Shogun

[Ja'chyra]

I play MTW/VI but have recently bought STW/WE, I'm now wondering if it's worth the bother of loading it up or to keep playing MTW.

I've heard people who switched from STW to MTW saying that MTW is much harder and I don't really see the point of switching to an easier game.

So my question is, finally I hear you say, is it worth playing STW? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Ludens]

STW has less units, but they are more balanced. The map is smaller and more intimate. De battle engine is almost as good as MTW, only some details have changed (most notably the absence of a spear-rank bonus). I have heard, but I do not know for sure, that the battle-graphics of STW are slightly superior. But STW's main trump is the ambiance. You've got a trown room to meet emmisaries, you have beautifull small movies which show the succes or failure of your ninja's (these movies have identical beginnings, so you don't know wheter you will have succes untill the end) and of course it has the charm of a different culture.

I understand that MTW is more difficult because it is more overwelming, and several things have changed. These things often burst upon unexpecting STW players (for example: more rebbelions, you cannot expand as quick, ashigaru peasants are much more reliable than MTW peasants).

Rest assured that tactics in STW will be just as refined as in MTW.

[frogbeastegg]

Yes, most definitely worth it As Ludens says Shogun is miles ahead in atmosphere but it has many other things to its credit. I wouldn't say Shogun is easier than MTW, just simpler in many ways, for example there is no trade. This is balanced out by factors like harvests which are missing from MTW - come back after 4 bad harvests when your starving peasants are rebelling and you have no money left to guard your lands or build even the cheapest upgrades and tell me it is easy. Then get hit by an earthquake and invaded by a neighbour Harvests are quite random but when you get many bad harvests together, especially at the beginning of the game, life gets very tough. The rebels also act as a unified faction in Shogun so a lot of rebel owned provinces means trouble for you.

Shogun isn't that hard but neither is MTW when you know what you are doing.

The best reason for playing Shogun is that you have already purchased it, so unless you want to waste your money you'd better grab a yari, put your kabuto and do on and join the fight.

[Ja'chyra]

It was in the 3 for £20 bin, so not too fussed about the money.

Going by what you say though I'll give it a try tonight.

Cheers me dearies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Ludens]

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

To the Shogunate

[antek]

From my experience, shogun is only fun with the addon installed. Before that, it seemed really unfair with the AI, ie. it had infinite arrows...

The tree models are definitely better in Shogun, but the way units move, as if they were gliding on the earth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But still, it is worth a try...

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (antek @ Jan. 02 2004,13:39)]From my experience, shogun is only fun with the addon installed. Before that, it seemed really unfair with the AI, ie. it had infinite arrows...
No, no, NO, the AI defintly didn't have infinite arrows. Not now, not then. There has been a lot of discussions about this (see a few entrance hall pages back, the post about limiting ammo), but it didn't.

It does, however, cheat. In STW without expansion, the AI could deficit-spend, allowing it to have huge armies. The AI also seems to be able to see invisible units (shinobi, ninja's but also on the battlefield (ambushes), but this could be because you cannot hide your generals unit), but this is just hearsay. Anyway, the AI is just an AI, so it is stupid. Therefor, it is allowed to cheat because otherwise it would to easy.

In the expansion and the Warlords edition, the deficit spending was abolished, making the game easier. STW veteran Shinano once wrote that he prefers STW to STW/MI because it is harder. But, personally, I like the throne room and the new units to much.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Quote[/b] (Ja'chyra @ Jan. 02 2004,06:24)]Going by what you say though I'll give it a try tonight.
Word to the wise, forget everything you thought you knew about archers and arquebusiers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Personally I found original shogun much more challenging than the expansion or Medieval...

[Ashen]

For 10$/£5 you cant go wrong with shogun.

The atmostphere is far superior to MTW, but I find MTW a much better balanced game, with better less pixelated graphics and much better in battle control and number crunching.

And both are more challenging in their own ways. I would definatly buy it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (although I already have it so I dont have to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)

[Ja'chyra]

I am installing it as we speak, type, now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[rasoforos]

From a person that played STW/WE AFTER playing MTW for many months:

Yes its definately worth it. There might be fewer units but the atmosphere of the game more than makes up for it.
Since the units are fewer you will not be able to just win with umbers and troop quality like you could do in Medieval , you ill have to use more tactic and military genious to overcome your opponents and in higher dificulties the A.I will sometimes give you a really good fight. In addition the game map will offer new challenges since some factions have lands in 2 different areas and have to defend both or make crucial strategic decisions on what to sacrifice.
I mentioned the atmoshpere before , i think you will love it because it exists and surrounds the game in a way much stronger than in medieval ( play the game in Japanese language , not the english with japanese accent , btw). The throne room is a very nice addition as well.
All in all the game will definately not bore you , it will offer you a lot of ood guality gameplay hours and give you a nice deviation from medieval.


NOTE : DO NOT BUY SHOGUN AT 3 FOR 20...Sold out has just released it for £5 and in a 3 for £10 offer.

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]NOTE : DO NOT BUY SHOGUN AT 3 FOR 20...Sold out has just released it for £5 and in a 3 for £10 offer.

..or get it for $1.50 from Turkey bwahhahhahhahhahaaa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WarHawk1953]

Ja'chyra,
Difinately Shogun:WE is worth every penny you spend on it. Had loads of fun as the Shimuza Clan without the Mori. The AI can and will surprise you. There are manuals on the web. Search for them at the totalwar.org.

I started with this game and then got ME. I tried to use those ME peasants like Japanese peasant Yari Ashigaru against Cav. Got My rookie tailed kicked number of times before I learned, I need spearman

[ichi]

Kensai, Geishas, Battlefield Ninjas, the Koreans, ninja movies, the Hojo Horde. Makes me want to go back

Enjoy it mate

ichi

[Foreign Devil]

Ohhhh... the ninja movies.... I hope to god that RTW will do something similar. Or, even better, that they'll make a sequal to shogun using the Rome engine, and with new and improved ninja movies

I admit that I cheated... I went into the files and watched all the movies at once.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[BDC]

With Rome they could make the movies in-engine, that'd be cool. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (BDC @ Jan. 03 2004,13:17)]With Rome they could make the movies in-engine, that'd be cool. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I think you overestimate the abilities of the RTW-engine. Yes, the men can perform simple movements (walking, changing weapons and of course attacking), but things like: trow rope, pull in, pull up, move stealthily, lean, trow knife at guard, run, open door, cut head off sleaping figure require a lot more work, and that only for a few movies. We are talking about an RTS, not an FPS.

[frogbeastegg]

All the men in RTW are supposed to be motion captured, for the cutscenes you just motion capture someone chopping heads and paste an appropriote body onto it. I think I remember one of the developers saying that event movies are in on the .com forums a while ago.

Back to the question of Shogun being easy, I started a game as Mori on hard, 1580. Within 10 years I am being attacked on 4 provinces each season by rebels, Oda and Shimazu. I have 436 koku left, my border armies consist of around 300 men each in a multitude of worn down units (I have a whole 23 warrior monks and that is it for advanced troops ) and my reserve consists entirely of the 11 men making up my Daimyo's hatamoto I am beating off armies twice my size and far above me in technology but without at least 8 units of new troops being raised very soon I will slowly be ground down. Shimazu backstabbed me and Oda is riding a wave of ashigaru straight at me. The rebels are trying to kill me to escape from Oda, a foolish decision as they are being ground down by Oda and myself. If I hadn't forced the AI to retreat from the battlefield several times without any actual killing I would be long gone by now. Sun Tuz was right when he said Enemy go left, you go left. Enemy go right, you go right. Sit on little mountain and pull faces at foe, soon they get fed up and go home

I can expect to gain about 1400 koku next harvest unless I get another poor harvest - if I do then I will be bankrupt, worn down and finished off by starving peasant rebellions. If it is a good harvest I can raise some yari samurai and reinforce Harima, Bizen and Inaba and maybe pull through for a bit longer. Nogato can survive as it is for now. Peace with Oda and Shimazu, followed by rebuilding the border armies into cheapo large armies (ashigaru, ashigaru, ashigaru ) and a strike into Sanuki and the island to gain some much needed farmland will save my behind if I can just hold on until a good harvest without losing too many men. I only hasve 1 emmessary though so who to be nice to first....Shimazu I think, Oda are fighting rebellions of their own.

This is the most fun I've had in Shogun for ages The first camapaign in over 2 years where I have been fighting for my life and scrimping koku to buy a unit of ashigaru while being grateful for their cheapness and using them against warrior monks (eep ) and winning somehow (double eep ). Much better than the game of MTW I abandoned due to chronic boredom, making that camapign the latest in a long line I dropped after 100 turns.

:lights incense and prays for a good harvest:

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Jan. 03 2004,14:58)]All the men in RTW are supposed to be motion captured, for the cutscenes you just motion capture someone chopping heads and paste an appropriote body onto it.
All right


Quote[/b] ]I think I remember one of the developers saying that event movies are in on the .com forums a while ago.

This just gets better and better I can almost forgive them for postphoning the release 6 months.

Almost.

[Ludens]

I almost forgot:

IMPORTANT WARNING: do NOT let one of your heirs fight in the same battle as you daimyo

After the battle your heir will have disappeared The unit he commanded does not even have to suffer casualities, he just goes missing. This is a bug that is not adressed in any of the patches.

[Maedhros]

I think it is a risk, I've had heirs survive that. They are very likely to die though. Never put more than one family in any one place unless they are totally safe or you very desperate.

[desdichado]

STW without MI addon is pretty tough - first few games (I only got STW couple of months ago) I was wiped out by massive armies I had no idea where they came from or how AI could afford them - then I found out about AI deficit spending.

Current game (as Mori) I have the AI held but can do nothing more as every turn he throws 5000+ armies at me (about 800-1000 men in my army) and I can only afford to replace lost troops, not much else - I have fought 15+ almost identical battles in the same province every season - only time I changed my deployment to liven things up I almost got outmanouevered so stopped doing that.

I was surprised at just how hard STW was without addon but glad I bought it even with the bugs although I have MI now so will probably install soon.

[makkyo]

STW>MTW
Enough said. The Japanese wars seem to be more action-packed alond with the auesome videos http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but MTW doesn't have http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

The videos almost by itself makes the game worthwile.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif