Berserkers

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

So, does anybody think like me? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I personally think they are very overpowered. Specially their Excelent Defense. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif


Any opinions will be welcomed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Monk]

considering they take two turns to build and are only a unit of twelve, no they are not overpowered.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Yes, but they can face enourmous odds against them and leave the battle practically unscathed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
So, they are overpowered...

[Monk]

In my games, only if i send them at worthles units do they come out without a scratch. Try to throw a valor 0 beserker unit against some huscarls who have atleast 1 valor. Your berserkers may end up killing a lot, they may even route them, but they will have taken heavy losses themselves.

When i get my berserkers ready for combat, and if i use them like they were used back during those times, not many survive their third battle. A unit to me is only good for three battles before it has been torn down by losses. plus any sort of cavalry will rip through berserkers without much trouble.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]plus any sort of cavalry will rip through berserkers without much trouble.
You're sure?
I saw a post, with images, of 20 Mounted Nobles charging 6 Berserkers (small unit size). The Cav was routed (7 survivors) and the Berserkers didn't suffer a single casualty. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Monk]

I've sent berserkers against pictish cavalry before and they ended up Losing badly. i managed to get help to them but by that time they only had 5 men left.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I've sent berserkers against pictish cavalry before and they ended up Losing badly. i managed to get help to them but by that time they only had 5 men left.
I guess it depends a LOT on valour... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Ironside]

They are badass, but not overpowered. Their weakness is in their number.

Archers and flanking cav charges are devastating against them.

But I admit that they are a fearsome sight.

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 05 2004,14:56)]
Quote[/b] ]I've sent berserkers against pictish cavalry before and they ended up Losing badly. i managed to get help to them but by that time they only had 5 men left.
I guess it depends a LOT on valour... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
yeah i agree, a unit of berserker's effectivness really depends on their valor and that of their enemy.

I don't know if you have ever faced a man running at you screaming, as you look into his eyes and notice that in his face you see no fear and realize that the only thing that could stop this man was death, if you can imagine something like that, it is actually quite terrifying. Ca had to make the berserkers somewhat strong just to capture the warrior spirit they carried.

let me tell you something, if i saw a viking come over the top of the hill covered in blood cuttin himself, i woudn't stay around to find out if he could kill me no matter how many friends i had with me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

he'd have to catch me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]let me tell you something, if i saw a viking come over the top of the hill covered in blood cuttin himself, i woudn't stay around to find out if he could kill me no matter how many friends i had with me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

he'd have to catch me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Run, Monk, run... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Ludens]

The power of any fanatical warrior, be they beserkers or sohei, lies in the fact that they do not fear pain or death. They just come charging straight at you, even if your spear points in their direction. The instinctive reaction to that kind of fury is to duck. Even if he runs right at your spear, you can still expect to get quite a shock. If you haven't got a spear or polearm, you are going to be hit by his weapon no matter what you do. Your only hope is to block. So people duck. However, an experienced or clever soldier will realize this is not enough. You need to kill him quickly. And that's easy, since they don't fear pain. The trick is to kill them while they don't kill you. The trick is to stab or slash at them while at the SAME time blocking their blow.
So a unit of fanatics is very dangerous for inexperienced troops, but veterans should have little trouble with them.

Having written that, I'm going to hide until that Viking running behind Monk is out of sight. See Ya...

:Disappears into nearby shadow:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Having written that, I'm going to hide until that Viking running behind Monk is out of sight. See Ya...
Good tip indeed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I think I'll do the same... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

*runs to the nearest hiding place*

[HawaiianHobbit]

I don't think they are overpowered because my berserkers always come out with heavy losses.

[Monk]

All good points, now will somebody please Help me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

:Monk routes: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[The_Emperor]

Berserkers are fine as they are, as only a 12 man unit they rarely survive a real meatgrinder battle... However their small number does mean that they can gain valour a lot easier than a 60 man unit of Vikings.

I don't think they are overpowered, but I do think the Huscarls are http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]All good points, now will somebody please Help me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

:Monk routes: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Do not worry, your Holiness The pagan shall pay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Prince Aymar de Bois Mauri to the rescue... ...and his 19 bodyguards. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Monk]

:Monk is still running away:

Hey Viking he shouts over his shoulder as he runs.

What do you want pathetic Monk? the berserker shouts back filled with anger.

Those cavalry are coming, but i can't see them. The monk is worried as he askes of the cavalry's fate

Their dead you fool. laughs the Viking.

So, am *I* dead yet? The Monk askes still running.

Yeah pretty much. the Viking replies.

:suddenly a disc is ejected from a dvd player, the whole thing was just a movie, and sitting in chairs watching are two figures:

This goes on for a while one says, Like an hour.

But i got away right? The other askes not really sure.

Yeah... The first voice says, But they he started chasing you again.

Did you get the part where i finally killed him? The second voice.

Nah we recorded over that the first answers.

What? the second says clearly with anger in his voice.

Ehem, i mean we couldn't find it.. the first mumbles.

Then what was the point of hemming my arm off? the other shouts.

[chris]

hehehe funny

I think beserkers are nice, and if i feel like spending 350 florins, and 2 years to trainf or them, I have extra trainging I put them through. I will raid possible Orcades, and leave, letting the people rebel. I will then put my beserkers in an army, and attack . When i fight i make sure i put the beserkers in a situation wich wont dimish their numbers, but give them valro none the less. This whay they are worht having on the battle field. On the battle field, I use them as I would calvary, because vikings lack calvary. And this is how i use clavary.....though its proly the same as most



I get a good charge unit....mabey thralls, throw them at the enemy lines. While they are stabbing and such, they will generally start to loose moral. Before they do, or even if they don't, I send in a unit or two of my special trained beserkers, and the shock of 12 wild men hacking and slashing through the lines has much the same eefect as calvary. IN so many words, the enemy takes time to reform....if they do at all. This helps my thralls, becuase they have time to get happier and start going at it again, i might even pull them out and slam them back in while the enemy is fighting my berserkers.

Huscarles are overpowered in my opion, but when you think about it, they have to have somehting strong. huscarles just fill that role

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Then Monk awakened. Is face driping with sweat. He sighed, saying to himself:

Blessed the Almighty, for it was a just a nightmare But what a nightmare That accursed creature

He looked around, searching for the conforting vision of the stone walls of his small monastery cell, but was surprised by the presence of a tall figure at his side.

The tall shape speaked to him in a familiar voice:

Welcome back from the shadow of thoughts, dear friend Me and my men thought thyself to be lost to eternal darkness

Monk, surprised, tried to link the imposing shadow to that apeasing voice, but the figure continued on:

Fortunatelly, it was not to be. By our Celestial Lord's will, you have eluded the grasp of Evil.

Babling, hesitating sounds left Monk's shaken mouth:

Buu...tt... whhhoo are you? And where is that devilish savage? And...

But, with a quick gesture, the shape interrupted and then leaning towards him, spoke:

Be calm, my friend An answer must follow a question. Soon, the tale of your tribulations will be clear to you.

Then, Monk marvelled at the sight of the shining armour in which that character was enshrouded. And towering above that glint, he recognized the face of his old friend, Pince Aymar of Mundburg.

Thus, after a short laugh, the tale of Monk's escape began to unfold. Prince Aymar spoke:

It was indeed fortunate, for me and my guard to be able to ride in your aid. For if it was not for that, grevious would your fate be. That savage would surelly have cursed you with his paganistic rituals after your painfull death.

But it was no so. The valiant knights of my house reached him as he was reaching for you. Terrible was he in his final moments. Even after beeing trespassed by three spears, he still fought on with terrible fury. Only when my sword decapitated him, was is threat surpassed.

My fear came after, seeing you motionless in the ground. Had that barbarian striked before beeing put to death?
But no. You were unscathed, although unconcious. But that savage's terrible influence must have striken deep into your soul, for the physicians were unable to awaken you, or even aliviate your feverish alucinations. It's been three days since those events ocurred. But now, finally, you'll be able to recover.

Monk, relieved, rejoiced. He spoke that he would be able to rest from his tribulations in the confort of his cell or in the peacefull company of other monks. He would soon return to the routine occupations of the monastery and the memories of that frightning experience would fade away. But Prince Aymar looked on, somewhat surprised. Then, paciently, he spoke:

But, surelly you remember the Bishop's words, don't you? Surelly you haven't forgoten them, have you?

Then, Monk, puzzled, asked:

The Bishop? What words? What words has he spoken? I cannot remember...

Aymar, troubled and concerned, said:

The words about the voyage, your voyage The promisse which you made before him. You must surelly remember that

And Monk, each moment more unsure of himself, asked:

What promisse?

And Aymar answered:

To convert the Pagans. In their homelands. To aliviate their rampaging raids, like that one from which we saved you. What else could it be?

And as those last terrifying words were spoken, Monk felt sweat pouring through his face, the tightning of his throat and a painfull stabb in his heart.

[Ludens]

Poor Monk,
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

*bows*

Thank you, Count Ludens. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

*bows*

[makkyo]

If you ask me (you're probably not sob sob http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif ) I wouldn't care if the're if they're overpowered or not. I love having them come in completely outnumbered and coming out victorious (alond with all the dead bodies litering the landscape http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif )
It looks amazing Reminds me of Braveheart.... except that a lot of Scot die too.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

You do realise that Braveheart is just another Hollywood movie, don't you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Any similarity with William Wallace's life and battles is purelly coincidental... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[chris]

too true too true. The director even said it wasnt supposed to be historically accurate, just a movie. if you want to see justa movie and not a documentary, then yeah its awesome.....but something bugs me, where was stirling bridge???????

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]but something bugs me
Only something?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Then you're a happy man... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Good poll, nice gah option which does not make it in all polls and that's unfortunate.

Berserkers overpowered?

Probably not in SP, and certainly not in MP where they are just 12 guys with nothing special (no valour upgrade during battle must hurt them a bit I guess... but size matters if without special abilities like naphta thrower and that make them of little interest).

Louis,

[Gregoshi]

No unit is overpowered when I'm in command. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]No unit is overpowered when I'm in command. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Talk about confidence, Gregoshi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Math Mathonwy]

aye i always take out berserks with archers, they run shirtless and carry only swords.

Quote[/b] ]Probably not in SP, and certainly not in MP where they are just 12 guys with nothing special (no valour upgrade during battle must hurt them a bit I guess... but size matters if without special abilities like naphta thrower and that make them of little interest).

i agree, they r basically worthless in MP except maybe against peasants r something.

[johnnybrigante]

i can't believe no one mentioned the low maintenance costs..... or their speed, to stick to the battlefield.... also, berserkers are much more manoueverable (aah tricky word) than huscarles, for example.

on top of that they have an incredible defense for a bunch of guys running around without their shirts. and even if a few - say, 4 or 5 - of them die during a battle - usually the first you send them in (though not very likely, since they are natural-born-badasses) - the remaining berserkers gain so much valour so quickly that in the future they aren't likely to lose more than 1 or 2 man per battle unless they get trapped between two huscarles or similar.

so, it would come down to, lets say, 3 turns (average) for you to have a high-valour berserker unit (i.e. 6 turns, train 3 units, total 36 men, at the first battle 12 die, so now you got 2 full units with significant valour). at a irrelevant maintenance cost, inflicting,in the process, dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of casualties to your enemies. and that is only the beggining..... i'll have to vote that yes, berserkers ARE overpowered. (that's why i train dozens of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif until i get joms vikings of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]i can't believe no one mentioned the low maintenance costs..... or their speed, to stick to the battlefield.... also, berserkers are much more manoueverable (aah tricky word) than huscarles, for example.
Yeap, that's true



Quote[/b] ]on top of that they have an incredible defense for a bunch of guys running around without their shirts.
That is actually one of my MAIN problems with them.



Quote[/b] ]and even if a few - say, 4 or 5 - of them die during a battle - usually the first you send them in (though not very likely, since they are natural-born-badasses) - the remaining berserkers gain so much valour so quickly that in the future they aren't likely to lose more than 1 or 2 man per battle unless they get trapped between two huscarles or similar.
Agreed, high valor Berserkers are, IMHO, INVENCIBLE



Quote[/b] ]so, it would come down to, lets say, 3 turns (average) for you to have a high-valour berserker unit (i.e. 6 turns, train 3 units, total 36 men, at the first battle 12 die, so now you got 2 full units with significant valour). at a irrelevant maintenance cost, inflicting,in the process, dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of casualties to your enemies. and that is only the beggining..... i'll have to vote that yes, berserkers ARE overpowered. (that's why i train dozens of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif until i get joms vikings of course
You mean an army with 16 high valor Berserker units??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked.gif
That's a meat grinder, if I ever saw one

[Monk]

If you think their overpowered why don't you just mod their stats, lower them and be done with it?


Quote[/b] ]so, it would come down to, lets say, 3 turns (average) for you to have a high-valour berserker unit (i.e. 6 turns, train 3 units, total 36 men, at the first battle 12 die, so now you got 2 full units with significant valour). at a irrelevant maintenance cost, inflicting,in the process, dozens and dozens (if not hundreds) of casualties to your enemies. and that is only the beggining..... i'll have to vote that yes, berserkers ARE overpowered. (that's why i train dozens of them until i get joms vikings of course

Of corse, theres a fix to this, don't train so many. I usualy only keep one unit of berserkers in each army to prevent what you just decribed, any more isn't fair to the AI imo.


Quote[/b] ]on top of that they have an incredible defense for a bunch of guys running around without their shirts.



Then mod their defense ratting.



Quote[/b] ]Quote
i can't believe no one mentioned the low maintenance costs..... or their speed, to stick to the battlefield.... also, berserkers are much more manoueverable (aah tricky word) than huscarles, for example.


All one must do is mod their speed, turn speeds and unit cost. Just go Download the Genome editor and get to work, just don't complain when they are Underpowered http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

[Cazbol]

I think they're just right as they are. A fine mix of strengths and weaknesses. The long training time is actually a very severe limitation. It means that for each unit of berserkers that you train, your opponent can train 2 units to counter, and a unit of berserkers sandwiched between two units of mounted nobles has grim prospects. Archers have been mentioned as a good countermeasure and this applies to other missile units. I'm playing the Irish at the moment and a good salvo of spears from my bonnachts can wipe out a large part of a berserker unit. Even carefully nurtured valour won't help them there.

Actually, I think berserkers are a prime example of a good CA balancing job.

[the_rydster]

In the short time that I have been using them I would say that Beserkers are best used as specialist 'shock troops'.

Their small numbers makes them vulnerable in a battle of attrition, and because they are vulnerable to Archers and Cavely they should not lead the attack, rather they should be used to attack the enemys flanks/rear with the aim of routing enemy units. They could also be used to go after important enemy kings/Generals.

As to if they are overpowered or not I think that depends upon upon if you are playing with or without them

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Sigurd]

The embodiment of Odin’s power throbbing in your veins can never be overbearing. Those men knowing the secrets of Berserkrgangr have in addition to what’s mentioned, no feel of pain and an incredible rage. This will make them strong like bears and one would be able to cleave a man in twain with one stroke of ones sword.
Their only weakness should be that they tire fast and become like babies not able to lift their heads after those berserker fits.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Their only weakness should be that they tire fast and become like babies not able to lift their heads after those berserker fits.
I know it hasn't been proven but, didn't they used alucinogenic mushrooms to help them reach that berserking state?

BTW, nice SIG, Lord Sigurd Fafnesbane http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Sigurd]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Feb. 03 2004,04:22)]I know it hasn't been proven but, didn't they used alucinogenic mushrooms to help them reach that berserking state?

BTW, nice SIG, Lord Sigurd Fafnesbane http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

That is one variant the men of secular science, IOW man trying to explain the cause and effect of Berserkrgangr.
It is said that a variant of our poisonous fly mushroom caused this effect but only after years of conditioning the body to be able to withstand this deadly fungus.

The ones who truly know the secrets of Berserkrgangr and have had those secrets handed down through their patriarchal line from the days of greatness; know these theories to be utterly false.
The Berserkrgangr is a gift from our All-father and will only affect those truly worthy to be called soldiers of Odin.

[Eastside Character]

Master Berserker is right, they are not overpowered. They are just berserkers.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The ones who truly know the secrets of Berserkrgangr and have had those secrets handed down through their patriarchal line from the days of greatness; know these theories to be utterly false.
The Berserkrgangr is a gift from our All-father and will only affect those truly worthy to be called soldiers of Odin.
Now we know your beliefs, Master Sigurd Fafnesbane http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif




Quote[/b] ]Master Berserker is right, they are not overpowered. They are just berserkers.
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif