conquer Portugal, which will require its own large garrison anyway.

================

I don't conquer Aragon or Navarre. I like to leave the kingdom of Aragon alive as a "buffer state" between me and the more powerful Catholic factions. That way, those strong factions can only reach me by marching through Aragon by Crusade, or by sea.

Notice how Navarre can be reached by the Bay of Biscay and that Aragon can be reached by another sea region in the Mediterranean. I prefer to leave the Aragonean "buffer" intact and secure my Spanish coasts with two fewer fleets. Then I go conquer the vast, rich regions of Egypt, Palestine, Tripoli, and Antioch.

Navarre is on the Atlantic Coast. I want regions that will help me lock up control of the Mediterranean early on. If I can become the dominant naval power there, control of the Atlantic isn't far behind. Bonused dhows from Tunisia are nice.

===========

The bonused Berber Camels are from Morocco. Cyrencia produces bonused Saharan Cavalry.

[mercian billman]

Thanks for the advice guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wouldn't bribing Portugal prevent Spain from expanding also those Portugeese troops could also be used against Spain. It also seems like a good training ground for my generals and, elite troops to gain valour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Also has anybody use of Arab Infantry and, are they any good?

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Let Spain take Portugal and waster their money garrisoning the place It only makes taking Castille/ Leon that much easier.

I dont have VI so dont know about arab inf.

[NewJeffCT]

Portugal is always a problem. I'm playing as the Poles right now and control a good part of the Northeast section of the map (except for 3 Novgo territories and the now Horde controlled Khazar) - the Almos hold almost the whole rest of the map, including the Papacy. The only territory that consistently rebels from them is Portugal, and even the AI has gotten sick of reconquering it.

The Portugese start off with the most powerful cavalry in Western Europe with that unit of 40 feudal knights, so any faction that attacks them will pay the price.

I would definitely take out the Spanish fast, then bribe Navarre and take out Aragon. That gives you two nice choke points to protect your borders from the French & English in the North and the Egyptians in the East with Libya. Then, build up your farms and trade with shipping. Build your castles in Castile, Leon & Navarre so you can get metalsmiths, and you're all set.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Dec. 30 2003,22:32)]Thanks for the advice guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wouldn't bribing Portugal prevent Spain from expanding also those Portugeese troops could also be used against Spain. It also seems like a good training ground for my generals and, elite troops to gain valour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Also has anybody use of Arab Infantry and, are they any good?
Killing the Spanish prevents them from invading Portugal, better than anything.

We're not talking about a conventional build-up and attack, here. For instance, I normally leave one unit in Cyrencia along the Egyptian border, drop taxes to the floor to prevent rebellion and move EVERY other unit toward Cordoba on the very first move. This includes province governors.

My Caliph gets to Cordoba on the second move. Castile is invaded on the third. By the fifth or sixth turn, the Spanish are dead.

==============

Arab infantry are far more useful to the Egyptians than they are to the Almohads. I always have plenty of Almohad AUM by the time I can start building Arab infantry, and have a keep in Granada, which allows me to make bonused AUM. The sword-line place on the roster is filled.

[Game Over!!!]

You can take Portugal without fear of it rebelling. Just throw in a priest until Islam religion hits 30%. Invade with your army and bring in 5 to 6 spies after you invade. Those spies will keep Portugal from rebelling. I did this and had NO problems with Portugal.

[mercian billman]

Thanks for the help guys I dropped all taxes to very low, birbed El Cid moved all my forces to Cordoba and, began building AUM there. By the third turn I attacked El Cid led the attack in Castile and, my Caliph attacked Leon the Spanish were eliminated in five turns. I did have a rebellion in Valencia but, it was no big deal since only two of my men died. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

There you go. Now you can build up those rich provinces in Spain.

Next stop, Egypt -- or Portugal, if you really want it badly.

[mercian billman]

Im planning an attack on Egypt. Their troops are not very good and, their generals suck. Im also planning on using Portugal as a training ground for my less gifted generals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Dont forget Granada gives AUM +1 valour.

[mercian billman]

AUM just rip through everything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

France attacked England so I put my conquest of Egypt on hold to conquer Toulousse and, Aquitane. Turkey has been eliminated Egypt and, Byzantium are at war so far it's been back and forward Egypt attacks a Byzantine province the Byzantines retreat and, then attack a Egyptian province http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif No one dies

It looks like their both moving their main armies into Rum and, Lesser Armenia where I expect them to engage in a pitched battle. The Egyptian Armies consist of primarily Peasents with a few Ghulam Bodyguards and, Bedoiun Camels. Their only decent Garrison is in Egypt which only has lots of Nubian Spearmen(fresh meat for my AUM) and some cavalry which will be dealt with by my 2 units of Mercenary Italian Infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Dec. 31 2003,16:01)]Im also planning on using Portugal as a training ground for my less gifted generals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Or for your beloved grand inquisitors… Both is possible

[Fragony]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Jan. 02 2004,01:52)]
Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Dec. 31 2003,16:01)]Im also planning on using Portugal as a training ground for my less gifted generals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Or for your beloved grand inquisitors… Both is possible
Except that alhomads don't get grand inquisitors http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 01 2004,14:20)]AUM just rip through everything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Enjoy it while it lasts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Eventually, other factions will get better troops.

Don't neglect a navy, either. that will allow you to shift troops quickly to Egypt, or get them back if they are needed.

[Fragony]

AUM will be able to hold an enemy in place till the end of the game, just don't expect them to be killing machines later on. I sometimes use them as if they are spears, they are heavily armoured, and have great staying power. You have more then enough time to send ghazi or ghulam to the flanks, and a good ghazi hit is devastating. Combine that with some javelin/naphta and you have a very effective fighting force indeed. Still really haven't found a use for the berber camel though, even in desert they seem to suck. They get routed by bloody peasants.

[Mount Suribachi]

Hello Mercian Billmen from one Mercian to another http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


If you like nice long reads you might want to check out

Almohads (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=25;t=9506)

its the Almohad PBEM thread from The Throne Room. Everything you ever wanted to know about playing the Almohads, written in the style of a novel. It takes a few pages to get going past all the setting up of it, but when it does get going its fantastic. Just read SeljukSinans account of his reign (around page 5 IIRC) for a taster and you'll see what I mean

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Fragony @ Jan. 02 2004,13:45)]Still really haven't found a use for the berber camel though, even in desert they seem to suck. They get routed by bloody peasants.
Unlike foot archres, Berber camels have nothing to fear from most cavalry units.

Unlike most cavalry, Berber camels have nothing to fear from spears — if they are in skirmish mode and use their arrow fire. Some micro is involved, so you can still argue they are more trouble than they are worth.

Still, you can put them out in the open, relatively unsupported, and pour arrow fire into a unit of spears or peasants, for instance. If the oppositon charges you with, say, Saharan cavlary or even a less-than full strength unit of heavy cavalry, he's going to lose a cavalry unit when you switch to melee attack.

I leave Berber camels in a wedge, which doesn't seem to hurt their effectiveness as archers too terribly. I send them around the flank and shoot some infantry full of arrows. When the infantry routs, the camels are ususally behind and to one side of the enemy leader's force of royal cavalry. Then charge the rear of that formation. At the very least, they normally pin the enemy's leader down where other units can kill him.

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Fragony @ Jan. 02 2004,04:18)]
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Jan. 02 2004,01:52)]
Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Dec. 31 2003,16:01)]Im also planning on using Portugal as a training ground for my less gifted generals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Or for your beloved grand inquisitors… Both is possible
Except that alhomads don't get grand inquisitors http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Get out of here… Really??

Sorry, but I just can’t help myself sometimes… When someone says "Portugal" I go "Grand Inquisitors"… It has become a reflex…

[mercian billman]

My navy is all over the Med Baggalas were a big help the ability to move three Sea Lanes before other factions cannot be underestimated.

I sent an army into Friesland to destroy the German Shipbuilding capabilities they managed to drive all the way down to Tyrolia before they were defeated. The German king accepted my offer of a cease fire after he rnasomed my troops back. The French attacked Aquitane with 3600 men against my garrison of 950 men, I reppelled their attack killing 1800 Frenchmen(all prisoners were executed) at the end of the battle all that remained for me was 70 AUM, 50 Desert Archers, 6 Ghulam Body Guards, and 50 Italian Infantry(I recruit as much of these as I can). After the battle the French are now engaged in a civil War. The French have also elimanted the English except for their Crusading provinces(Khazar) and, a loylist rebellion in Wessex.

They're sending a Crusade to Aquitane but, Im not to worried as the crusade will have to travel through a lot of low zeal provinces because, I've sent Alims to most provinces to act as spies and, convert people to Islam http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It's to bad the Almohad PBEM is over http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif I would have enjoyed playing it.

On a side note will installing the VI patch(I just downloaded it) allow me to contimue my campaign? Or do I have to start over? and, what changes does it make to the game other than my Kaliphate living past 56?

[Bezalel]

Personally, I would just attack them at the same time, since they instigated the hositilies. Show them fear Don't be afraid to have all provinces pump troops (unless you go into debt). Just crush them both, then go into super tech mode.

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 03 2004,19:33)]On a side note will installing the VI patch(I just downloaded it) allow me to contimue my campaign? Or do I have to start over? and, what changes does it make to the game other than my Kaliphate living past 56?
You should be able to continue it, but in some cases it may crash. Just try.
The changes are the 56 bug has been fixed as well as the reinforcement order bug and some quicksave and MP issues, IIRC.
I have to say I'm pleased with the patch.. I noticed no more obvious glitches.

Arab Infantry are good desert warriors, but if you plan on using them outside of the desert, wait until you can train them with armour upgrades at least, otherwise use AUM combined with Ghazis and MS.

Oh, and try playing the Almohads in a less aggressive manner, it's a much nicer challenge.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Jan. 05 2004,02:51)]Oh, and try playing the Almohads in a less aggressive manner, it's a much nicer challenge.
I prefer wanton aggression. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Matter of taste, I suppose.

Seriously, I think many of the very good rules of thumb on this forum don't really apply to Muslim factions. I think Muslims should always be played agressively.

Here's another example. There's absolutely no doubt that having specialized "military provinces" is the way to go with Catholic factions. You should put all the military upgrades there and get super units.

However, Muslim factions have Jihads, which can be launched from many provinces all at once. If you have only a few "specialized" provinces, only jihads from those provinces will produce good units. The rest will produce trash.

However, if you spread military improvements around as a Muslim, you get a large number of Jihads with decent units.

[Bezalel]

Doug, that is exactly what I love to do. I purposefully lose a province then declare jihads on the province and get lots of troops for less than they should cost. Then rampage around w/ them once the province is taken back.

[mercian billman]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Jan. 05 2004,02:51)]
Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 03 2004,19:33)]On a side note will installing the VI patch(I just downloaded it) allow me to contimue my campaign? Or do I have to start over? and, what changes does it make to the game other than my Kaliphate living past 56?
You should be able to continue it, but in some cases it may crash. Just try.
The changes are the 56 bug has been fixed as well as the reinforcement order bug and some quicksave and MP issues, IIRC.
I have to say I'm pleased with the patch.. I noticed no more obvious glitches.

Arab Infantry are good desert warriors, but if you plan on using them outside of the desert, wait until you can train them with armour upgrades at least, otherwise use AUM combined with Ghazis and MS.

Oh, and try playing the Almohads in a less aggressive manner, it's a much nicer challenge.
After reading the Almohad PBEMs and, what other people wrote. I thought I was playing in a less aggressive manner.

Never thought of purposefully losing a province and, then declaring a Jihad. Do you get extra GA points for doing so?

[Mount Suribachi]

I don't think you even have to lose a province - I think being forced back into your castle is enough to launch a Jihad - though I may be mistaken. I always liked to have a couple of Jihads lying around, just in case http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Deliberately losing a province just to launch a Jihad is somewhat cheesy though.

I would say you *must* be aggressive in Early. The Elmos have a very short tech tree - their heavy cav is average, their spearmen suck, they don't get Bills or Pikes and come High they start seriously getting left behind. The Elmo trump card are the AUM who are able to beat virtually every unit in early. In my experience the only things that could stand up to them were Order Foot (bloody carnage on both sides) & Swabian Swordsmen (went through AUMs like a hot knife through butter). AUMs, built in Granada with the valour bonus, must be the core of your army, and you must use them early & often whilst they are still the best troops around.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

I agree with Mt Suribachi, in terms of units Almo dont improve much and unlike Turks/ Egypt there is nothing worth waiting for. Also I dont think Almo have any historical generals so the first few princes you get are the best you have before your line starts to decay.

btw PBEM are always going to start aggressively as the players will want to show off to an extent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I wish there was a PBEM where players had to make bad decisions

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 06 2004,06:56)]After reading the Almohad PBEMs and, what other people wrote. I thought I was playing in a less aggressive manner.

Never thought of purposefully losing a province and, then declaring a Jihad. Do you get extra GA points for doing so?
I'm not sure, try it. But I think you get them only once if you hold those Jihad provinces in Outremer.
For other jihad provinces you get no GA points, of course, unless they belong to your homeland.

The reason for not being aggressive is that you will soon have a fight on your hands with Spain/Aragon, perhaps a little naval invasion by the Italians/Sicialians and maybe a war with Egypt if you don't treaty them very early. So, a good challenge.
The Almohad units are indeed nothing to write home about, but they are still almost perfect in the desert even in late. All the Catholic heavy stuff will roast there so being defensive and having good generals, you can easily keep your home provinces. However, it is essential to build the gold mines and farming.

[Leet Eriksson]

jihads also work when you have recently conquered a province and then got kicked out of it...

Also i think invading a province and retreating can also be "jihaded" of sorts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Bezalel @ Jan. 05 2004,19:06)]Doug, that is exactly what I love to do. I purposefully lose a province then declare jihads on the province and get lots of troops for less than they should cost. Then rampage around w/ them once the province is taken back.
Oh yes. That is a lot of fun.:)

After completing multiple jihads and getting a ton of troops, I sometimes go on a rampage. I delete every building in a province I don't want to hold, use the gold to create more jihads, then move out. and do the same to another province.

The barren province rebels or is taken back. Then you declare new jihads:D

As for it being cheesy, all's fair in love and war.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 06 2004,00:56)]Never thought of purposefully losing a province and, then declaring a Jihad. Do you get extra GA points for doing so?
I don't know, but your ruler definitely gains piety and garners more loyalty from his generals. Influence is gained, too, I think.

It is also denitely true that you can declare jihads on provinces where your garrison is still holding out in the fort or castle. I've done that many times.

[Vlad Tzepes]

Quote[/b] ]I was wondering should I not accept an alliance with the Turks and, would that prevent the Egyptians from attacking me?


Never count on diplomacy... You'll find out, the hard way, that your allies only wait for the right moment to betray your sorry a**... In MTW, of course.

[Mount Suribachi]

yeah, but its still better than STW - an alliance there meant absolutely nothing at all

[mercian billman]

The point of diplomacy is to delay a war so you will be able to fight on your terms. That's how I see it and I believe it's still true today.

Haven't been able to play all week http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif So I haven't tried Jihads yet, but now the Weekends here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

You're in for a treat. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif