Hopeless heirs

[fruitfly]

One thing I've noticed playing MTW is that my starting king and initial crop of heirs will generally have pretty good stats for things like command and acumen, but that after a few generations I'll start to get a bunch of useless inbred or drunken oafs who are hopeless at either commanding armies or managing the empire effectively.

I know that it's possible to increase influence by conquering land or helping out allies in battle, and that you can increase a kings influence and piety by having successful crusades and jihads. From what I've seen, high piety seems to be inherited, but I haven't noticed the same trend with command and acumen. If you've got a ruler with one acumen (or worse) there doesn't seem to be any way to increase it and building up the command stats of a poor king doesn't seem worth the trouble considering their lifespan is so short and you've generally got far more capable generals available anyway. Is there a way of managing your king and heirs to ensure that you'll have a line of decent rulers with good command and acumen stats? Those unused heirs tend to make pretty decent generals and governors in the long run, so it'd be nice to have a steady supply of them rather than having to rely on three or four who've been around since 1100, especially if those start to accumulate bad V&Vs.

[Phatose]

Actually, command is most definitely passed on. I suspect acumen is too. But it's not perfect. In general, better kings produce better heirs - up to a point, anyway.

In my experience, your best hope is to wait until the king has a good crop of heirs, then pick the one with the best stats. If he's not the crown prince, kill off his older brothers until he is. Hopefully, he'll have children better then he is.

But remember, it's not a direct line inheritance. A 6 star king is more likely to have 8 star sons then a 2 star king, but it's far from guaranteed. Also, beware that above 6 in command, things gets screwy - 7 command kings have a lot of 0 command heirs.

Other then that - try to get princesses ASAP, and make sure the best prince becomes king and produces heirs. Cull the herd if neccessary.

And well...if you don't have a decent king to start with, you'll need some luck to get anywhere.

[Basileus]

You said it mate, influense is the key keep conquering jihads crusades do all the stuff that help you get better influense and keep using him to get better command..you will not always get good heirs though but with good influense theres a better chanse..with some factions its tougher though not much you can do about it..if you get a sucky heir and have others better after him you could always assasinate him or send him on a suicide mission so that then next heir that might beb better gets the crown

[Basileus]

Phatose i have to dissagre with you about the 7 star kings, they are usualy the ones that give the best heirs but with 8 or 9 stars then you get heirs with 0 command..:)

[DemonArchangel]

dude, that 0 command=10 or more stars.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Jan. 04 2004,15:59)]dude, that 0 command=10 or more stars.
Yep, you're right there. See HERE. (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=13325)

Is this a mistake by CA, do we think? Or intentional?

[Ironside]

Well there's one way to increase the accuman of your king or heirs. It's assassin attempts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Simply use valour 0 assassins as one V&V way increases accuman, one increases dread, one does nothing for improving breeding stats and one decreases accuman.

Piety does also go from a number to zero, BUT i think that number is bigger than 10 (12 or something) for some reason. I ran a campaign where my only forces came from Jihads after 50 years, so I'm very sure about that.

By the way imagen this: your 9 influence king takes another province and ends up with zero influence. Nice civil war. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Accumen, dread, loyalty and influence seems to be locked.

[Ironside]

And for fruitfly.

My royal line almost always "crash" into very bad kings before I can get good ones, unless I play with a faction with very good starting kings. I haven't figured out why it happens yet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Degeneration of the heirs is a common problem, especially with some of the factions, and aside of manipulating the best heir to the throne (murder, suicide attacks) and conquering territories and performing successful crusades/jihads, there is not much else to be done. I always find myself nourishing those kings to eventually see them die when they finally get some reasonable stats… Oh, dear…

[Bezalel]

I've noticed (or at least told myself I have) that if your king, no matter what his command is, starts a succesfull war, the heirs will usually have more command than him. Sometimes though, I have a hard time aquiring heirs at all. The Byzantines tend to have really good heirs. I've had 9 acumen and command heirs regularly from them.

[fruitfly]

Thanks for all the replies.

I'm about to start a new game anyway, so I'll try out a selective breeding/assassination programme and see how I get on.

[Doug-Thompson]

Somebody was so desperate, he'd find a good general and start a civil war to make him king.

I've never tried that, so I can't recommend it. Seems awfully desperate to me.

If the empire's big, rich and loyal, who cares if the king's a slacker? One reason I like playing Muslims is that you can expand rapidly. It makes factors like having a good king less important, since you can pick and choose good governors.

[Divine Wind]

You know....bad heirs can have awful accidents sometimes, like accidently getting dropped on an enemy territory all alone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Phatose]

Just beware, heirs ignore some of the game's restrictions on retreat. Despite the fact that prince useless is incapable of running a government, an economy, a battle, or even of getting up in time for church, he and his brother prince taking-up-space are quite capable of swimming from Ireland back to Spain.

[Quokka]

I have noticed that if you get your heirs married off to foreign princesses they then have better heirs than if your king marries a local aristocrats daughter.

[Servius]

I've found that if you want better heirs you have to have your king commanding armies in battle. If the king's command rank goes up, his heirs are likely to have better command stats too.

I've had situations where I've had a 0 command king (and a real 0, not a broken 10) who had become king through a steadily worsening (in terms of command rank) family line. I started sending him with kickass armies to take over petty rebel territories like Ireland and such. If he wins battles his command rank will go up. The higher his goes, the higher the bell curve moves up for his heirs.

Also, the more you actively engage your king in combat, the healthier he becomes (so long as he lives through the battles), and the better the fighter he becomes, and those traits also seem to be carried over to his heirs.

So basically, if you want heirs with good stats, make sure their dad has them. If he doesn't, put him in situations where he will earn them.

[Yoko Kono]

Quote[/b] (Quokka @ Jan. 06 2004,17:18)]I have noticed that if you get your heirs married off to foreign princesses they then have better heirs than if your king marries a local aristocrats daughter.
im a firm believer of this too
when my kings and heirs marry into local aristocratic circles they all end up inbred useless twats
the spanish, almohads and byzantines start with a decent crop but if you play a defensive game then eventually the good ones slowly die off making way for mediocrity
constant warfare to get good influence and other rulers willing to send you their daughters as a result seems to be the only garanteed way to keep a strong lineage

on a side note i remember sending an inbred heir to certain death to kill him off - he single handedly defeated several hundred men several times, after gaining a load of good fighting virtues after about 5 or 6 stunning victories i thot mebbe he aint such a bad guy to have around after all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Basileus]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

You should have made him king http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Demequis]

I also think that acquiring a foreign bride for your crown prince is a must.
That's really cool about the uber-prince battling off hordes.

I must say that I think it's really lame that the 0 star heirs are actually 0 star.... Like their bodyguards have 5 valour, indicating a 10 star general...but when grouped with other units none of them receive the bonus. Sounds like a crock to me.

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Demequis @ Jan. 06 2004,22:37)]I also think that acquiring a foreign bride for your crown prince is a must.
That's really cool about the uber-prince battling off hordes.

I must say that I think it's really lame that the 0 star heirs are actually 0 star.... Like their bodyguards have 5 valour, indicating a 10 star general...but when grouped with other units none of them receive the bonus. Sounds like a crock to me.
The heirs gets some extra valor bonus sometimes, I've gotten heirs with no V&V valor-bonuses and still they got 8 in valor http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif . Yes, some come from their command bonus but not all.

[Rising_General]

Just to verify that my thinking is correct, If you gain a vice, virtue, or command star, that only effects your Princes yet to come of age? or does is affect all of them. I have been playing as the french once again and once again my line has degenerated into to almost nothing. My men fighting bravely and at times untill the end only because of two, eight star generals.

JS,

[Lacker]

How do you know which prince is the "crowned prince"?

I've wondered this forever.

Thanks

A

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Lacker @ Feb. 18 2004,18:00)]How do you know which prince is the "crowned prince"?
It is the one at the top of the 'heirs' list. I believe the heir is also indicated in red.


Quote[/b] ]I have noticed that if you get your heirs married off to foreign princesses they then have better heirs than if your king marries a local aristocrats daughter.
I thought this too, but when I recently visited the archive, I found a post by Kraxis quoting a developer who stated that this was NOT the case. So I am now thoroughly confused as to whether this is true.

[Mysterium]

Quote[/b] (Rising_General @ Feb. 18 2004,08:50)]Just to verify that my thinking is correct, If you gain a vice, virtue, or command star, that only effects your Princes yet to come of age? or does is affect all of them. I have been playing as the french once again and once again my line has degenerated into to almost nothing. My men fighting bravely and at times untill the end only because of two, eight star generals.

JS,
I think that's true. I doubt an increase in your King's command would have any effect, good or bad, on a 20-yr-old prince.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Rising_General @ Feb. 18 2004,17:50)]Just to verify that my thinking is correct, If you gain a vice, virtue, or command star, that only effects your Princes yet to come of age?
It is true. It even applies if the prince is NOT the son of the current king (for example the son of older brother of the current king).
Princes who are already matured are not affected.

[kawligia]

Its good that the Byzantine's have good heirs naturally because they cannot use crusades or jihads to help them out.

But unfortunately my first heir is always mediocre, and my later ones are great. So I have to decide whether or not to sacrafice two or three good generals to have a better king. Tough call. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

p.s. I guess for an orthodox faction, command and acumen are the only important ones though.

[discovery1]

kawligia, I would suggest that you just go with the mediocre king. I always hate having a high lvl general as my king, after all he will die in a couple of decades. Better to have good generals that may be undying, it depends on you settings.

[kawligia]

Yeah but the better the king, the better the heirs/generals he will create.

[Kraxis]

Ludens, you can believe it. We had a discussion about it, but then a developer enter the frey and said it wasn't the case, but asked if we wanted it like that, for he could add it to the expansion or patch (can't remember which). We quickly desided that it wouldn't be that great, as it was presented as a penalty if you didn't get a princess. Now I'm not so sure it was a good idea, it could have been he meant it in a positive manner (getting more and better V&Vs as well as stats instead of a penalty).

[Ludens]

Thank you very much Kraxis.
It was not that I disbelieved what you wrote in that thread (Hmm... odds about heirs (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=20;t=5903)) but I couldn't figure out what you actually meant to say. Also, your post left the possibility open that 'degeneration' had been added with a patch or with VI. Thank you for clearing this up.

This means that Froggy's guide is incorrect when it states that foreign marriages reduce the chance on inbred vices.