Religion?

[Wej]

I'm new at this and wanted to know if you guys ever convert to Christianity for the game. I did once, then all of my buddist provinces revolted. I haven't done it since. I just wanted to get a fell what the majority do. Thanks

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

I dont normally. But if you do make sure you have enough troops in every province to counteract the revolts. Basically only do it if you are safe from attack and have troops to spare.

Then you can have guns and laugh while the enemy hugh and pugh but cant kill ur men. :@

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Jaguara]

I have never switched to Christianity.

When I started playing Shogun, one of the vets was saying not to convert...just wait for the Dutch to land. Unfortunately, I have always finished the game before the Dutch actually arrive... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

So I have yet to fool around with muskets in single player...or even to fight against them much, since most AI clans will not convert either.

[Flame of Udun]

I purposely hold myself back from attacking until 1540 (starting at 1530) I usually play Oda so by then Owari has almost everything needed to take over japan. I almost always convert its just better to have guns early and if any province revolts you can shoot down those monks with your guns I once held back 360 Monks with 120 guns and 120 ashi (weather was clear http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif )

[Katasaki Hirojima]

I do all the time, It makes the gamealot more interesting and is very lucrative after the innitial investment.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[hecose]

I always convert, to make the game more challenging and more fun (guns). I always build 6 churches as soon as possible and then the cathedral, in order to be able to train musketeers.

When you first convert, make sure you have troops and/or shinobi in provinces with buddhist temples and newly conquered provinces. It is also advisable to lower taxes.

[Koga No Goshi]

As long as you convert fairly early, adn don't have buddhist monasteries and tranquil gardens in your provinces, I've never had a problem with revolts. The tradeoff is worth it if you are playing Mori or Shimazu. The trade and church profits can make otherwise unprofitable lands very profitable.



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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Cheetah]

I think it depends on which Clan you play with. With Shimazu it is worth the trouble but I never convert with Takeda or with Imagawa. I never played Uesugi or Hojo but I guess they are strong enough without it.

If you convert make sure you have at lest two units in each of your provinces (don't need good units, ashis are good enough), shinobis and lowering taxes can help too. Start to produce jesuite priests as soon as possible, they will convert your people to the new faith.

[Vanya]

Convert! Or yee shall burn in the fires of Hell, you heretic!

GAH!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

[Gothmog]

Convert early on, then for every coastal province, you add at least 400 more koku to your coffer (200 from port, 200 from trading post).

Build churches, then you get more koku.

And if you play one of those late scenarioes, you might linger till Dutches arrive, accept their trade treaty as well.

Then you can build TWO trading posts, one port, and one church in each and every coastal province. We are talking about some big money here.



[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 02-21-2002).]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

"wanted to know if you guys ever convert to Christianity for the game."

Nope - why? I mean - am I going to burn if I play shogun without confessing my sins before I play? Is shogun got some secret code that makes it better if you convert before you start playing? And what about after I play shogun - should I convert back to whatever other religion I am?

Seriously - no I hardly ever accept the spanish offer. To me, its not worth it. While in the long run, a conversion can mean more cash, I never suffer economically after the first few years anyway. Gaining guns early is not a large advantage for me, due to my playing style.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
"ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"

[Sword_Monkey]

It's not exactly a strategic advantage, but it's an interesting twist on the game. It's a fun trade-off -> access to guns and extra income but at the cost of warrior monks and having to spend several years on infrastructure and conversion of your main territory before you can begin your frontline expansion again.

It also depends heavily on who you're playing. Obviously as Mori, big no-no, but someone like Shimazu has "baptise me" in big glowing letters written on his forehead.

[Vlad The Impaler]

yes , for some clans the adition of guns isnt at all recommended; Mori is one and Uesugi i think is the second ; Shimazu must be baptized , is great for them to have an extra income and an counter for heavy troops that they not produce ( NagInf & HCav ) as easy as other clans ; at the start they dont have armourery province in their main base
guns and cristianity can do the most help for Oda; some huge ashigaru armies can be good armies but they requires finesse --see Oda agains huge Takeda charge in one the historical battles , Nagashima i thin...i'm not sure
i like to play Mori and Uesugi so i'm not convert..even if with Mori i really need cash and trading post and churches can bring a lot of koku;
I think is more about game playing style; i found it fun to play with an christian dayimo ( Shimazu ) and try to conquer the others; but , i like more Mori Imagawa and Uesugi ( of course , all this after Oda http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif )

[Wej]

Thanks for all your input. If I do convert, should I destroy all my buddist temples?



[This message has been edited by Wej (edited 02-22-2002).]

[Sword_Monkey]

Why do people recommend against Takeda converting?

I've never tried it with him but it seems it should be doable and even potentially beneficial. If you can secure both the eastern and western fronts you'd have second crack (or first if you've taken Shimazu down) at conversion AND have an easy route into the eastern half of the map with your missionaries.

Is there something I'm missing here? The only thing I can think of is that you can't exactly go pure cav for your army but I never do that anyhow.

[Cheetah]

Well, it is not a recommendation I just never convert with Takeda. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif The reasion is that I give up the three provinces under Mori and go for Hojo and Uesugi. But if you can keep those three provinces then it could be feasible. I never tried it.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

I never use guns anyway! Too dishonourable and cowardly. The Katana (or No Dachi in this case) is perfectly good at maiming men on the battlefield, plus you get to see the faces of the men you kill. (obviously not in shogun) So i rarely convert, but if I do its for the money, plus you can get stronger alliances with other christian Daimyo.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[hecose]

If you already have a buddhist temple when you convert to Christianity, you can still produce warrior monks after you convert.

If you are Christian and you conquer provinces that have buddhist temples, you can use them to produce warrior monks.

[Sword_Monkey]

Quote Originally posted by hecose:
If you already have a buddhist temple when you convert to Christianity, you can still produce warrior monks after you convert.

If you are Christian and you conquer provinces that have buddhist temples, you can use them to produce warrior monks. [/QUOTE]

That's true, but I try to keep a bit of role playing in my game - if I go Christian am I really going to want those damned heathens fighting for me? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

I make a decision early on - am I going to convert or not? If so, I structure my development towards not having monks and burn those temples to the false gods as I drive my enemies before me.

When I don't convert, same applies in reverse. If some freak Daimyo brings the gaijin superstition into Japan, I rain a mass of armoured monks on his head http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Very historically accurate Sword. Nice to see the game is not just kill everyone in sight!

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[james]

sometimes I do but before I always make sure my loyalty is up quite high.usually just for the guns

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know yourself and you will never be defeated

smillie.james@btopenworld.com

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Guns are not always good. People get guns in SP and then make 16-unit gun armies which fall apart.

Choose the honourable path and stray from any Gaijin.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Gothmog]

Nobody with common sense will include 16 units of guns in SP. 4 is more than enough.

Not wanting to use ranged weapon (guns, archers, xbows, CAs) doesn't make anyone more honorable. For otherwise flanking, attacking from behind, ambush, taking advantage of the terrain ... all those brilliant tactics will fall into the "dishonorable" category.

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Goth what do you think the whole point about Gaijin was. They were considered dishonourable with their cowardly weapons. Not knowing who you were killing defies the idea of japan and its history with swords.
Also I said nothing about ranged units being dishonourable, just guns. Guns were not a Japanese weapon, and so they were considered not good enough for Japanese warfare, they went against the Japanese ideal of Bushido.
The idea of tactics has nothing to do with this. Flanking and so on can still be accomplished and is in no way dishonourable. You say that you only flank with CA or archers or guns, No Dachi Monks Cavalry! Any unit can flank if you tell it to. Thats not what was considered dishonourable, the fact that you had no idea who you shot with the gun was.

Archers were more commonly ashigaru than samurai. As it too was some what a cowards weapon.

What Iam saying is that historical accuracy would be that not many daimyo became christian. But even less used guns until it was the only way to win. The problem was that when one did he had an unfair advantage and would always win, so everyone had to have guns to make it more fair.

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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Koga No Goshi]

Quote Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
"wanted to know if you guys ever convert to Christianity for the game."

Nope - why? I mean - am I going to burn if I play shogun without confessing my sins before I play? Is shogun got some secret code that makes it better if you convert before you start playing? And what about after I play shogun - should I convert back to whatever other religion I am?

Seriously - no I hardly ever accept the spanish offer. To me, its not worth it. While in the long run, a conversion can mean more cash, I never suffer economically after the first few years anyway. Gaining guns early is not a large advantage for me, due to my playing style.

Qapla!

[/QUOTE]


Would that make you a "Shogun Morning Christian"? > http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif




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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Koga No Goshi]

Quote Originally posted by Sword_Monkey:
Why do people recommend against Takeda converting?

I've never tried it with him but it seems it should be doable and even potentially beneficial. If you can secure both the eastern and western fronts you'd have second crack (or first if you've taken Shimazu down) at conversion AND have an easy route into the eastern half of the map with your missionaries.

Is there something I'm missing here? The only thing I can think of is that you can't exactly go pure cav for your army but I never do that anyhow.[/QUOTE]

I just started a game this morning with Takeda and converted as soon as I could, and it works great for me. Until about mid-game, Takeda is pretty much chronically strapped for cash, even after taking Musashi. And even with the clan discount, Cavalry aren't cheap compared to the masses of Yari Sam/Ashigaru and Archers the AI throws at you repeatedly. So, just when Mino and Kozuke (my western and eastern "frontiers") were getting repeatedly hit by armies 2x their size made up of cheap units and I was getting ground down, I started pumping out arquebusiers and it really turned the tide. I've never tried a heavy duty guns-and-cavalry strategy before, but it's working great. I don't even really need Yari Samurai at all. Just 4 Musketeers and 2 Cav Archers and then a mixture of 4 or so Nag Cav, Yari Cav, and Heavy Cav. That way, I let the enemy infantry walk up to my guns, which usually maims and/or routs a lot of them, and then my Cavalry rolls up on the sides and flanks anything that hasn't run yet. Works very nicely, usually very few casualties.

But, this strategy might not work for people who love using warrior monks. Personally I almost never use them with Takeda, since as I said before, they're so hard up for money for half of the game. Most people say they're "done with the game by the time they could really make use of guns, so they're not very useful." For me it's the opposite.. by the time I've got enough free cash to pump out warrior monks in big numbers, it's halfway through the game or later. Guns are cheap and useful.

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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Sword_Monkey]

Quote Originally posted by Toda Nebuchadnezzar:
Goth what do you think the whole point about Gaijin was. They were considered dishonourable with their cowardly weapons. Not knowing who you were killing defies the idea of japan and its history with swords.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, but as the Daimyo who has seen the great light of the Lord on high, it is your most sacred duty to show the error of their ways to the other Daimyo in any way possible http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif If guns speed up the process then just think of all the souls you're saving from the firey pit of Hell.

Cowardly indeed, tell the honorable heathens to come say that to my Christian Daimyo's face (and he'll show them the business end of his thundersticks, KABOOM!) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[james]

should i have meantioned guns?

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

oh the comedy...

------------------
Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif

[Moriboy]

Sword_Monkey, the only thing those Christian Arques & Musketeers say when my Nagi, Yari & HC pour into them is JESUS CHRIST!!!!! They usually don't even have time to cross themselves let alone genuflect!

[Gothmog]

Really? Attack their river province in clear weather then. I wonder what your Yari, Nagi, or HC would say before a stray bullet send them to nivada. Haha.