Avar Nobles

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Where were, historicaly, Avars in 1087?

It is known that they invaded Central Europe beggining in 552AD. I've read some books that mention their realm in Northern Hungary from 558AD to 803AD. Charlemagne's attacks, in 791AD and 796AD, eventually destroyed this realm. Nothing else is mentioned and I could not find any note about a possible migration to other parts of Europe. Presumably they left the Frankish borders and moved east.

Is CA correct presenting them in Moldavia in 1087?

Any explanation will be gratefully apreciated... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Brutal DLX]

IIRC, avars were descendants of Attila the Hun's army, therefore placing them around the Hungarian plains could be correct, perhaps Moldavia was chosen because in MTW it is close to the Steppe provinces so the player could make a mental connection to steppe warriors when he's looking at their abilities.
For the exact historical location, a google search could yield some results, I think.

[Cebei]

You are right Aymar,

The Avars in the game are not original Avars. I think they are the Kabars, which are the decendants of the original Avars. Avars were pushed west by the Turkic/Mongol tribes in the Central Asia and they settled in East Europe where they founded Avar Khanate in 502 AD. They fought Bulgars and Slavs as an ally of the Byzantine Empire and controlled the territory between Volga and Elbe rivers to Baltic Sea. They were defeated by Charlemagne in early 9th century. After this defeat three Avar tribes, known as Kabars in sources, settled in Transylvania. Later Skelezy tribes represented the Avars in the E.Europe.

Actually real Avars were settled in Caucasus and we see their mention in the sources once again in the 19th century, where Imam Shamil rallied Caucasus against the Russians.

So, surely there were other powers dominating east Europe than Avars in the 11th century. But, perhaps CA had other sources and think that Avars formed a social-military elite in the east Europe.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]IIRC, avars were descendants of Attila the Hun's army, therefore placing them around the Hungarian plains could be correct
Sorry, but I think you're wrong, they arrived in Europe later then the Huns, although their realm's location is very similar to the Huns.




Quote[/b] ]therefore placing them around the Hungarian plains could be correct, perhaps Moldavia was chosen because in MTW it is close to the Steppe provinces so the player could make a mental connection to steppe warriors when he's looking at their abilities.
Well, I understand their decision. But, since I'm making this question concerning my MOD, which has some historical corrections, I would like the Avar's location to be historically realistic.




Quote[/b] ]For the exact historical location, a google search could yield some results, I think.
Of course. But I was hoping to get an easier job on that, relying on the forum's members enlightned opinions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif




Quote[/b] ]The Avars in the game are not original Avars. I think they are the Kabars, which are the decendants of the original Avars. Avars were pushed west by the Turkic/Mongol tribes in the Central Asia and they settled in East Europe where they founded Avar Khanate in 502 AD. They fought Bulgars and Slavs as an ally of the Byzantine Empire and controlled the territory between Volga and Elbe rivers to Baltic Sea. They were defeated by Charlemagne in early 9th century. After this defeat three Avar tribes, known as Kabars in sources, settled in Transylvania. Later Skelezy tribes represented the Avars in the E.Europe.

Actually real Avars were settled in Caucasus and we see their mention in the sources once again in the 19th century, where Imam Shamil rallied Caucasus against the Russians.

So, surely there were other powers dominating east Europe than Avars in the 11th century. But, perhaps CA had other sources and think that Avars formed a social-military elite in the east Europe.
Very interesting reading http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

But this is going to complicate my problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

I'll explain...

I'm making some gameplay-wise alterations that might not be so historically correct, but increase the fun-factor.

I was hoping to allow Avar Nobles to be Hired or Trained with some specific conditions. I still don't have a defined idea if they'll be available to any specific faction, to all or to none. Maybe something like I have done with the Khazar Royal Cavalary. I've made them trainable by building a palace in Khazar, besides the normal requirements. A bit like if they were vassals of the conquering faction.

However with Cebei's answer, maybe Hungary will be a candidate... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

What do you think? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]I was hoping to allow Avar Nobles to be Hired or Trained with some specific conditions. I still don't have a defined idea if they'll be available to any specific faction, to all or to none. Maybe something like I have done with the Khazar Royal Cavalary. I've made them trainable by building a palace in Khazar, besides the normal requirements. A bit like if they were vassals of the conquering faction.


Then how about hiring them only? As the conqueror, you wont include Avars into the imperial army (like other groups in the area you reign, Khazars too for example) but you exercise suzeranity over their khanate (like Ottomans did with the Crimean Tatars), and intead of training (which shows their unconditional loyalty to you), you may want to hire them in times of war. That would be damn realistic and fun. Also you may want to include a huge number of Avars in rebellions. And yes Hungary would be nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

--edit--

No Hungary isnt nice, after looking at the map, I think Moldavia may be better. It has to be around Romania.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Then how about hiring them only? As the conqueror, you wont include Avars into the imperial army (like other groups in the area you reign, Khazars too for example) but you exercise suzeranity over their khanate (like Ottomans did with the Crimean Tatars), and intead of training (which shows their unconditional loyalty to you), you may want to hire them in times of war. That would be damn realistic and fun. Also you may want to include a huge number of Avars in rebellions.
Well, I was thinking about forcing us to build a Inn as requirement for training, more than just one for hiring them.
It's damn hard to find the right units in Inns http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

That is one of the reasons for some of my alterations:

In my MOD, Almughavars, Alan Mercenary Cavalary and Turcopoles all need an Inn, besides other requirements...


BTW, how do I force the game to have LOTS of Avars as Rebels, in Moldavia? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Cebei]

Well I am not a modder, but I try to be the historical fact provider for mods. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Well I am not a modder, but I try to be the historical fact provider for mods.
HEHEHEHE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

It's good you are

Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif