help with javelin troops

[Court Jester]

One thing I could use help with is javelin foot troops ... I have very bad luck with them and wonder if and how you guys use them.

Whenever I use javelin troops against enemy archers my javelineers are usually cut to ribbons before they get within striking distance. Against infantry or cavalry, I find that the AI charges the javelineers and (assuming I've left the javelineers on skirmish) the javelineers run back to keep the distance, never having thrown the javelins. So either the javelineers fall back behind my spearmen lines, at which point they are disorganised or too far back to attack properly, or the javelineers are caught by the enemy troops and invariably slaughtered.

I've tried various tactics in custom battles to find an effective strategy, but never had much luck. Consequently I don't build javelineers anymore.

Do you use javelin troops? If so, what type(s) of enemy do you target with them? Where do you put them on the battlefield, in both defensive and offensive situations? What formation do you put them in, and how deep?

(By the way my question only applies to footies -- I actually have great luck with jinettes, which I find are fast enough to back out of trouble, can do quite well in H-to-H and are phenomenal for flanking.)

Thanks for any help.

[katar]

i have used Kerns from time to time.

don`t put them on skirmish, don`t put them on fire at will either, they just aren`t smart enought to last long that way.

use them to flank the enemy once you have engaged them or place them directly behind your frontline troops when you advance.

when the front line engages the enemy have your javelins target the enemy as well, it gives a nice one-two punch to the attack.

if you attack archers, distract them with another unit as archers will cut you up before you get in range.

when you attack any unit with javelins, use two or three of them grouped together and have them all fire on that one target, concentrating your firepower on one enemy unit maximises the damage as does firing upon several enemy units that are crammed into one spot.

if you are harassing a lone enemy unit try to surround that unit and start friing, that enemy will try to attack one of your units, move that javelin unit backwards, but keep the other two firing upon it. this totally confuses the enemy and he sometimes freezes in position and gets wiped out. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

be very careful if you are using them to attack cavalry (they are faster than you), so try have some spearmen or trees nearby, so that you can withdraw quickly when necessary.

all of this requires you to keep your eye on them and micromanage them to a degree, but in the right circumstances they really can get the job done. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Random Ronin]

They are not really a lone-wolf unit. The trick is to use them with another unit. My favourite method is to line up 3 Korean spears, about 3-4 closed formation ranks deep, then have 2 skirmisher units in ranks of 2 right behind them (I also keep 1-2 Guardsmen units following this group, so as to drive home my breach of the lines). When I get within range of enemy archer fire, I loosen the spears ranks, who are still walking, rushing the skirmishers forward in run mode, closing the gap fast. The archers sometimes keep shooting my spears, ignoring the skirms until it is too late, and whammo I let loose a volley, killing a few enemy, while having my spears close ranks and run to close the gap. If I aim facing a small enemy force of weak melee units like Archers, I send my skirmishers in to assist the spearmen, or if the enemy is tough, I pull them back, either reforming them on the flanks to intercept enemy troops coming in from the sides, or to form a new battle-group.

I figured this out while studying actual use of javelins in reality, which called for elaborate scripted and coordinated sequences. For example, the Roman legions would close the distance, waiting for the enemy to throw their own javelins, then forming the turtle shield defense, which absorbed the incoming spears, then immediately, they [the Romans] would have their own javelineers rush up and fire a massed coordinated volley, crushing the enemy. By adapting this real-world tactic, I have managed to prevail with Koreans against many veteran Samurai (Both human and computer controlled), if not minus a significant portion of my Army gone to feed the worms. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I suggest you get the medmod, it makes the kerns a whole lot more useful by increasing their range and making them closer to a spearman type troop than a peasant, so you can use them like spearmen but with a bonus volley of death, as well as flankers.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]If so, what type(s) of enemy do you target with them? Where do you put them on the battlefield, in both defensive and offensive situations? What formation do you put them in, and how deep?

sorry, forgot about this bit.

go for enemy units that can really mess up your own attack plans, specifically any high value/valour/anti-armour enemy unit, like swordsmen, pikemen, billmen, these types of units can ruin your own ranks if they get a bite on you.

i never bother to totally destroy any enemy unit, only deplete it but about 30 - 50%, after that you`re wasting ammo that could be ruining another units day.

if you get the enemy to rout instead of totally wiping it out it will take longer for enemy reinforcements to arrive as it has to wait for the routed unit to leave the field before it can deploy a new one.

if you do have most of the enemy routed, javelin men are good for running them down and racking up the kill and capture stats.

they can be worth their weigh in gold in a desert enviroment, they don`t tire out as quickly as other units, unless you have they loaded down with armour.

don`t bother attacking archers with javelins unless you really have to, leave them for the light horse to deal with.

i keep javelin men about 4-6 ranks deep, unlike archers, who work best when they are only 2 deep.

if i am doing a straight assault on the enemy, the javelins go behind my front line, as i mentioned in my first post they have the ability to support the front line by lobbing their javelins overhead, into the enemy ranks, you may loose some of your own men to friendly fire, but it`s worth it.

skirmishing; don`t do it without backup, a unit of horse or spearmen can deter the enemy long enough for you to withdraw your javelins out of danger.

flanking; this is what they are good at. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
pin down the enemy with spearmen, send your javelins to the sides or to the enemies rear and let fly.

run your mouse cursor over the enemy ranks and wherever you find an enemy unit that is getting the upper hand, just target them with the javelin unit at their rear and let fly, it saps their morale and gives your front units a bit of help.

i think that`s everything iv`e learned so far. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Ludens]

Random Ronin,

Korean Skirmishers (STW) are the Mongol unit that is best defended against missile fire. They have the highest armor rating (excepting cavalry) because they cary a large shield (STW does not have shield modifiers, as the Korean Skirmishers are the only units who use shields). They are also not very fast (how would you be, when you have to carry four javalins, a sword and a very large shield?). So I don't know if STW-javalin tactics apply to MTW.

Other than that, I'm going to try it out this afternoon in custom battles Do you use 1.02, 1.03 or 1.05 unit-statistics?

[Random Ronin]

I was not aware of anything apart from v1.02, though I have seen some of the unofficial modifications along those lines.

I am also completely aware of what the Skirmishers are all about, but that is not relevant.

There is one factor that must be heavily emphasized with the Javelins, in that they are one of the greatest morale drainers in the game of STW:WE, as even the stoutest of Samurai, including level 3 Warrior Monks, seem to waver (If not just run) after about 2 volleys, and Ashigaru are running at the sight of them at times. IF you really want yto do good, just get 5-6 skirmisher units and put them with about 8-10 other units of varying types, and autocal the battle, and I will bet money that 90% of the time, the Mongols win, even if it is 2-1 in the Samurais' favour.

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Dec. 31 2003,20:23)]they have the ability to support the front line by lobbing their javelins overhead, into the enemy ranks
That's the ticket

This is how I use them. I never lead with them. I always use them in a support role. They can quickly cause massive damage to any unit.

[katar]

if anyone has played the viking era they should try out irish bonnaghts(sp?).

they throw spears instead of javelins, very damaging. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
on the down side, each man has only one throwing spear.

but the amount of damage 100 thrown spears can do is great (only the front rank throws the spear, so if thew are five ranks deep you can get four decent volleys out of them before you go hand to hand).

after they run out of spears they revert to your basic light spearmen.

i use them in the same way as roman legionaries, get them close to enemy, let loose with a volley of spears and then charge the enemy unit.

as the irish have no archers i support them with kerns on the flanks and rear.

as irish units are fairly light you have to use more mobile tactics with them, they don`t fare too well in a meat grinder, but they are good for hit and run tactics. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[mercian billman]

I find Javelin troops are great against infantry. Pin the enemy down with the first line send your Javeliners in back and, let throw their javelins until they run out.

Javelins also work great against rebels who don't have missle units. You can have them charge straight into the enemy and, let loose a volley. If the unit has been hit by missle troops they'll usually route after the Javelins hit them.

I find that javelins usually kill more people per volley than archers. The problem is putting them into a position where they can use their javelins.

[Random Ronin]

Using Skirmishers to support an attacking group requires just one thing, the acceptance of serious friendly fire.

That is the flaw in using skirmishers on units you already have engaged with standard melee units. If you got lots of cheap guys, expendable and mostly useless, then it is a good idea, but you also have to take into account that you are devastating your own morale, possibly causing your unit to route, which may cause other soldiers (Including your own skirmishers) to waver or route as well if they get good view of. In STW, Samurai are often more likely to laugh at fleeing Ashigaru rather than be discouraged, but I am not aware of such distinction in Medieval Total War, so be wary of using this tactic. I personally have used it in times of dire emergency, when my men were mostly likely gonna route anyway if they didn't beat the enemy fast.

[mercian billman]

Thats why you must have the javelins flank the enemy. It takes practice but when it works you usually route the enemy after one volley.

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 02 2004,21:14)]Thats why you must have the javelins flank the enemy. It takes practice but when it works you usually route the enemy after one volley.
That will work only to an already battered down unit or a low moral cheap peasantry and alike… The penalty for being hit with javelins is the same for being hit with normal missile fire, arrows and bolts, I believe… Never heard anything else being claimed…

[mercian billman]

A good javelin volley will usually kill about 7 people. If your men are behind the enemy and, have them flanked your friendly fire casualties will be low. The problem with javelins is they require alot of micromanagment sort of like horse archers, except they require alot of coordination with your other units. I've never had a friendly unit route from a javelin volley. Using skirmish troops doesn't mean you have to accept lots of friendly fire(when they're used properly) but, you skirmishers may suffer high casualties if they operate behind enemy lines.

[mercian billman]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Jan. 03 2004,00:31)]
Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 02 2004,21:14)]Thats why you must have the javelins flank the enemy. It takes practice but when it works you usually route the enemy after one volley.
That will work only to an already battered down unit or a low moral cheap peasantry and alike… The penalty for being hit with javelins is the same for being hit with normal missile fire, arrows and bolts, I believe… Never heard anything else being claimed…

You are correct javelins can't act alone they do require help from other units. I believe your right about the penalty for being hit by javelins being the same as arrow fire but, more people seem to go down and, units usually route after one maybe two volleys probably because you are behind the enemy.

I believe that some Javeliners have a Armor piercing bonus but, Im not sure about that.

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 03 2004,03:28)]
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Jan. 03 2004,00:31)]
Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Jan. 02 2004,21:14)]Thats why you must have the javelins flank the enemy. It takes practice but when it works you usually route the enemy after one volley.
That will work only to an already battered down unit or a low moral cheap peasantry and alike… The penalty for being hit with javelins is the same for being hit with normal missile fire, arrows and bolts, I believe… Never heard anything else being claimed…

You are correct javelins can't act alone they do require help from other units. I believe your right about the penalty for being hit by javelins being the same as arrow fire but, more people seem to go down and, units usually route after one maybe two volleys probably because you are behind the enemy.

I believe that some Javeliners have a Armor piercing bonus but, Im not sure about that.
If I remember correctly, the penalty is -6, and is applied as soon the first men goes down. Afterwards the penalties go for 1/3 of men down, 1/2 men down and so on, but they are smaller - can't remember the exact amount, though.

I personally never employ javelins as an attacker, since they require way too much micro management and don’t generally fit my way of warfare; hardcore of armored infantry with highly maneuverable cavalry flanks, with limited missile support of max 2-3 units. If I get them as a defender, I make the best out of them…

[Fragony]

I love the almo javelinmen. Ever since I saw 1 unit of them whiping out a unit of gothic footknights they are my friends. They are especially great against slow moving troops like halberdiers/footknights, they normally have the time to do 3 succesfull volleys before the enemy is close, yup they die after contact, but I don't care. They are cheap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mercian billman]

Voigtkampf Javeliners are best used on the defensive they can be effective on the offensive but, that requires alot lore micro managment than using them on the defensive. If the enemy has little or no missle troops javeliners use the javeliners(with missle support) in frontal attacks this will put the enemy out of position and, inflict severe casualties.

Fragony Murabitin Infantry are probably the best javelinmen in the game they'll probably die but, they are cheap.

[Jomsviking]

I have played the Hungarians in SP campaigns and found those troops that they had were pretty useful specially Szekely. I had high hopes for Jobbagy and used them couple of times on the offensive, but either they just ran before throwing a single javelin or got hit and took a beating. After that I mainly used those few that were left for garrisons and free up other troops. Later in the game the Horde arrived and since I had control over Kiev, it was certain that they would invade there after taking Khazar and Crimea from Byzantine, 2 Jobbagy were stationed there along with other units and I rushed everything in and Hired every merc available. After beating them of in about 5-10 battles I found that javlineers are quite effective against units that are trying to cross rivers. I had my Jobbagy fire into the group trying to cross along with mixture of archers and ballistas. After that I held the javelinmen of all kind in higher regard and now employ them mostly were enemy troops might have to cross bridges.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

any kind of missile troop excels in bridge battles, and considering you only get 4 shots with each unit of javmen, imo they are actually one of the crappier units to have on a bridge battle, seeing as how the enemy rarely crosses a bridge unless they have a far superior force.

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] ]Voigtkampf Javeliners are best used on the defensive they can be effective on the offensive but, that requires alot lore micro managment than using them on the defensive.

Well, I can sure tell they never get a key role in my army, defensive or offensive, and I can think of many other units better suited for the defensive positions and fending off the attack.

Aside that, if I had to go for the best javelin unit, I'll go for Almughavars - if you ever manage to dig them out from those Inns without modding the game.

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] ]Javeliners are best used on the defensive they can be effective on the offensive but, that requires alot lore micro managment than using them on the defensive.


Well, I can sure tell they never get a key role in my army, defensive or offensive, and I can think of many other units better suited for the defensive positions and fending off the attack.

Aside that, if I had to go for the best javelin unit, I'll go for Almughavars - if you ever manage to dig them out from those Inns without modding the game.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Javelin units are of good use, but in IMHO, only in a defensive role were you can use terrain to your advantage. The reason for this is because of the terrain and placement advantage that you have. Bigger protection for your units, longer range and slower oponents.
However, some units are more effective than others:

1-Spanish Jinetes - Mounted Javelin - Fast/Strong Melee.
2-Almughavars - Spear/Javelins - multi-role.
3-Murabitin Infantry - Large Shield/Javelins - good protection from missiles.

Other interesting units, that I haven't tried yet:

-Irish Dartmen - Longer range.
-Bonnachts - Large Throwing Spear - multi-role.

[mercian billman]

Javeliners can still be good on the offensive as long as you're will to accept high casualties.

I find that Murabitin Infantry work well in this role as their shields offer them some protection from missles. I like to send them in first with my Saharan Cavalry before a battle starts use the Saharan cavalry to lure enemy units out and, have the Murabitins flank them and, shower them with Javelins.

If it works real well you might route the enemy unit. At the very least you will cause the enemy to break their lines to engage them. Murabitin Infantry and, Saharan Cavalry are cheap so I don't worry about losing them. Better them than my AUMs or Ghazi's.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Murabitin Infantry and, Saharan Cavalry are cheap so I don't worry about losing them. Better them than my AUMs or Ghazi's.
Sure, but the routing penalties aren't good, if you make some mistake.

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 04 2004,14:51)]
Quote[/b] ]Murabitin Infantry and, Saharan Cavalry are cheap so I don't worry about losing them. Better them than my AUMs or Ghazi's.
Sure, but the routing penalties aren't good, if you make some mistake.
Indeed. I here far too many arguments about cheap units, but they take 1 slot of your army, which can be decisive, and when they get slaughtered and route they inflict the moral penalties on the entire army.

[Brutal DLX]

Well, only non Elite troops get penalties when a cheap peasant unit runs. If you are playing SP, a small rout can be stopped and reinforcements be brought in, but in MP you can't afford to waste one of your 16 slots unless you play for fun or have a really smart plan.
If you plan for a longer campaign in SP, with mulit-stack invasion armies, it's always good to have a few javelin men in your opening army. If you are superior in morale and command, you can use them to support from behind your frontline, if not, then either use them as a bait or flank with them once the battle has been joined. They have armour piercing, so shoot for the heavy stuff.

[Court Jester]

Thanks for all the help guys. I agree with the assertion that the foot variety of javelineers are better used on the defensive, rather than the offensive, which does take too much micromanagement I think. This weekend I had my first effective use of javelineers; post-Crusade, I was defending Antioch against a massive Turkish army; I arranged my spearmen in a crescent with 2 javelin units immediately behind (and archers behind them). Of course the AI hit me with their best troops first, which was largely Ghulams; on a hill, my spearmen held (barely) the first charge of the ghulams, but within seconds the javelins (set in hold formation) had reduced the ghulams to so much horsemeat. After that I sacrificed the javelineers to chasing down fleeing peasants from the successive waves, and the javelin troops are quite good for that given their speed.




http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Fragony]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Jan. 05 2004,01:39)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 04 2004,14:51)]
Quote[/b] ]Murabitin Infantry and, Saharan Cavalry are cheap so I don't worry about losing them. Better them than my AUMs or Ghazi's.
Sure, but the routing penalties aren't good, if you make some mistake.
Indeed. I here far too many arguments about cheap units, but they take 1 slot of your army, which can be decisive, and when they get slaughtered and route they inflict the moral penalties on the entire army.
Not all battles I play are to win. Sometimes I just want to hurt them a bit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif When I am done hurting them and it gets dangerous I withdraw. Troops like javelins are really helpfull then, they have great initial damage.

[The_Emperor]

Personally I never leave without at least one unit of Javelin armed troops in my army.

I throw my lot in with the Spanish Jinettes and those Almughavars as being the most useful.

Spanish Jinettes I love, through using one unit of Jinettes and throwing all their Javelins, I reduced a 60 Man unit of Almohad Urban Militia down to 17 men... The survivors didn't stand up too well when the Unit of Jinettes drew their swords and charged

Almughavars I find are great, its a real shame they are so rare to find. Their dual ability is great, stick them off Skirmish and Onto Hold Formation and they will do great... Giving off a volley of Javs before holding together as a unit of Spearmen.

Never underestimate the power of a good Javelin volley into tight armoured formations. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[thomonkey]

i heard that the javelins in RTW are gonna be much better. THey better be, or else....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I throw my lot in with the Spanish Jinettes and those Almughavars as being the most useful.

Spanish Jinettes I love, through using one unit of Jinettes and throwing all their Javelins, I reduced a 60 Man unit of Almohad Urban Militia down to 17 men... The survivors didn't stand up too well when the Unit of Jinettes drew their swords and charged

Almughavars I find are great, its a real shame they are so rare to find. Their dual ability is great, stick them off Skirmish and Onto Hold Formation and they will do great... Giving off a volley of Javs before holding together as a unit of Spearmen.

Never underestimate the power of a good Javelin volley into tight armoured formations.
Very true. I try those same tactics sometimes.




Quote[/b] ]i heard that the javelins in RTW are gonna be much better. THey better be, or else....
If you find them uneficient, just MOD them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mercian billman]

The Javelins in RTW should be better than MTW because the legionaires threw their Javelins before engaging in melee battle.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The Javelins in RTW should be better than MTW because the legionaires threw their Javelins before engaging in melee battle.
You're talking about Roman Javelins or Roman Pila? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

If it's Roman Javelins, their stats should be between MTW's javelins and MTW's Darts.

If you're talking about Pila, their stats should be between MTW's Heavy Spear and MTW's Javelins.

I think it's historically more accurate. Don't know about gameplay though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif