The Last Samurai

[Hirosito]

Hi guys sorry if this upcoming film has already been talked about. but is there a conensus on how reality based it is and how much "hollywood history" there is in it.

[Ludens]

It is about a samurai rebellion agianst the emperor. The samurai wanted Japan to stay the same, the wanted to get rid of the foreign influences.
However, in the movie they take up a foreigner. That does not sound very historically corect if you ask me. But I know next to nothing about this uprising.

[Mega Dux Bob]

It was neat how the movie romanticized the guy who led to Japanies militarism. Given a chance Hollywood could do the same for the Nazis,...

[Voigtkampf]

I know that I saw some shots of the samurai armor/weapons and that they look very authentic, as if they were replicated by someone who knew his trade well.

[Longshanks]

The romanticization of the Samurai is in itself a twisting of historical facts. The Samurai often behaved like savages, just the like the European knights who in prior years were romanticized by Hollywood. After the demise of the Samurai the code of Bushido, particularly it's unflinching devotion to loyalty, justified a multitude of war crimes commited by the Japanese during WW2. It's a good thing that both the Samurai and Bushido ended up on history's rubbish heap.

[solypsist]

Dances with Wolves set in Japan.

[Papewaio]

Or as some wits call it

Dances with Sushi

[el_slapper]

It comes out the 14th in France. Worth it?

[Ashen]

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ Jan. 06 2004,03:07)]Or as some wits call it

Dances with Sushi
rofl http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Or if set in england - Dances before a mid afternoon repast with some tea?

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Longshanks @ Jan. 05 2004,01:57)]The romanticization of the Samurai is in itself a twisting of historical facts. The Samurai often behaved like savages, just the like the European knights who in prior years were romanticized by Hollywood. After the demise of the Samurai the code of Bushido, particularly it's unflinching devotion to loyalty, justified a multitude of war crimes commited by the Japanese during WW2. It's a good thing that both the Samurai and Bushido ended up on history's rubbish heap.
Judging another culture through the prism of own culture, unavoidable consequence of life according to deterministic philosophers, rough and very false simplification in the eyes of others, less sophisticated… Or new age political correctness exercised beyond good taste?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Judging another culture through the prism of own culture, unavoidable consequence of life according to deterministic philosophers, rough and very false simplification in the eyes of others, less sophisticated… Or new age political correctness exercised beyond good taste?
All of the above are true: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

1.Unavoidable consequence of life?
Although also an escuse, yes. Because outsiders are raised in a different culture, with different values, their view will always be distorted.
Although some outsiders might be able to achieve a very close aproximation. But that depends on personal integrety and sense of perfectionism.

2.Rough and very false simplification?
In the Big Business BlockBuster-style Hollywood attitude, that is always the way.
Roughly is the way they think. Falseness is just their way to achieve their money making goals. Simplification is, for them, necessary to reach the brainless (so they say) minds of the public.
In fact, it's their minds that think this way: roughly, falselly, simply. Adding to all that, the greedness... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif



Quote[/b] ]Or new age political correctness exercised beyond good taste?
From that, there is no doubt... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Once more unto the breach, respected Lord Aymar...

[Major Robert Dump]

It was worth a matinee. Not the worst choice for a sunday evening cosidering all the garbage out there.

Dances with Wolves, Soly? Didn't you jump someone's case for calling it that a couple of weeks ago before they saw it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Some of the fighting was outstanding, but it had the typical big-battle with the main characters leading their armies in the charge and dramatically living to be the final men standing in their corps and magically avoiding all bullets while their comrades fall like dogs around them....its called "protagonists bullet/arrowproof vest"...they have it in LOTR as well lol

Also, TC's character was not a civil war hero, he was a cavalry man indian fighter, or, as the movie makes it out -- indian slaughterer who had a guilty conscious.

Of course, I guess I could have gone to see Spy Kids 18

[Basileus]

Well ive heard alot of good and bad things about it..being historical is not one thing ive heard though heh..im still looking forward to seeing it though and try to imagine that its no kurosawa flick when doing it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Brutal DLX]

The lord willing, I will watch this flick tonight and write about my impressions tomorrow.

Edit:

So, I watched it last night and I'll try to make it short, but with spoilers ahead, although the story really has not much twists so it doesn't hurt you to know.

It is fiction, the story is rather simple, desillusioned US cav captain gets sent to Japan to train newly raised conscript regiments to use firearms and fight against Samurai, which are explained to him as savages fighting with bows like the "Indians". During a premature attack when the regiments isn't ready, he is unpleasantly surprised of the fighting power of the Samurai and gets injured and captured in the process. He then is healed and learns the way of the Samurai and why they fight against the new troops in the first place. He decides to join them in their fight and they go down in a blaze of glory with him being the only survivor.
The story has its lengths, especially towards the middle of the movie, I felt the whole movie was a bit too long (~150 mins). The unavoidable love story felt misplaced but fortunately wasn't developed very much over the course of the film, the musical score was ok, although a bit more Asian influence would have been welcome. The way of living of the Samuria is romaticised and idealised so it stands in slight contrast to actual history. The cinematography is most excellent, beautiful shots of the scenery, equipment of the Samurai seems to be of good quality and the action scenes are done well, however there are just two minor skirmishes and the big final battle which wasn't very realistic, but well photographed.
Overall, if you liked Dances with Wolves, you'll like this one, if you like historical accuracy, this one is not for you, it's a purely fictuous story loosely linked to the historical opening of Japan to the West.

[Major Robert Dump]

AND IT HAD NINJAS

[Ser Clegane]

Nice movie to watch if you do not take it too serious. The battles scenes were fine and the costumes (without being an expert for details) looked great.

As mentioned before, although the story is generally based on the events of the Meiji Restoration (it seems that there has indeed been a guy named "Omura" whose task was to modernize the Japanese army, but he had been assassinated a couple of years before the movie takes place), the historical facts are indeed interpreted very freely (no guns in traditional samurai armies - sure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ).

The character of the rebel leader Katsumoto seems to be loosely based on the historical figure of Saigo Takamori who led the rebellion of the samurai (however, IIRC the army was considerably larger than in the movie).

[Stefan the Berserker]

Well, the Movie has made lots of "Hollywood"-History.

Japan signed a Pact with Prussia that a new Japanese Army should be trained by Prussian Officers, so Algren would never get the Position in the Movie.

There were several Rebellions against Meji, all started to end Japans foreign-friendly Policies and to end the Industrialisation. About 10.000 Samurais fought in a last large Battle and were defeated by the new trained "Hohei".

Some of the Prussian Officers who trained the Hohei, intended that the Samurai could still form a good Cavallary (Exactly, they intended to use what Shogun calls "Heavy Cavallary" as Husars.) Meji rejected: He wanted to remove the Samurai as they were rivals in Power, Meji wanted an unliteral Rule of himself and the Parilament.

The Bushido isn't the reason for Warcrimes in WW2, throughout someone should read Miyamoto Musashi's "Gomen no-Sho" and the Art of War by Sun Tzu. The favor of useing Violence as a political tool and the Imperialistic Ideology were the reasons for Warcrimes. In Case the Bushido is blamed for Warcrimes, you could also blame the Christianity for the Crusades, the Islam for 9.11 and Karl Marx for the cold War...

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (Major Robert Dump @ Jan. 07 2004,19:19)]Dances with Wolves, Soly? Didn't you jump someone's case for calling it that a couple of weeks ago before they saw it? :mecry:
18
yeah, but I jumped his case because he hadn't seen it yet felt obliged to inform us of his opinion on the matter. I, on the other hand, did see the movie, and now agree with that comparison. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif

(btw, I really miss that smoking smilie)

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] ]Of course, I guess I could have gone to see Spy Kids 18

18? I thought it was "Spy Kids - she just turned 18", and I also thought this wasn't the kind of movie you find in the same theaters showing mainstream movies...heh

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The Bushido isn't the reason for Warcrimes in WW2, throughout someone should read Miyamoto Musashi's "Gomen no-Sho" and the Art of War by Sun Tzu. The favor of useing Violence as a political tool and the Imperialistic Ideology were the reasons for Warcrimes. In Case the Bushido is blamed for Warcrimes, you could also blame the Christianity for the Crusades, the Islam for 9.11 and Karl Marx for the cold War...
I totally agree. People tend to mix things up, or make the wrong conclusions.

Even I... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

[Lazul]

hmmm... so historicly the officers helping Japan was prussian?...

What the f... im starting to hate "holywood". First they change the American ship in "Master and Commander" in to a french ship. (Do you yanks hate the french or something?).
And NOW they change the Prussian "hero" in to an American.

But I guess thats what hollywood does, the rape history and change the storylines in books to make americans not look so bad.

bha http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

[el_slapper]

The worse was Sinbad Sicilian. Damn, English fighting the french is the history of the 2nd millenium(not counting the 20th century), as we lastly fought in 1898 at Fachoda. So I can understand. The rest..... well, just say to the americans that everything well done on earth was from them, & everything bad from others.....

[Ja'chyra]

I think they call it artistic license http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif we would call it drivel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif

Just think of the submarine film that captured the enigma coding machine (U-571?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif It was the Brits who captured the first machine, at least there was small print at the end of the film even though it went so fast you couldn't read it.

I think they would have made William Wallace American if they could've got away with it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Well, In the "last Samurai" the americans don't look very well either. In serveral Scenes the Character "Algren" intends he hates General Custer and americas behaviour against the Indians, making him a Warcriminal in modern Sight.

As in the Movie "Seven Years in Tibet", were Brad Pitt plays an Austrian, Tom Cruise could have played an Prussian either. Maybe that was more senseful, thropughout the historic Context and the simple fact that the Prussians and the Japanese have very similar Philosophys.

Anyway it is obviously that americans didn't train Japans new Army: In 1879, were the Movie takes place, America didn't play any important role in foreign affairs and was only seen very low at Militarypower. The Prussians in this Term had just defeated Denmark, Austria-Hungary and France in the Unionwars of Bismarck and were seen as the strongest Militarypower in Europe (and in this Time this ment to be the strongest in the whole world).

[Knight_Yellow]

without talking about any of the political uprisings and stuff the others im talking about heres my (and my dads) honest opinion.


Forgett history, just go watch it.

Very realistic fight scenes and plenty of action spaced throughout to keep you from getting bored.

*loved the bit where the 4 guys try to kill Cruise and he replays the whole fight over in his head, like hes found his Zone and is totaly at peace*

[Zen Blade]

Let the old man speak...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

I liked the movie. The fight scenes were fairly good. The plot was cliched, but it was still very lovely. And Cruz could speak some decent Japanese.

I think the best part of the movie was the japanese cast. Very good in looking scary and all that stuff.

As for the historics... you have to tie it "roughly" to the samurai rebellion in western Kyushu (as I recall). As for the Americans, they never finished their trade treaty... so I would view it more of "in the middle of negotiations".

However, this, like most stories, is merely a tale whose purpose is to convey a message or a meaning. This movie's message is about culture, society, peace, change, and over-coming one's personal demons.

The worse part...

The way the director did not fully explain Hara Kiri (seppuku) to the audience. I am sure some people were like... "what's that????".

Anyways, back to the old folks home

-Zen Blade

[Major Robert Dump]

yes the cast and costumes were very cool.

I agree with KY, the coolest part was the battle where he was without sword and thought he had his pistol, but it turns out he was unarmed, and had to fight 4 assasins...very cool, I liked that scene a lot....

too bad the irishman had to die :P

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't understand the statement about Custer and war criminal....chock it up to misunderstanding, but Custer was a criminal, and a hoodlum, and a sorry cavalryman and I think this movie lightly reinforced that

Again folks, it's hollywood. It's fiction. Truth is stranger than fiction indeed, but truth doesn't always make the better 2 hour narrative motion picture. I swear, you bitches would complain if they made a movie based on the mongel invasion *if* the mongel navy had reached mainland Japan, even though it would be entirely fiction, but the movie would likely be cool as F*ck.

And people would whine "historically inaccurate waaaaaaaaaaaaah"

[makkyo]

The fighting in of itself is worth watching the movie. The authentic armor and weapons add to the great effects. I liked the part when the Imperial army used their gatling guns. A new age of warfare has come at last And the traditional samurai were absolete as any sort of military fighting force.
Even during the Japanese civil wars 200 years earlier, the samurai were introduced to early muskets. They simply covered the peasents with guns while they reloaded.
Even though the movie has a romanticised version of what the samurai where,it was great and worth watching none the less.

[Papewaio]

The costume designer for LOTR helped make the Last Samurai's costumes... makes sense since it was shot in NZ.

Characters where great.

I have seen the main supporting female in a TV series... a very funny Japanese one.

[Ja'chyra]

Just seen it, great film http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

It might not have been historically accurate but what stories are? Best film I've seen in a long time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ShadeFlanders]

Well I liked it a lot, only down side to me was the rediculously "forced" happy end. I hate "forced" happy ends, Pirates of the Caribean also had this crap.

[Basileus]

Quote[/b] (ShadeFlanders @ Jan. 18 2004,03:44)]Well I liked it a lot, only down side to me was the rediculously "forced" happy end. I hate "forced" happy ends, Pirates of the Caribean also had this crap.
Its a flick from Hollywood what did you expect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Basileus @ Jan. 18 2004,11:31)]
Quote[/b] (ShadeFlanders @ Jan. 18 2004,03:44)]Well I liked it a lot, only down side to me was the rediculously "forced" happy end. I hate "forced" happy ends, Pirates of the Caribean also had this crap.
Its a flick from Hollywood what did you expect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Remember that while the rest of the world doesn't mind an unhappy ending they don't go down well in America, and thats the market they really care about

[el_slapper]

Commentaire[/b] (The_Emperor @ Jan. 18 2004,13:43)]
Commentaire[/b] (Basileus @ Jan. 18 2004,11:31)]
Commentaire[/b] (ShadeFlanders @ Jan. 18 2004,03:44)]Well I liked it a lot, only down side to me was the rediculously "forced" happy end. I hate "forced" happy ends, Pirates of the Caribean also had this crap.
Its a flick from Hollywood what did you expect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Remember that while the rest of the world doesn't mind an unhappy ending they don't go down well in America, and thats the market they really care about
Now that you speak of that, tell me, crouching tiger & hidden dragon didn't have a happy end at all. Did it make well in the states?

[Brutal DLX]

Actually the Happy End in Last Samurai was presented as a possible solution... the narrator said something along the lines of "...however, I like to believe Algren returned to that village, finding his peace blah blah". From that perspective, I had no problem with the portrayed ending as it left room for imagination.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Jan. 19 2004,09:55)]Actually the Happy End in Last Samurai was presented as a possible solution... the narrator said something along the lines of "...however, I like to believe Algren returned to that village, finding his peace blah blah". From that perspective, I had no problem with the portrayed ending as it left room for imagination.
Yeah but in reality he should have committed Seppuko right there on the battlefield as well... Living through defeat to be shamed like that, is hardly the way of the Samurai.

I expected every one of them to wind up dead when he mentioned the battle where the Spartans were "fighting to the last man", sadly again we see the "Hero Aura" where everyone else dies around them and the hero remains untouched... That spoiled it for me really.


Quote[/b] ]Now that you speak of that, tell me, crouching tiger & hidden dragon didn't have a happy end at all. Did it make well in the states?

It did but it was unintended, since the film was made abroad and not in English, it was not expected to be such a huge film...

The success of Crouching Tiger was quite unexpected.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Remember that while the rest of the world doesn't mind an unhappy ending they don't go down well in America, and thats the market they really care about
I really don't believe that to be true. Or I hope it isn't.

IMHO, the responsability for the mindless happy-end mushy films is the responsability of the "establishment", not of the public. Kind of a "politically correct brain-wash". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

The producers should have balls and care less about political correctness. But, then again in such a conservative society as the USA, one cannot be really surprised. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif




Quote[/b] ]The success of Crouching Tiger was quite unexpected.
But, it really shouldn't be. After all it is a sparkling and rich fantasy. The unhappy end just enhances the effect... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 19 2004,16:52)]The producers should have balls and care less about political correctness. But, then again in such a conservative society as the USA, one cannot be really surprised. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif
But that is not the point. The point is making money. That is what American society (and European society too) turns all about.
Most people go to the pictures just to relax. They don't want to be faced with anything difficult. The heroes must save the world. Else, the public wouldn't be entertained, they wouldn't be relaxed. If I'm tired I don't feel like a "difficult" film or book either.
It has little to do with politcal correctness or having courage, it is just about giving what the public wants, about making money. And the public doesn't want to have to think about what they saw. They just want entertainment.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]But that is not the point. The point is making money. That is what American society (and European society too) turns all about.
Most people go to the pictures just to relax. They don't want to be faced with anything difficult. The heroes must save the world. Else, the public wouldn't be entertained, they wouldn't be relaxed. If I'm tired I don't feel like a "difficult" film or book either.
It has little to do with politcal correctness or having courage, it is just about giving what the public wants, about making money. And the public doesn't want to have to think about what they saw. They just want entertainment.

Yes, I know. Most of the people act the way you mentioned.

But, although minorities don't seel tickets, not all of the public wants just entertainment. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 19 2004,19:53)]Yes, I know. Most of the people act the way you mentioned.
But, although minorities don't seel tickets, not all of the public wants just entertainment. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif
True, but as long as it is a minority, only a minority of the films produced will be made with them in mind. Anyway, even if you do like that kind of film, does that mean you will not go to, for example, Lord of the Rings?

[Papewaio]

LOTR has a relatively hollywood ending compared with the book in which the shire is scoured...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]True, but as long as it is a minority, only a minority of the films produced will be made with them in mind. Anyway, even if you do like that kind of film, does that mean you will not go to, for example, Lord of the Rings?
Sometimes I go, sometimes I don't. It depends if the pros outnumber the cons... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

[Shahed]

I loved it.

[Crimson Castle]

I studied Japanese history and all I want to say is that they overglamorized the "Samurai" warriors. Many of them were very vicious and killed their enemies - including prisoners of war - without mercy. They also had the right to kill any peasant if they felt like it.

Then again this is Hollywood for you - they did it for the Mafia in "Godfather" etc, the cowboy in countless Western flicks, the North American Indian in Dances with Wolves, etc..

I say - go and watch the movie on an afternoon - I think for the great battle scenes - its worth watching on the big screen.

(I should add that the Japanese military were not 100% horrible - during the Boxer Rebellion and the Russo-Japanese War the Japanese behaved in a highly exemplar manner They treated their prisoners with great kindess and they did not ill-treat the Chinese civilians during the Boxer Rebellion - unlike the European troops. All this changed during the 1920 and 1940s though.)

[Aleksandr Nevsky]

Quote[/b] ](I should add that the Japanese military were not 100% horrible - during the Boxer Rebellion and the Russo-Japanese War the Japanese behaved in a highly exemplar manner They treated their prisoners with great kindess and they did not ill-treat the Chinese civilians during the Boxer Rebellion - unlike the European troops. All this changed during the 1920 and 1940s though.)

Yeah

Pretty interesting eh? I remember reading something along those lines that happened in World War I. The Japanese took over a few German Islands in the Pacific as their contribution to the war effort. (I don't know which Islands, when they did it, or how much fighting there was over them). Anyway the German prisoners taken from those Ilsands were treated so well that most of them ended up living in Japan after the war was over. (There weren't very many, and I don't think they stayed very long.)

Do you think the brutality exhibited by the Japanese military in the following decades could be attributed to the rebirth of the values of the old Samurai warriors in the Japanese military controlled government?

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]Do you think the brutality exhibited by the Japanese military in the following decades could be attributed to the rebirth of the values of the old Samurai warriors in the Japanese military controlled government?

You might be on to something. Prior to the asian conquests of the early 20th century the last time the Japanese invaded the Asian mainland (late 15th/early 16th? century) Shogun Hideyoshi was running the show and his forces absolutely ravaged the Korean peninsula and terrorized the local population. The atrocities were well known and widespread.

[Hakonarson]

Dances with Shogun - roight down to the Westerner becoming "samurai" and takign up with the pretty asian chick.

IMO a good movie - costumes worth an Oscar - the costume designer is nominated for 2 Oscars - this and LOTR: ROTK - but that's about all at that level.

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Jan. 28 2004,20:22)]IMO a good movie - costumes worth an Oscar
The costumes were indeed very impressive ... found it interesting to see somebody actually wearing a Menpo (sp?) - I think I have only seen this once in a movie before...

[Crimson Castle]

I would prefer Master and Commander to win Best Film instead. I liked it a lot. Damn good film. I saw it twice and would like to see it a third time.

I ... didn't like Return of the King so much. I thought the ROTK battle scenes were not as good as in Two Towers.

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (Alita @ Jan. 29 2004,05:08)]I would prefer Master and Commander to win Best Film instead.
Well, Last Samurai did not get a nomination for "Best Movie", but an Oscar in the "Costumes" category would be indeed well deserved

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

Quote[/b] (Mega Dux Bob @ Jan. 04 2004,15:40)]It was neat how the movie romanticized the guy who led to Japanies militarism. Given a chance Hollywood could do the same for the Nazis,...
WTF?

The only guy in there that really led to Japanese militariasm was Omura. They sure didnt romanticise him.

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

Quote[/b] (Longshanks @ Jan. 05 2004,01:57)]The romanticization of the Samurai is in itself a twisting of historical facts. The Samurai often behaved like savages, just the like the European knights who in prior years were romanticized by Hollywood. After the demise of the Samurai the code of Bushido, particularly it's unflinching devotion to loyalty, justified a multitude of war crimes commited by the Japanese during WW2. It's a good thing that both the Samurai and Bushido ended up on history's rubbish heap.
have you studied the samurai as deeply as you appear to have studied Medieval history? ave you even read the code of Bushido? have you read the Hagakure, The Book of Five Rings or the Art of War?

No?


then you are most definitely not qualified at least IMO to make that statement.


I have. And I can tell you that they were no better and no worse than the rest of historys fighting men.