Rivers and River Battles

[komninos]

Hi all,

Since the first release of HTW I had a constant problem with rivers This was also a main argument. My problems focus on three main points
1. In my opinion river battles are very problematic in MTW. Usually the AI fails to realize the existence of a second bridge.
2. The way maps have to be built you can’t realize a winding rivers, down stream rivers, cataracts, streams, swamps ... etc.
3. Finally most river battles took place not on bridges but near river shallows In big rivers like the Rhine or Danube there would be a river crossing meaning a landing battle.

I think I have found a solution to this but something else has to be answered first
Can we build new tile sets for the Battle Maps? And if yes ... all type i.e. forest and cliff types too or just simple tiles?

The solution goes a tile set is built to represent rives. It would be similar to forests in all respects except that it will be mostly blue/green. The other difference is that will have two central parts one for deep river that will be like the cliffs (meaning that units can’t cross) and one shallow that can be crossed but it will be like forests. To do this we will have to make a new tree that will represent the weed of the river and it will case a similar effect to trees but its height will not provide cover to the units. All edge tiles will be of gravel and river shallows part.

What do you think?
Can it be done?

[Eastside Character]

Even if it can be done, those tile-made rivers wouldn't rather look natural. But the idea is really interesting.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif
.EC.

[Antalis::]

I guess it would be possible, but it would effect all maps made with the changéd rock textures.
Thats the problem.
Also you couldn´t define exactly were you could pass, like you cannot exactly define were a mountain is passable.
And yes, it would not look real.

[Antalis::]

I have tried my method and unfortunatly it doesn´t working.


Also if you make a river that is not continuing from east to west: Some parts near the river will be unpassbale.


The only thing you could make would be to make a new texture for rivers, but then you could pass everywere and there would be no animation, also it would look indeed not realistic and artificial.

[komninos]

Guys, I don't expect eye candy here just a realistic river battle To the AI will appear as an area of rock and trees.

I am positive that it will work nicely but there are some technical problems to it.

1. Can we do this with out deleting the existing Trees and rock textures?
2. Can we "define" a new tree that is very short so it does not provide cover?

I will built a map out of existing textures and see how the AI reacts

Cheers

[Antalis::]

Like I said it doesn´t working, I tried it.
I guess, that something is unpassable, is hardcoded.
You need to build a hill or moutain, so that you get a unpassable area.
Maybe it works if you bild a hole, but you cannot control where this unpassable area is exactly.

[Wellington]

Hi Guys,

A very interesting discussion. Let me add my two-pence.


The MTW application of rivers/bridges is indeed a bit limited. This makes the creation of fordable areas a bit problematical. The main problems are -

a) the height of the battlefield (the map)
b) the application/limitations of bridge models
c) the tidal nature of rivers (depending on whether the map is coastal or not)
d) the general impassability of any MTW river/water/sea/lake that is generated via the tile "000.tga"


This makes it extremely difficult to utilise the MTW water features in order to create the features this thread is discussing.

However, lets forget the MTW water processing (in terms of how the engine generates and treats such water areas in a map/battlefield).

It appears to me the 2 major considerations are -

1) The MTW engine generally associates passable or impassable areas on a map in terms of height. Below sea level is always impassable, above mountain level is also impassable.

2) For the areas of a map that lie between sea and mountain level most areas are passable. The areas of impassability are generally determined by trees or models located within the map and NOT by height.

Considering the MTW tilesets there are 8 tiles that are not used in MTW and these tiles could be used (by a gifted individual who can draw such things) to draw a 'set' of stream/brook/small-river tiles. Such tiles could then represent a water area that is independent of the MTW height considerations. Ok, such a water area represented via such tiles would not have the 'flowing' characteristic of MTW rivers, but the appearence of such "water tiles" could be enhanced by placing models over some areas of these tiles on a map.

Considering the MTW models it's quite easy to change the characteristics of any model via the "ModelDamage.txt" file. Models may be made passable or impassable, destructable or indestructable and so on. You can also see that an impassable model causes troops to march around the model and the area of "impassability" is determined by the size of the model.

For example, a house generates a roughly "square shaped" area of impassability. A tower model does similar. A castle wall model generates a "long thin rectangle" area of impassability.

Therefore, if a small number of tiles were created to represent new water tiles, then by placing models of different sizes over such tiles on a map you could do 2 things -

3) enhance the effect of the water tiles (with models representing rocks, weeds, bullrushes etc)
4) create areas of impassability by placing models THAT ARE INVISABLE ON THE MAP over some areas of the water tiles

From 3), the game STW (Shogun) has such rock models that work fine in MTW (when renamed). Also there are various shrub models that can be used (or amended to create new models) to enhance the visual appearence of such water tiles.

From 4), you first have to realise that any model is comprised of 1 or more texture plates. Such texture plates may contain areas that are transparent via the background colour of such texture plates. For example, look at the sails of windmills, the tops of castle walls, the crosses on some churches. If you wish to extend the background transparency for such models to ALL of the texture plates that make up such a model - then you effectively have an INVISABLE MODEL on the map. Such an invisable model would serve to make any area impassable, regardless of the height Depending on the shape of the model you could also have different sized areas of impassability that could be placed over any tile - espcially newly created tiles that represent water.

Hence, if you can copy an existing MTW (or STW) model to a different name you then have the capability to create -

- impassable areas of different sizes/shapes, based on copied models that contain wholely transparent (invisable) textures that whilst not visable on a map would serve to create impassable areas - regardless of height.
- either passable or impassable areas of different sizes/shapes, based on copied models, that would serve to enhance the visual appearence of such water tiles (rocks, weeds, shrubs, bullrushes and so on).

Can we create new models, based on existing MTW or STW model shapes and sizes, to do such a thing? Yes We don't change existing models as such, just copy them (and the textures) and change the names of the models and the textures that comprise such models.

Hence, you can have water tiles that could be used to simulate a stream flowing down a hillside. Some areas may be passable, some not. Some areas of these water tiles could be enhanced via rock/rushes model, other areas not. Ok, it may not be a perfect solution - but it would work. Also, if a gifted individual could create the necessary water tiles (presumably using the same water colours as the "000.tga" tiles) then such a new tile feature should'nt look too out of place.

The main point is that the limitation, as per the MTW engine, in terms of areas of passability and height is eliminated. Such water tiles are just more tiles and have no relationship to height. Such models placed on such newly created tiles are also just models, and also have no relationship to height (but do have the flexability inherent in defining such models within the "ModelDamage.txt" file).

The one problem I've had doing this in terms of invisable models (and I've done it - it works) is that by creating a model with invisable textures, merely to make an area impassable, makes it impossible to determine via the MTW map editor whether or not such a model has been placed correctly This is somethng I'm currently attempting to address and incorporate into MTTM. The solution is to create new models that are only partially invisable (just for creating maps using such models) and then afterwards running a program that makes tha textures comprising such models totally invisable.


Food for thought?


Welly

[komninos]

Welly,

You have a way with the Tech stuff of MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

But can we make a tile that has the same ability of the Forest (tree) tile. The river/stream tile should be able to randomly place small "invisible" objects or Rocks around in a similar pattern with the forest tile to make the passage dificalt.

Though this is far fetched, is there a way to make a tile that would degrade the speed of a unit passing though it?

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 05 2004,04:27)]2) For the areas of a map that lie between sea and mountain level most areas are passable. The areas of impassability are generally determined by trees or models located within the map and NOT by height.
hi welly: Try to use 2 textures 172 (arid) side by side and build a hight: You get an unpassable area.

Try to do the same with the two textures (that are 2 mountaintextures, ice) with not building a mountain: It would happen nothing.
So I think it has something to do with height.

[komninos]

On the assumptions made above and using existing textures and models I made a small river map.

the stream flows from the hilly area down and splits in two while it makes two ponds (un-passable) and to the right a deep river area.

The upper pond and the deep river area is made by Wellys idea. A small fence is placed generating a passable square area. The deep pond to the left is a cliff texture put on a depression.

To simulate a shalows tile I used the forest tiles.

The units look strange ... they are from Bronze Age HTW.
From the left Archers, Auxilia, Mirmidons, Promaxy with pikes and 8-shaped shields.

The initial set-up.

http://www.original21paris.com/timos/images/river-test-1.jpg

During the fight.
As you see a small unit turned and passed form the small passable area at my flank while the bulk of his forces made a slide to the right.

http://www.original21paris.com/timos/images/river-test-2.jpg

My point it looks prosible and promissing