Clans

[Fuh Teng]

I just noticed that the most popular clan amongst those who have voted are the Takeda. Why is that? I have always loved their Cav and great (if koku poor) starting position. So who and why do the rest of you like?

The Fuh (:

[Catiline]

Cav to start, so you can slaughter the enemy dogs, esp when they rout, which equals quick conquest into Hojoland.

They have to coolest colour

They have Takeda Shingen

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Bis peccare in bello non licet

[Shiro]

Quote Originally posted by Catiline:

They have Takeda Shingen

[/QUOTE]

What else do you want? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Vesugi Kenshin perhaps?
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Satake]

Haven't you guys ever made your own ubertaisho? I used to place gazillions of shinobi in Hitachi so a lot of "Satake" troops would revolt , and when they'd succeed i'd bribe them into my own army... I've had an Ubertaisho named Satake and he didn't have to become a daimyo thus vulnerable to dying of old age http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[TakedaShingen li]

yes the takeda is i think the skilled worrior and he strikes fear in to people that why they respect takeda i respect him too esspecially TakedaShingen http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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Takeda:cavalary legend

[theforce]

Takeda is more powerful now when cav are not more powerful. Some quick attacks can destroy some clans really quick, too like Hojo and you can get their provinces. Watch yer provinces near Mori though.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[Catiline]

I usually abandon htose and use the troops to quick kill hojo

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Bis peccare in bello non licet

[Whitey]

ok then - what have they got then?

takeda have the coolest general
takeda have the best colour
takeda have starting and cheap cavalry
takeda start near *everyone*
takeda have two different areas
takeda have easy access to 'hojoland'
takeda start with ports

...ooh yeah!

[Sjakihata]

Cool enough... but... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Well, I like Uesugi, mainly because of they try to use Sun Tzu strategies, thats enough for me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif, and then they have that archer thing...!



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"-Know your self, know your enemy and your victory will be painless.
-Know the weather, know the terrain and your victory will be complete."
-Sun Tzu(Wu), The Art of War.

[BomilkarDate]

Uesugi rules,

Have you ever fought with 8 archers and only two Yari units to defend mutsu against incoming Takedas (16 units)? I had some of the best battles there and my archers just shot their Cavs into little pieces. (I think today we call this nuclear fission.) You dont believe how many parts a takeda cav has.

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Strength and honour

Bomilkar Date

I just use white/ronin in MP because like that I'm always in the centre on the battlefield. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Remember positions in a 2v2+ depend on your colours...

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[evilc]

imagawa/togugawa rocks, latest campaign, with their BN, i got bored winning battles. takeda got the best colours for MP though.

[Gothmog]

The only reason I don't like Takeda is: that clan is just too easy. No challenge at all.

Great generals, cheap cavalry, nice start position, whatelse do you need? It completely spoil the fun and challege of the game.

That's why I like Mori better. Those iron sand provinces make this clan such a fun to play.




[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 01-29-2002).]

[Cheetah]

Quote The only reason I don't like Takeda is: that clan is just too easy. No challenge at all. [/QUOTE]

well, if u rush the hojoland during the first few rounds then indeed not very challenging. ...but give Hojo a few rounds and try to hold Shinano instead, I bet it will give u a bit more challenge.

BTW, here is my evaluation of three clans. just three cos I have not played the others. I think they are boring. perhaps Mori is not, but I dont like the colour http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Best general:
1,Takeda Shingen
2, ???
3, ???

Best colour:
1, Shimazu
2, Imagawa
3, Takeda

(btw Tera, Shimazu would give u the center position as well. Takeda gives the flank, Imagawa the left flank reserve)

Safest position:
1, Shimazu
2, Takeda
3, Imagawa

Most promising position:
1, Takeda
2, Imagawa
3, Shimazu

Best unit:
hmmm... in the early game Takeda cav. invaluable, but later on Shimazu NODS are very handy, so
1-2, Takeda/Shimazu
3, Imagawa

Game challenge:
1, Imagawa
2, Takeda
3, Shimazu


so, for me its a 3:3 draw between Takeda and Shimazu. Perhaps Shimazu a bit boring if u dont meet the hojo horde http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ... so Takeda wins!!!

If I have white and you have green, I will have centre. The old tale that Shimazu gets centre is quite a lie if one of your allies has white.

It's just a matter of colours...
White, green, red, yellow, light blue, black, purple and blue.



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Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)

[Katasaki Hirojima]

I like the Uesugi too. I like Cavalry but I love archers. Not to mention the fact there leader LOOKS SO COOL. Uesugi has the coolest looking Charecter. Followed by the Hojo then Takeda.

I mean, if thats what -I- look like..*sigh* I wish.

Besides that, fighting with archers is great in the campaigne because it dosen't cost you money past the innitial investment to give archers weapon upgrades. Effectively makeing them 3-0-1 Melee units with ranged abilities. However, in custom battle mode you have to pay for each archer, which SUCKS.

On that note, I wish upgrades were cheaper and honor more expensive, or something, cause as it stands the campaigne produces more 'realistic' armies. Custom armies favor cheap stuff wayyyyy to much because the weapon/armour/honour upgrade cost are based on the cost of each unit, not a flat investment. THus makeing WM worthless and Ashigaru the kings. You chould lower the koku, but thats reduces everything to a lower level. Like cutting a tree in half then setting the half back up.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[AggonyShim2]

well guys i hate to butt in but... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif we all know that the Shimazu clan is the BEST clan to ever set foot on the feild. the falcon men will forever soar over the other competition http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Lord make me fast and accurate...

[Krasturak]

Gah!

Everyone knows that ODA Clan is the best!

Their men wear YELLOW!

And they get the cheapest guns, too.

Gah!

[Fuh Teng]

Doesn't Kenshin come along at the same time as Shingen? Oda and Imagawa get Hideyoshi and Ieyasu who are great, but by the time they show up the game is already over.

I like using Shimazu and then inheriting easter lands like Uesugi. Only happened twice but it sure is fun.

BTW, how do you bribe?

The Fuh (:

[Gothmog]

Well, if you start at 1530, Takeda Shingin is the only great historical figure that comes into play. Usually by the time Uesugi Kenshin matures, the main struggle is over. And if you get to see Tokugawa Ieyasu, you are dragging along for too long.

However, you can play those late campaigns. In the 1580 campaigns, Shingin has already died.

You bribe the enemy by drag a priest or embassay onto the AI's banner. The price varies depends on the quality and quantity of the troop, the rank of the army leader, the distance of that army from their own daimyo. Heirs can't be bribed.

There are several cases when bribery can be real rewarding:

1) When you play Mongol Invasion campaign, you can purchase those elite Mongol cavalry while player hojo.

2) During the early stage of the campaign, you can purchase those "advanced" troops that your own clan can yet produce.

4) During the end stage of the campaign, you can bribe like mad to seriously reduce the garrison of those highly defendable AI terriotery. And you can choose either to let the "rebellious" army fight with the remaining garrison to furturely weaken the ememy, or simply disband the whole army that you just purchased.

For example, if I play those late campaigns, the AI clans sooner or later will have guns, and that could be a royal pain in the butt when I need to attack a bridge province. What I do, is usually try to bribe the armies with most guns in it.

[TakedaShingen li]

All know the Takeda Clan is the most populair and i think they are the best http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Takeda:cavalary legend

My favourite clan was always "Imagawa" just because they got Tokuguwa Ieyasu as a heir.

But I use white/ronin online just for tactical reasons. (I get centre)

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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser. http://terazawa.totalwar.org/malta_md_clr.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)

[Moriboy]

Think of the voice of Dana Carvey's "Church lady": Favorite clan? Mmmmmmmmm, who could it be, who could it be...Could it be... MORI?

I like them best because of the sand provinces and the cheap monks. They're poor as dirt starting out, they've no Shingens or Kenshins to endow their armies with honor by extension, and the road to Hojoland is a long one. All in all I think the Mori offer the best challenge. That, and red's my favorite color...

[evilc]

hence your name http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif imagawa rules.

[Vlad The Impaler]

i think that Takeda is one of the easiest clans to play in the campaign ( after Hojo )
i love to play with Imagawa/Tokugawa or Oda;both are chalennging and u have to deal with a lot of enemies; and for my point ...the best campaign is starting from 1680; all clans have strong base and upgraded troups;is fun to play Uesugi too..u have a lot of enemies ( especially the great Takeda and Hojo ) and later u ll have Date Masamune which is a great general with very high rank;
but Takeda is just too easy in every campaign;( btw i finished with all clans on expert )
Mori is also an match ;no great general and low koku;and facing the Shimazu's ND is proudy difficult in the early stages of the campaign)
Shimazu is easy ; u have an great position and great warriors and once u get some of Mori's provinces u can go for yamashiro and than put down the horde from the north http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
so that's mu choice :
1.Imagawa/Tokugawa
2.Oda
3.Mori
4.Uesugi

[Vlad The Impaler]

mea culpa: 1580 not 1680 LOL http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Tac]

REAL power is weilded by the Uesugi and the Imagawa.

Uesugi because of his archers and wealth. I routinely use 14 archer armies with 2 monks or no-dachis or naginata to provide stand-off melee protection.

Look at it this way: You want to win? Kill the enemy Taisho or make units rout. Enemy Taisho usually heads his forces on the attack or defense.. and hello! 14 archer units... you tell them all to fire on the taisho's unit.. *THWACK* by the 3rd or 4th volley the taisho unit is either routing or the Taisho is killed. Archers arent that bad in hand to hand either, they can easily dispatch yari ashigaru, and if in a forest, they rule yari samurai and enemy cavalry. Only monks, no-dachi or naginata can threaten them.

As a bonus, even if they field a 16 unit army of monks to come against you, you just line up your archers on the edge of your map (hill) and wait for them to come.. and only when they about to overrun you do you give the order to withdraw. You will lose, but you will kill a LOT of them. Return next season with same archers, kill as many as you can and withdraw. Repeat until there's so few monks that the enemy doesnt put up a fight and witdraws from province.

IMAGAWA have an excellent advantage with their shinobi. make 2 shinobi for every 1 unit you field.. and use them to make rebellions all over. ninja, useless and screwed up in their success % as they are in the game, can still be very usefull, specially if you manage to get a hold of IGA. I routinely make around 15 ninja (from many different provinces) or more and send them against my allied Daimyios. one of the 15 will succeed (and if not, one of the next batch of 15 will!)... result: free land, free troops and no risk.

Ironically, TAKEDA are my best "clients" for ninja. You kill their clan off while being their allies and you get a LOT of cavalry to play with *grin*

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Ok now everyone knows Imagawa/Tokugawa is the best clan in this game. FIrstly if you are starting off early, you have Imagawa Yoshimoto. Rank 5 aged 15/16. Now he has a nice long time to mature before Shingen Kenshin Nobunaga and Hideyoshi are even born.

I think the easiest clan to be in terms of being able to stay alive is ODA. Have you seen how many sons you produce...Your wife is very fertile http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Takeda is fun at the beginning but it makes me bored after a while, simply because it does.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[KensaiAkechi]

First off Iwagawa/Tokugawa and Hojo are my favorite clans. and...sorry to stray off topic but how in the hell do you retrain armies in WE???

[Sakurai, Saionji]

The Uesegi were my favorite clan just cus uh dark blue is cool and uh, the guy looks cool.
Right now Mori is my favorite. Although I can see the road ahead of me is hard.
I dont have the MI expansion so theres no bribing and stuff but I allied with Oda but they attacked me but i repelled them.
But I was so scared lol that I immediatly got a cease fire with them and then allied again just so they wont attack me for a little while. I totally got Takeda away from me in one year though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Im poor as dirt though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif and I dont see why everyone loves these iron sand provinces. Its not like having an armoury in every singe province is that much of an advantage. I don produce troops in every province anyway. And the green is probly my third favorite.

[MikeSan]

:::::::Like Krast would say: Gah!
If you ask me, I agree with Krast 100 %!!! Oda rulez! Oda Foreva! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Yellow is a nice colour, it looks best. And they have THE hero himself: Oda Nobunaga!!! (I think everybody here knows what he has done...)

Well anyway I'll ever choose Oda except when i play with Krast, he's too fast in choosing Oda for me..... lol::::::::

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Oda Nobunaga yes he was a legend but he was assassinated (i think?) So he never became Shogun. Tokugawa Ieyasu WAS shogun. He had the skills to claim the title and he did so. I agree he was lucky in that Nobunaga gave him the Kanto (Hojo area in STW) and so he got the richest lands in Japan, but still he needed skills of leadership and the understanding to become Shogun which no-one else managed.

I agree that Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi are almost at the same level as Ieyasu, but they never reached the title of Shogun (Hideyoshi never could!)so Ieyasu was the sole unifier of Japan.

The Tokugawa dynasty ruled for 240-250 years after Ieyasu took the title Shogun, which shows a real power.

But the others had different dreams. Hideyoshi was an expanshionist. He was the only one of the three to look beyond Japan's shores, and actually attempt to conquer other countries. (This is his Korea War which he never saw happen because he died).

The main aim was for the Dragon Throne of China.

But back to my point Tokugawa Ieyasu was firstly a hostage so to get out of that, then take over a falling clan build it up and challenge (and overcome) the strongest of opposition at that time in Japan is by far better than Oda Nobunaga who was born into the leading family in the strongest clan of the time. He simply took over command Ieyasu built up his family and clan.

To cut a long winded post short Tokugawa Ieyasu and the Imagawa/Tokugawa clan are the best because of his (their) acomplishment and persiverence.

*falls over and dies from lack of oxygen*

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[Gothmog]

Hello Toda Nebuchadnezzar:

I suppose we could go on and on and on and on about who is the greatest of the three. But then don't forget that if not for the untimely death of Takeda Shingin and Uesugi Kenshin, none of the three could ever have a chance at all. These two are considered the war gods of Japanese history, and they WERE virtually undefeatable.

Oda Nobunaga wasn't "born into the leading family in the strongest clan of the time". He could have been easily overwhelmed by Imagawa Yoshimoto. But he changed the history by a daring and desperate ambush. He laid foundation for both Totoyomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu, and if were not for the unbelievable stupidity of Akechi Mitsuhide --for Akechi had no chance to secure the shogunate with Totoyomi and Shibata Katsuie at large--, he would probably be the Emperor himself (it's said that he wanted to be more than Shogun).

Totoyomi Hideyoshi, as you said, was the only one who aimed outside of Japan. Of course his ambition caused great suffering in Asia, almost destroyinng Korea. But you have to admit that he was a man with dreams.

The only reason that Tokugawa Ieyasu eliminated Totoyomi line was simply because: he had a longer life span than Hideyoshi, while the latter wasn't wise enough to borrow sperm secretly so that he could "sire" an heir in time.

So you see, while it's Ieyasu who built his dynasty in the end, all the above mentioned historical figures would have become the one. Tokugawa Ieyasu was a great man, but there were others who were just as great or better.

[Tac]

"Oda Nobunaga who was born into the leading family in the strongest clan of the time"

Wrong. When Nobunaga became Daimyio of the Oda, his clan BARELY owned 1/4th of Owari. He had to overcome many minor clans and his own cousins/uncles that ruled the rest of Owari and unite the province. This he did when he was less than 20 years old (he became Daimyio at 15!). And even Owari was a pennyless province.

Hideyoshi Toyotomi entered service with the Oda first as a Sandal Bearer for Nobunaga, and moved up the ranks to become the leader of a small squad of men (which he led in the desperate battle & brilliant ambush of the Imagawa forces). In fact, if you play that scenario in STW, one of the Oda Ashigaru is sure to have Toyotomi in the ranks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

"But then don't forget that if not for the untimely death of Takeda Shingin and Uesugi Kenshin, none of the three could ever have a chance at all"

Very true. The Takeda and the Uesugi were the superpowers of the time. When these leaders died, their successors were inept and unable to keep the clan alive. Heck, Takeda Katsuyori was killed in a battle with Nobunaga. A battle he wouldve easily won if he hadnt been such a blockhead.

Kenshin and Shingen were the only thing keeping other clans from fighting each other to death because of alliances or because any offensive action would weaken their home provinces' defense.. and the Takeda and Uesugi were renowned for grabbing land from those that went to war with anyone but them.

Goth, Toda :

Ieyasu only become shogun after Hideyoshi died. The only thing Ieyasu had was patience. Hideyoshi had all the power in Japan and was for all purposes, the Shogun until he died. It is thought that he did not have an heir because his own origins wouldve also denied any of his heirs title or wealth. He did get married and had several mistresses, and it wont be suprising if he had children with those ladies and sent them away in secret to prevent their assassination.

There's a verse most Japanese children are taught:

And what if the songbird wont sing?

Nobunaga says: "Kill it!"
Ieyasu says: "Wait"
Hideyoshi says: "Make it want to sing".

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Indeed Tac many points you stated are true.

But after Hideyoshi's death, Ieyasu and his supporters massed against Hideyoshi's heir (Hideyori???) therefore he was the under-dog who had to beat most of Hideyoshi's supporters.(Some went over and joined Ieyasu) he had to defeat Ishida (cant remember surname) at Sekigahara. That was basically Hideyoshi vs Ieyasu and hideyoshi deserters.

Ieyasu had to defeat what Hideyoshi had carved out and did so. Therefore I feel that Ieyasu is better than Hideyoshi.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"

[Tac]

He only did that after hideyoshi was safely dead. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Also, I believe that Hideyoshi's "heir" was also a small child while Ieyasu did all that, it was Hideyoshi's bickering generals that messed the whole thing up.

It happens to all despots anyway, once they died and dont have a mature, ruthless heir, the whole thing crumbles.

[MikeSan]

Wow guys, i am really impressed by your knowledge about japanese history (and i thought i would know much http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ) - it is incredible....
It was really interesting to follow your comments.
Well at least there is one clan i have never played with: The Imagawa

I am now wiser.

MikeSan

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Indeed Tac, but I feel it was just a matter of time before Ieyasu challenged Hideyoshi's right to power. Many would have supported Ieyasu because of his noble birth.

For all those who don't know Hideyoshi was not a samurai. He was as Tac said an ashigaru at first and was raised in the ranks because of his un-natural ability to command vast armies. Therefore Hideyoshi could not claim the title Shogun. He was given another title that was basically the same in rights but not the same title. In the book SHOGUN by James Clavell, Hideyoshi is I think the general NAKAMURA who dies. (TORANAGA being Ieyasu) Nakamura had another title even though he ruled like a Shogun.
I think that because of his 'common' birth line Daimyo would tend to swing towards Ieyasu if there had been a show down between the two.
Yes Hideyoshi's heir was young (three i think...) and yes his generals did argue, but they managed to get their act together for Sekigahara.(at the battle many on Ishida's side swopped during the battle to fight for Ieyasu. I think they swopped because of money but also because they recognised Ieyasu's noble birth over Hideyori's common birth line.)

(its like in America, only a person born in US can run for president.)

Ieyasu had the noble line and so could claim the title properly.

Anyway just my two cents... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Tac]

"For all those who don't know Hideyoshi was not a samurai. He was as Tac said an ashigaru at first and was raised in the ranks because of his un-natural ability to command vast armies. Therefore Hideyoshi could not claim the title Shogun."

Not exactly true. Hideyoshi was the only son of a samurai footman that was maimed (and disgraced because he had to leave being a samurai and becoming a farmer) when Hideyoshi was just a baby. He had samurai blood. But you have to remember that in those times, samurai were just soldiers serving a Daimyio, it wasnt until AFTER the Hideyoshi became the Taiko that the Samurai class became the elitist group of warriors we all read about in books (SHOGUN by Clavell best example). The Taiko was the one that set the class system in stone I believe.

"He was given another title that was basically the same in rights but not the same title. In the book SHOGUN by James Clavell, Hideyoshi is I think the general NAKAMURA who dies. (TORANAGA being Ieyasu) Nakamura had another title even though he ruled like a Shogun."

Yes, Clavell made his characters very similar to them. But if I recall, he described Toranaga's past as being quite different from Ieyasu's. Even still, its very close http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

"I think that because of his 'common' birth line Daimyo would tend to swing towards Ieyasu if there had been a show down between the two. Yes Hideyoshi's heir was young (three i think...) and yes his generals did argue, but they managed to get their act together for Sekigahara.(at the battle many on Ishida's side swopped during the battle to fight for Ieyasu. I think they swopped because of money but also because they recognised Ieyasu's noble birth over Hideyori's common birth line.)"

Yep yep. Although im sure lineage didnt matter in the first place. The only real lineage of importance was that of those related to the emperor.. being related to an ancient clan of shoguns was not exactly "useful". But it sure was something to rally people against the Taiko's heir and grab power hehe.

All's fair in love and war http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

That is right the title was Taiko.

I didnt know that it was Hideyoshi who organised the class system. I had always understood that it was one of the things Japan prided itself on from its earliest days as a single country.

I think the reasoning about the lineage is actually very important. Afterall when becoming Shogun if you stick with the end movie it talks about the clan being of noble decent and so you were able to claim the title Shogun.

Am I right in thinking that the samurai were not actually of the clan, but simply fought for them as that way the samurai were paid??? Or were they all from the families that linked to form that clan. If they were from the families then there must have been one hell of a lot of families in one clan, and sum serious love-making going on.

Ieyasu claimed i think 75,000 at Sekigahara. True not all were from his clan, many were from other clans that simply supported him. But surely 20,000 or so were his clan and so how many fo those were his kin and how many were just being paid to fight for him.
There is no doubt that Ieyasu was not afraid to spend his money, sumtimes carelessly. Almost all of the deserters from Ishida's army to Ieyasu were because he had bribed them to his side.

But going back to the noble lineage, after reading a fantasy series by Raymond E Feist and Janny Wurts I realised that the fantasy world they had described and written a story through was almost exactly based of the Sengoku Jidai period of Japanese History. In the books a lady becomes head of a house(clan) and she has to become the most powerful house in the empire to avoid being destroyed by her enemies. This is done through alliances, and wars(even though the wars are usually against the emperors will).

If you are interested in reading this series talk to Papewaio. His name is one of the characters in the series.(I only just realised)

Tac you may find some very obvious resemblences to Ancient Japanese history/life and culture.

P.S. Am I right in thinking that Hideyoshi died before the raids on Korea started, and yet they were carried on even after his death? If so isn't this very uncommon, as a successor would have had to have been chosen quickly (a regent for Hideyori) and so these raids/invasions would not have commenced and possibly never happened if the successor had other plans? Your input please Tac...

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Gothmog]

Toda Nebuchadnezzar San:

I think you took the "lineage" thing too simply.

Of course Toyotomi Hideyoshi couldn't claim shogunate because of his common birth, but he ruled like one for years.

The name of the title never really matter, it's the power to rule that really counts.

As a matter of fact, even though Hideyoshi can't lay the claim, his heir Hideyori can. Hideyoshi's principal young wife Lady Yodo (whose child name was "chacha"), is the mother of Hideyori. And Lady Yodo was the daughter of Azai Nagamasa and Lady O-ichi (O-chi was Nobunaga's sister, and her 3rd daughter O-go was the wife of the second Tokugawa shogun, Hidetada. ).

That gave the heir Hideyori enough lineage to claim shogunate, IF he survived and matured in time.

During the final show-down between Tokogawa Ieyasu and Ishida Mitsunari, Ieyasu won because he was a better strategist and he was very good at bribery. It has VERY VERY LITTLE to do with the noble birth thing. After all, Hideyori was just as "noble" as Ieyasu.
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PS. The raid to Korea was initiated by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the great "dreamer". The raid wasn't rewarding enough, so after his death, the troops were withdrawn.

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By the way, James Clavell's SHOGUN is a great book alright, and I read both the English and Chinese version of it.

However, it should be only be enjoyed as a novel, i.e. fiction, not a history book. He was wrong about so many historical facts, both intentionally (for the sake of the plot) and unintentionally (probably he didn't know enough about Japanese history).

[Sakurai, Saionji]

I believe the proper spelling of the word you are looking for is Taikou. It means literally archduke, and is the word from which the english word, tycoon, is derived.

[Tac]

Yes, Cha-Cha was his mistress and then became his wife after Hideyoshi's wife passed away. Hideyoshi first married the daughter of one of Nobunaga's samurai (an Archer).. I think her name was Nene.

Toda, Im not sure about most of the things you asked, but I can find out. Im quite sure that Hideyoshi DID send armies to Korea.. and failed. Ishido and Toranaga in SHOGUN make refences to serving him in Korea.

To the Samurai/Lineage question:

It was the same as it was during the Middle Ages in Europe. At first, a KNIGHT was any doofus that was mounted on a horse and fought for a lord, and he in return received land or payment in return for his services and loyalty. In Japan a Samurai at first was anyone armed with a sword that served a Daimyio that was recognized by the shogunate or the Emperor. Thats where the term RONIN came from, masterless samurai (who's master was not recognized as a Daimyio by the courts). In Japan however, the Samurai soldiers became RETAINERS of the lord, not just mere soldiers. Think of a retainer as a stockholder of sorts. He was given a position, a pay, and a place for him and his family to live on.In times of famine and war, that was priceless. If he distinguished himself (in battle usually) he would be given more power, more "benefits". And since it was a rule that if your clan was wiped out, any and all of their belongings were up for grabs, the retainers would lose everything..and they would have a hard time achieving whatever status they had inside their clan if (and IF) other clans accepted them. More often than not, defeated clan samurai would be executed or had to become Ronin or farmers.

It was also a generational thing. If your grandfather, father and now you and your son served the same clan, your family name would rise in status. Soon, most of the Samurai serving a lord became like an extended family.. and fiercely loyal. Some peasant families would become samurai families in a first generation.. then on the 3rd or 4th, if they had served with honor, they sometimes got the chance to wed into the Daimyio's family.. usually one of their daughters. But that was enough to claim noble blood (heey, sound familiar to what Hideyoshi pulled off in his lifetime? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )

Go to Kyoto and see how many people claim they have Daimyio blood in their veins http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Since lineage was the only way to be able to claim high title (appointed by the imperial court), getting noble blood, even if its for just ONE generation, was enough to have a foundation to claim title. If memory serves me right, the Shoguns were related to the Emperor (a distant relationship to the imperial house), and most of the Clans of the era were related to either the current ruling Shogun's family or to another Shogunate's family.

"Hideyoshi who organised the class system"

He didnt organize it. He enforced it.

"I had always understood that it was one of the things Japan prided itself on from its earliest days as a single country"

And the Sengoku Jidai marked the begging of a single country. Even thouugh the previous shogunate had ruled most of japan, it did not rule all of it. As I understand it, the Taiko was the first man to have every part of it, including Kyushu under his direct authority.

". He was wrong about so many historical facts, both intentionally (for the sake of the plot) and unintentionally (probably he didn't know enough about Japanese history)"

I think it was for storytelling. Clavell never has been one to try to stick his books with historical stuff. He merely images it to give it a more realistic look. Just look at his translation of Sun Tzu's THE ART OF WAR. He filled it with a lot of chinese "anecdotes" he dug up from somewhere to fill up space and give examples of what Sun Tzu was saying.

"As a matter of fact, even though Hideyoshi can't lay the claim, his heir Hideyori can. Hideyoshi's principal young wife Lady Yodo (whose child name was "chacha"), is the mother of Hideyori. And Lady Yodo was the daughter of Azai Nagamasa and Lady O-ichi (O-chi was Nobunaga's sister, and her 3rd daughter O-go was the wife of the second Tokugawa shogun, Hidetada. "

YES! thats it. Chacha was the daughter of one of the castles Hideyoshi took when serving as Nobunaga's general. Oichi was Nobunaga's half-sister (Im telling you, all this extended family stuff is confusing! And they bred like rabbits!). Oichi was married to Asai Nagamasa in an alliance by marriage.. the Asai were a buffer between the Takeda and the Oda clans.. but when Nobunaga campaigned against the Asakura clan (which had ties to the Asai much more ancient than with the Oda), the Asai waited until Nobunaga was deep in their territory and turned against Nobunaga, cutting off his rear and sandwiching him between 2 hostile armies. Too bad for them, Nobunaga's and Ieyasu's troops were able to cut their way out of the trap and retreat. When Hideyoshi took the castle, he only managed to save the daughters, since Oichi decided to die with Asai Nagamasa, both commiting seppukku.

Since Hideyoshi was married, he later on took chacha as his lover, and when Nene died (some say chacha poisoned her.. *shrug*) she was able to become his wife.

Let me tell ya, these people had scandals and stuff that make Brit and French royalty pale in comparison http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Some very interesting facts there guys cheers. Especially about Hideyoshi's wives and so on didn't know about that. But was Hideyori from Chacha or from Nene? He was Hideyoshi's first son (otherwise he would not have been heir) (also not counting any previous dead children i dont know about) and so would surely have come from Hideyoshi's first wife since they go at it like rabbits?

Anyway the stockholder's analagy was really useful. So in return for fighting for the Daimyo he gave them land and the chance to put a roof over their families heads.

Cheers again lads.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Tac]

Nene didnt have any children that I know of. It is believed that the Taiko was infertile.. and that his "heir" was the son of someone else chacha shagged and then claimed his son to be Hideyoshi's heir (and quite likely the father of the kid was killed or silenced somehow).

That would be something neat to find out.. find the tomb of Hidoyoshi and that of his "heir" and do a DNA test http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Tac]

the stockholder analogy is crude. Its hard to explain.

In Europe the knights received land to live in and in return they had to give X amount of time of military service to their lord and fight for them during times of war. But the lord could not order a knight around like a soldier.. that is, he couldnt order him to train 24/7 to become a better soldier.

In Japan the Samurai received social priviledges (peasants and merchants bowed to them and respected them *out of fear mostly*, and they could "elevate" themselves above the rabble thanks to their status), pay, in many cases a house or grounds to build one (but the land still belonged to the Daimyio) and as I said above, the chance to go up the social ladder by either breeding or reputation. The Daimyio this way got himself what we would call today a proffessional army.. each fighting man completely at his command and able to be trained and to fight at a moments notice. The Ashigaru were peasants that were given the chance to try their luck at becoming a samurai... think of them as peasants with delusions of being merceneries... and most of them did not want to be there but were forced to fight for their provincial lords.

Remember, in those times the Emperor owned all the land, but the Daimyios owned what it produced and the people that lived on them.

And the peasants knew that all their farms, crops, families and animals were likely to be killed and burned if the province came under siege, as it was common strategy for an invading army to set fire to everything they could find in enemy lands to weaken the enemy and to show their own ferocity.

[Takeda Marko]

I see that this discussion has gone a long way. I'm new to this forum, so I'll just try to answer the first question, about the clans.
In my opinion the Takeda clan is the best, because it's the easiest to play.
You have cavalry units while your enemies don't have them, and you've got(later on) Takeda Shingen, probably the best general in the game.
Other clans which are pretty easy to play are the Hojo and the Uesugi.
The most intrigueing to play are the Oda and the Imagawa(Tokugawa in the WE version after 1560) clans.


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"Be swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as fire, steady as a mountain"
= Takeda Shingen's Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Thanx for the comment Takeda. It seems that the two favourite clans here are Takeda and Imagawa/Tokugawa so far.

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Takeda Marko]

Yes, I think you're right Toda-san. I think that it's because the Imagawa/Tokugawa's ninja image and because of Takeda's cavalry and the very popular Takeda Shingen.

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"Be swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as fire, steady as a mountain"
= Takeda Shingen's Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Am I right in thinking that in the original STW Imagawa Yoshimoto was the only level 6 Daimyo (also at the start he is only 16) where as all the others are level 5. Shingen,Kenshin,Hideyoshi,Ieyasu,Nobunaga.

Am I right or just imagining things. If this is true then supposedly Yoshimoto was the best daimyo of the period according to CA and their historical advisor. But anyway Yoshimoto in real life died when Hideyoshi and Nobunaga ambushed him while he was on his way to Kyoto to claim Shogun didnt he? So therefore probably wasnt the greatest daimyo of the time...

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

Takeda clan is the best!

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)

[Gothmog]

Toda Nebuchadnezzar:

Its' all in your mind.

In both original STW and WE, there are only four level 6 daimyos: Takeda Shingin, Uesugi Kenshin, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and

Date Masamune

How date get to be ranked this high really really escaped me.

Especially considering those other great men such as Oda Nabunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi only get to be listed as rank 5.

Date was an important daimyo in the end, all right, but he only deserved to be rank 4 or 3. All I remember about this guy are:
He got only one eye.
He got really bad temper.
He owned shinano when the west and east clashed.

Imagawa Yoshimoto was a really screwed up daimyo. Because in those "original" scenarios, he started off as some one less than 10 years old.


[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 02-21-2002).]

[DeathOnaPaleHorse]

The best clan? Definately the Dreaded Swiss-Japanese Clan.... you probably haven't heard of them... they mostly take care of the Koku and stay neutral during the campaign... but if called in to battle, they have their fierce Swiss Army Katana of Death and the much feared BMX bicycle unit of Destruction.

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Philosophy of Wing Chun

One who excels as a warrior does not appear formidable;
One who excels in fighting is never aroused in anger;
One who excels in defeating his enemy does not join issues;
One who excels in employing others humbles himself before them.
This is the virtue of non-contention and matching the sublimity of heaven.
[/list]

[Takeda Marko]

Imagawa Yoshimoto was only ranked 4th rank in the original STW, and I think he didn't really deserve a better ranking.
I didn't know that Date Masamune was rank 6 in the original STW ?! I know that he's rank 6 in the Warlord Edition. Weren't Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin the only ones with rank 6 in the original game?
About the Swiss army clan, they sound very interesting.They're probably smuggling Nestle's chocolates while they don't have anything to do.

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"Be swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as fire, steady as a mountain"
= Takeda Shingen's Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

A mind is a terrible thing to waste Goth...

But yeah it was only a hunch not a fact.

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[james]

obviously thier cav because most other clans fear em

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Sorry James which clan were you referring to/who were you replying to, I couldn't quite get it...

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[james]

i was referring to the topic starter.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Ah right I thought so just checking though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif