Log in

View Full Version : MTW, AOK, and STRONGHOLD



Icerian Rex
01-03-2004, 20:56
I've posted on this topic before, but have never really managed to get the conversation going, so I'll try once again and see what comes of it.

1. The benefits of MTW - The Risk Style, turn based settings. The magnificent battlefields. The troop variety...

2. ... benefits of AOK - Naval warfare, greater landscape variety (even though more cartoonish), and a larger number of buildings on the map. Also, you can build walls wherever you want, as well as wonders.

3. ... and with Stronghold - Single largest factor here is the ability to custom tailor your fortress, from the positioning of towers and walls, to manning them, to the flaming oil, etc... overall, there is just so much that goes into making a battle truly unique.

I would really enjoy seeing some of these ideas in place in future TW series'. For instance, the ability to arrive at a battle early and spread pitch in front of the path of the enemy, or create temporary earthworks with palisades of stakes (units can pass through them, but they take damage).

Same is true with the siege battles: I was really disappointed the first time I saw the boiling oil being dumped from the gatehouse, as it's not quite the same effect as the screams and burning bodies of stronghold.

Overall, MTW wins hands-down in terms of the vastness of the battle screens, but I've got some ideas for what could be done in the future that might really add some depth and realism to the game, I'd appreciate any comments or ideas others might have as well:

1. Rather than having gunpowder or the compass simply appear all at once, it would have to be discovered, either through trade or some contact with another culture, perhaps via investment in technology...

2. Population should play a factor: Continuously creating units from one or two provinces should have a negative effect on a population, where beyond a certain point it would be necessary to wait many years to create more and more units. It would also affect agricultural output (as the farmers would be off fighting, and not at home tilling).

3. Movement should have a cost: Shifting units all over kingdom come would, in my opinion, be expensive (just look at the troops in Iraq&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, and as such should carry a certain cost. The longer the voyage or march, the greater the expense. This cost could perhaps be less if a person was the defender, or if simply moving between provinces. The idea here would be to stop these Juggernauts of armies, where there is a vanguard of elite troops, with armies of peasants being built to arm the newly conquered territories.
NOTE: The former three could be perhaps toggled on or off.

4. At the end of a game (much as in AOE or AOK), there should be a recap of the empire's expansion, showing major battles via crossed swords or something, or simply showing the rise of that empire in comparison to other factions.

5. There should definitely be naval battles It's a whole new avenue of the game, as of yet not done. What good is it to spend four years building a silly cog or gunship, just so that it can sit off the coast to fight some future battle in autoresolve?

6. Battlefields should be allowed to be tweaked. For a certain cost, a defender should have the opportunity to build defenses, in the form of pitfalls, stakes, palisades, small earth walls, pitch fields, or something else.

7. Same with Castles... it would be really cool to be able to look at the piece of land the castle would occupy, and build that castle to the personal specifications you'd like (or the computer could do it).

8. I want to see a city grow on the map: Highly advanced provinces should have more than simply a dock and citadel to show for their efforts.

9. A variant that would substantially change game play would be: Rather than simply have a turn based game, or the AOK real time game, There would be continuous movement seen on the strategic map but with static moments at year end. Rather than simply having armies descend onto a particular province all at once, a person would have the ability to see the armies of the enemy on the move (via either spies or watchtowers), and could either move his own forces or not to counter a threat. Likewise, naval flotillas of forces headed toward your provinces could be detected by your own ships, and if the battle at sea was lost, forces from the enemy could land. The battles would in effect be frozen in time, but a person would have perhaps sixty seconds between the elapse of one year and the next, at which point the screen would freeze, news of that year would be announced (i.e., the pope excommunicates you, or a crusade is declared against you), as well as the ability to see what was built, etc...). Once all decision making was made, the strategy map would again become animated and play would resume. Also, a benefit of this would be that based on the time of year battles were fought, one could determine the battle conditions (such as snow in the winter).

10. Finally, my biggest wish would be for an add-on that would allow a person to create their own maps Perhaps five or ten pre-made maps would be there, but apart from that a person could a) Create their own borders, b)their own sea-spaces, c) Their own graphics (mountains, rivers, hills, forests, etc...), and d) Create a regions specific values (such as gold, iron, land value, peasants get a +1 valor bonus, etc..). In this way someone could create a MTW but with the land of Lord of the Rings for the backdrop, or Africa, or Persia, whatever A person would also be given the ability to pick from several hundred unit types, some historical, some fantasy, some modern, and then decide on their cost, attributes, special bonuses or weaknesses, and anything else that might be useful. In essence, the ultimate mod for dummies. One could recreate the French and Indian wars, World War I or II, the war for middle earth, or anything else they thought to be of interest. This, in a nutshell, would create the greatest departure from gaming as is currently known (buy the package, play the game as is), and would instead allow even those that had only a modicum of computer knowledge to create some fantastic games. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Ashen
01-03-2004, 21:01
8 abd 10 I want. But im pretty sure your number 9 on wishlist is being implemented in a way in Rome: Total War. Seasonal turns (4 a year) with continuous movement and higher/lower values depending on whats in your army and what its moving over

Icerian Rex
01-04-2004, 07:47
A few more ideas (and these are the last I can think of)
1. Move the rout button away from the rally button Sometimes my computer gets jumpy, and in the midst of a heated battle, I wind up hitting it and ruining a whole battle.

2. Have whole army commands: When the enemy is busy sauntering back and forth, it would be very useful to have a wheel left and wheel right command, as well as an advance command and a halt command. Sometimes, especially at close range, I want my troops to move forward (en masse) ever so slightly, but wind up with half of them turned at odd angles and I'm forced to straighten everybody out.

3. Regarding many of the ideas that have been put forth, there should be toggle switches. A person can turn on or off things such as advanced trade, population, or allowing new factions to return, etc...

4. Rather than having a list of every general in the field, it would be good to be able to whittle it down a little. There could be a bar with stars (from one to eight) and you could choose to see all generals down to such and such level (for instance, I'm not so concerned about seeing all the one star generals, but would like to see that hidden five star mixed in with a stack where there's an eight star general&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. The same should go for economic abilities, as judged with the feather quills, as I'm always searching for a good governor for high income provinces, only to have to settle for a four feather guy when there was some seven feather guy somewhere else.

5. The glorious achievements idea is great, but is pretty bare bones. It would be nice to see this more fleshed out... just that one of the things I hear over and over is that most people give up after a hundred years or so, and it would be good to be able to add something that captures the attention in the same way simcity does. I know it's a pretty vague statement, but just something to bring the player closer to the country they're managing. It's just too darn easy, once you get on a role gobbling up territories, to stop.... and if you don't do it, the AI will. Wars and battles should be a large part of the game, but not the only part...

Voigtkampf
01-04-2004, 08:17
Sound words…

Personally, I would myself enjoy positioning the castles at the exact strategic key positions, making them harder to approach and conquer (Minas Tirith, anyone?), custom tailoring the position of the towers and alike…

Ludens
01-04-2004, 12:04
Quote[/b] (Icerian Rex @ Jan. 04 2004,07:47)]1. Move the rout button away from the rally button Sometimes my computer gets jumpy, and in the midst of a heated battle, I wind up hitting it and ruining a whole battle.
YES No more accidental routs Although in your case, setting the detail / unitsize lower might help.


Quote[/b] ]2. Have whole army commands: When the enemy is busy sauntering back and forth, it would be very useful to have a wheel left and wheel right command, as well as an advance command and a halt command. Sometimes, especially at close range, I want my troops to move forward (en masse) ever so slightly, but wind up with half of them turned at odd angles and I'm forced to straighten everybody out.
Perhaps you mean the CTRL+A and ALT-commands? You can find the hidden commands in the Shogun Academy HB in the download section of the org (FAQs and Files > Shogun FAQs).


Quote[/b] ]4. Rather than having a list of every general in the field, it would be good to be able to whittle it down a little. There could be a bar with stars (from one to eight) and you could choose to see all generals down to such and such level (for instance, I'm not so concerned about seeing all the one star generals, but would like to see that hidden five star mixed in with a stack where there's an eight star general&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. The same should go for economic abilities, as judged with the feather quills, as I'm always searching for a good governor for high income provinces, only to have to settle for a four feather guy when there was some seven feather guy somewhere else.
What we need here is just are sort-options as in Windows. You just need to select the right category (acumen / command / dread) and the generals will be sorted in order of thei acumen / command / dread.

the_holy_knight
01-04-2004, 15:08
Well I like all the ideas good work and I have an idea about ships. With the idea of landing the more people in the ship the faster the cannons fire or the better the boarding or whatever and combining with the idea of having to pay for marching the ships should have to stop and pay for food at allied ports add a bit of realism I mean c'mon a ship can stay at a none coastal patch of sean for well over 100 years http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif.

I absolutely LOVE the idea of making your own units without having to be able to mod (I'm learning html at the moment or I would) And I love the idea of making units from Lord of the Rings and make your own campaign maps split into all the major cities and plains of middle earth. And make hobbit warriors
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Anyway those are just my thoughts
THK

Lord Rom
01-04-2004, 16:21
Yes the conrol-a selects all your troops, which if made into one group can wheel... with alt held and right click.

Alt- click moves whole army keeping same positions.

Chimpyang
01-04-2004, 16:59
I acutally would really like to see the size of a province's population shown up on the map..as in MTW how can a provinve keep on supplying all these men for your campaigns? It alo might even make you care even more about your peasents enoguh to stop custom brewing rebellions so tht you can train up generals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Ludens
01-04-2004, 17:32
Quote[/b] (Chimpyang @ Jan. 04 2004,16:59)]I acutally would really like to see the size of a province's population shown up on the map..as in MTW how can a provinve keep on supplying all these men for your campaigns? It alo might even make you care even more about your peasents enough to stop custom brewing rebellions so tht you can train up generals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Only a small part of the peasant population was ever recruited. I dont think that this ever influenced argicultural production, except in desperate cases in which every man was drafted (but never worked anyway). This is impossible in MTW, you can only recruit one unit per year.
What I would like to see is a militia which fights when the province is threathened, but does campaign outside of the province. The size of this militia should depend on population size and hapiness (not loyality, dread should not influence this) and the precence of a castle (a castle should come with its own garrison that, like the militia, never leaves the province, but, unlike the militia, only fights when the castle is directly threathened).

Icerian Rex
01-04-2004, 21:52
It's a good point about the militia forces. As you mentioned, the town guard isn't going to ship itself from Leon to Khazar just to be stationed there.... it defeats the point of having a town guard.

Going back to the idea of toggle switches, it would be great to be able to see (based on the toggle chosen) a) A map only with fighting and naval forces, b) A map with only religious units, c) A map with only spies and Assassins, and d) A map with only Royalty. Just as in AOK's though, one could layer what they wanted to see, thereby cluttering or uncluttering as they saw fit.

Also, going back to my idea of a more customized empire/environment, I would still like to be something done that would limit the idea of world conquest, and instead focus on working within the confines of an existing empire. Obviously, it would mean re-working large portions of the game, but could ultimately make it more enjoyable. I, for one, get tired as the game progresses. Any more than five battles in one year is too much I'd rather take my empire, province by province, and build it up: Start with changing villages to towns, towns to cities, etc... the ability to build roads for speed, seek out and extract minerals and build up these facilities, encourage growth through prosperity, etc... Many games, such as Civ and AOK, do this, and I think it would allow a person to not get bored as quick: Guard towers could be set up where desired, as could towns, fortresses, etc... an army couldn't simply walk into a province, fight a battle and take the province, but would instead have to seek out the enemy. Battles would take on a more custom tailored approach, and would be more interesting... just some more thoughts....

Keep it going folks.

Ludens
01-04-2004, 23:03
Quote[/b] (Icerian Rex @ Jan. 04 2004,21:52)]Guard towers could be set up where desired, as could towns, fortresses, etc... an army couldn't simply walk into a province, fight a battle and take the province, but would instead have to seek out the enemy. Battles would take on a more custom tailored approach, and would be more interesting... just some more thoughts....
Remember, RTW is going to be played be a lot of people with a lot of different tastes. If the building part gets expanded, that's good, but if it happens at the cost of the battles, that's bad. The battle part is what sets it apart from other games. Expanding the building-possibilities is a fine thing in itself, but the game should not try to compete with civilization.

Oh, and the concept of provinces is dropped in RTW. The map will now consist of linked battlemap, while production e.d. are taken care of by cities.

k1injuries
01-05-2004, 04:11
I don't know if its already been suggested but I'd like to see some logistics thrown into the mix to spice up the fun. Being able to attack enemy supply lines would be great especially in sieges. Sieges are too easy to win in my opinion and being cut off from supplies would make it more of a challenge.

It doesn't have to be an overly complex system, MTW is already complex enough. The supply line could just be a unit that you could use just like any other unit. You'd have to link up provinces with these units to create a supply line of food and equipment to the front lines. If the front line doesn't have an established supply line then they could have penalties set on them so that they'd be less effective in battle. Provinces that you own wouldn't need supply lines since you already have the necessary buildings to create weapons and such. To attack a supply line you'd only have to drop your battle units onto it. To defend against this the supply line could be assigned escort units.

Logistics don't have to be in the game but it'd be pretty cool if they were.

Ludens
01-05-2004, 12:29
k1injuries, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. The supply line should connect the army with what? And how could it be threathened if it was in the same stack as the army?

Sun Tzui
01-05-2004, 13:34
Here's a thought about logistics...if you have a certain level of armour/weapon available, you should be able to make that armour/weapon level available in any province. Having a sort of production warehouse with 100 units of level 3 armour, 500 units of level 2 armour, 300 units of level 1 weapons....for example.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Ludens
01-05-2004, 15:21
Quote[/b] (Sun Tzui @ Jan. 05 2004,13:34)]Here's a thought about logistics...if you have a certain level of armour/weapon available, you should be able to make that armour/weapon level available in any province. Having a sort of production warehouse with 100 units of level 3 armour, 500 units of level 2 armour, 300 units of level 1 weapons....for example.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
Problem: it would turn into a book-keepinggame.

k1injuries
01-06-2004, 01:05
That's why the logistics system should be kept simple. The supply line would, well, supply the armies with necessities like tools and food.
I suppose the supply line could be represented as another map piece like a spy or emissary. You could add military units to the supply piece as escorts and enemies could attack the supply piece directly just like you would with an assassin to a general or king.

Heaven forbid that I suggest how the developers should implement logistics because that's their job if, even, they want logistics in the game. Just having some sort of logistics system would make the game more interesting and absorbing, although it is absorbing enough.

Having supply lines would add more realism too, I think. I'm not a history buff or anything like that, but I do know a fair share of it. I'm pretty sure that there was more then once a case in which a battle was lost because of insufficient supplies in the past.

Gregoshi
01-06-2004, 07:50
Welcome to the Org k1. Interesting idea. The logistics you talk about could be wagons which would work much like ships do at sea for invasion purposes: you must have an unbroken chain back to some supply point. I'm not sure how realistic that for the time period though. The other thing is any system would have to be well thought out to insure it doesn't break the game or detract from the fun factor.

I could see spies have a couple of new mission types with a logistics system: attack supply lines and protect supply lines. The spies would organize raiders to attack supply lines or work to defend/break up such raiders groups.

Well, anyway, whether or not some of these ideas to come to fruition in a future TW game, it is still fun to go through the mental exercise. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Voigtkampf
01-06-2004, 08:12
Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Jan. 05 2004,08:21)]Problem: it would turn into a book-keepinggame.
There is always a problem that could happen, but I personally enjoy as much of micromanagement as I can get. I always end up wishing I could influence even more things than I can do within the certain game's limits. Convoy idea is not a bad one, but it requires a serious planning and assessment about its actual applicability and usefulness in the game, so it would not become an annoying experience instead of an interesting one.

Sun Tzui
01-06-2004, 11:05
Quote[/b] ]I personally enjoy as much of micromanagement as I can get. I always end up wishing I could influence even more things than I can do within the certain game's limits. I AGREE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

We strategy fans always end up waiting for that ultimate game that covers all angles we wish to see covered, and that simultaneously keeps it simple. Although TW still leaves something to be desired in micromanagement terms, the modding and development of new games, with the making of the most recent versions more mod friendly, along with the historically appeal of the game, are turning this game into one the biggest successes in game history. At this pace, with the release of RTW with a more envolving game ambiance, new 3D engine that requires less of your machine, new game features, and the most mod friendly title of all TW titles, I think we are walking in the direction of that much desired goal.....the ultimate strategy game, with good & simple (although vast) playing & micromanagement.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Sun Tzui
01-06-2004, 11:07
game...game...game...game...

I was a bit repetitive wasn't I? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Sorry about that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Ludens
01-06-2004, 12:56
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ Jan. 06 2004,08:12)]Convoy idea is not a bad one, but it requires a serious planning and assessment about its actual applicability and usefulness in the game, so it would not become an annoying experience instead of an interesting one.
That's my point. I am glad you see it too, Lord Voigtkampf. I want to add that in the context of medieval warfare, a supply line is not very accurate. Most medieval wars bogged down because of non-existent logistics. The soldiers just plundered the peasants, wherever they were (even when they were defending their homeland ). I don't know how this was in Roman times, but I suppose this depended on the nation.
Anyway, you should be able to raid supply lines, but the TW engine just thinks in terms of attacking and defending (I understand VI adds raiding, but I haven't got he slightest idea what this is).

Voigtkampf
01-06-2004, 22:55
Quote[/b] (Sun Tzui @ Jan. 06 2004,04:05)]
Quote[/b] ]I personally enjoy as much of micromanagement as I can get. I always end up wishing I could influence even more things than I can do within the certain game's limits. I AGREE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

We strategy fans always end up waiting for that ultimate game that covers all angles we wish to see covered, and that simultaneously keeps it simple. Although TW still leaves something to be desired in micromanagement terms, the modding and development of new games, with the making of the most recent versions more mod friendly, along with the historically appeal of the game, are turning this game into one the biggest successes in game history. At this pace, with the release of RTW with a more envolving game ambiance, new 3D engine that requires less of your machine, new game features, and the most mod friendly title of all TW titles, I think we are walking in the direction of that much desired goal.....the ultimate strategy game, with good & simple (although vast) playing & micromanagement.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Indeed. Simple and efficient micromanagement. Master of Orion 3 was a full of it (micromanagement), but it was awful, unbalanced, with the most horrid AI, both for your opponent as for your own side I've ever seen. The end result was indeed as if I was playing through the worse administration simulation you could imagine…

With R:TW, I say again, sky is the limit…



Quote[/b] ]That's my point. I am glad you see it too, Lord Voigtkampf.

We are just simply and undeniably ingenious fellas, that's all