Retraining units

[jehan]

Hi guys,

just wanted to know what is your opinion on retraining troops and how it affects their valor.
Last night I sent three units for retraining, two of which had valor figures of 2 and 3, they both dropped down two figures right away while the third unit which had a valor figure of seven didn't drop a notch??

Anyways you opinions would be welcome on this aspect.

[Demequis]

Hi Jehan,

This is how I understand the retraining deal, and valour, someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Each individual man in a unit has a value for his valour, the valour of the unit is the average of everyone's valour in the unit. This is why if you combine a veteran unit of 4 valour, but with half strength men, with a green unit of half strength, you come out with a full strength unit at 2 valour.

I believe that retraining works the same way. If you send a unit at half strength to be retrained then if should come out with half the valour, and full strength (if their is a valour bonus to production of that unit in the province then of course the valour would be higher, just average the values of the troops added with the original troops).

What I'm not sure about retraining is if you send in a green unit, will it receive the valour bonus from the province? I.E. you send in green chiv men at arms, do they become 1 valour if retrained once there is a master swordsmith?

As for your unit that retained it's 7 valour, the only thing I can think of is that it was possibly a bodyguard unit? If you sent a unit of royal knights to get retrained (perhaps you want the new armor upgrades you just built, etc?) then they should come out of their trainign with the new armor, and since no new men were added, the valour should remain the same.

I think that sometimes bodyguard units just have really high starting valour anyway, but I'm not sure about this, so if it was a partially depleted unit that might explain that? (do they receive the same valour as the general has stars, instead of stars/2?).


Anyway, I hope I shed some light on your situation, perhaps someone else can clear up any points I missed, or mistook?

[Revenant69]

Well the question of retraining units is a complex one so I shall answer it to the best of my abilities.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that the valor displayed on the strategic or tactical map is the average valor of every man in a unit. For example, if you have 60 jannisaries of which 20 have valor 1, 20 have valor 2 and 20 have valor 3; then the average valor would be (20*1 + 20*2 + 20*3)/60 = 2.

Sometimes during battles you can see valor of your unit drop and it means that some skilled fighters were killed thus reducing the overall valor of the unit.

NOTE: The valor displayed in the strategic and tactical map is there only for DISPLAY, to let you know the average capabilities of the unit. The game keeps track of all valor/morale/weapon upgrade for individual soldiers

So, getting back to the question of retraining units.....

Firstly, if you have high valor unit (3 or higher) that is severely depleted (less than half strength) I wouldnt recommend retraining it. Wait and combine several high valor units to create full units of veteran and elite status. WARNING: This could get very tedious, so if you do not like to micromanage then do not do it.

Thing is, when you retrain a full strength unit, it doesnt lose anything, it only gets benefited from morale/weapon/armor upgrades in the province you are retraining it at. I once had a unit of Jannisary Heavy Infantry that had valor 7 after fighting on the Mongol front. Retrained with max morale/armor - they were steamrollers from hell. So you should try retraining units that are full strength (or very close).

When you retrain a depleted unit, say a unit of JHI, that has 45 men of valor 4; then the game adds 15 fresh recruits (accurate IMHO) of valor 0, meaning that the average valor of your retrained unit is 3 nstead of 4. This does not mean that your men lose valor it only means that the average valor is lowered due to the green recruits.

Well, one of the main advantages of retraining is that the retrained unit gets all morale/ weapon/ armor upgrades available in that province. Tahts why sometimes it is handy to retrain units in provinces that have IRON and built up metalsmiths because then the unit will gain weapon upgrades.

Oh, one thing i almost forgot to mention, you can only retrain units if you have necessary buildings to build that unit in the first place (in the province where you are retraining them). So, for example, if you are Turks and you pump out your JHI fom Constantinople....err Istanbul, then the JHI can be retrained only in Istanbul, since you cannot have more than 1 military academy.

Hopefully this answers some of your questions. This post is in no means exhaustive as there are many more dsetails about retraining that I care or phisically can post, but this should get you started.

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

EDIT: YEs units retrained in provinces with valor bonuses will receive these valor bonuses. Thus, if you retrain a unit of billmen of valor 0, and you do it in Mecia (which gives +1 valorto this particular unit) and say Mercia has Master Spearmaker (another +1 valor to all spear units), then your billmen will come out with 2 valor.

EDIT2: Your unit of 7 valor was probably full strength or very near it and so didnt lose any display valor as the result becuase it got few green recruits (if any).

[mbrasher1]

Hi guys.

I retrained for awhile, but then I noticed that I could combine two units together. This has the same effect as retaining, and is superior.

Since retraining only let's you rebuild up to the limit of your unit, you are actually losing men when you retrain.

How??

If you retrain a 30 man JHI back into a 60 man JHI, you have added 30 men to your army. Why not train a whole new unit of JHI and then you have added 60, or twice as many.

Does retraining offer your veterans the shield and weapons upgrades offered to new units? Maybe. I do not know. Let's go back to our example.

If I retrain, I have 60 men, 30 definitely possessing the new weapons/armor and 30 that might have it.

If I build a new force, I have 60 men with new weapons/armor and 30 guys with their extant weapons/armor. Unless it was a really crappily armored unit that can be brought up from W0A0 to W4A4, I'd rather have the greater number of new guys.

Edit: Oh yeah. After building your new unit and putting it in the same army as your depleted veterans, drag the new unit ontop the veterans and the veteran unit is full again.

[PseRamesses]

My idea on this topic is to,

1. In peacetime I let my stacks roll around my provs clockwise, stack by stack, getting the latest upgrades.
2. In wartime I have a retaining-stack (or several) following my main army filling the gaps from casualities.

Try it, it´s working fine, and you don´t have to micromanage so much. Just every 16th year.

[ichi]

Excellent responses

I try to combine depleted units.

As my army moves over the map I take depleted units and keep them in a stack just behind the front. As my unit types become more numerous, I sometimes keep a stack of cav and a stack of infantry. This allows me to easily keep track of depleted units AND helps keep the happiness up in the provinces that I took not too long ago.

But sometimes I wind up with the lone guy. Sometimes a general (one with stars, or virtues, or a royal family member, or a guy that married a princess) won't combine into another stack. Unless these loners have a nasty vice I usually wait until I have two or three and then send them back for retraining.

I rarely use the auto-combine function (I tend to micro-manage).

ichi

[Si GeeNa]

Hi mbrasher1 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

You have pointed out something interesting.

However, if you play units at Huge, you will find that retraining units to be a much better choice than building a new one.

Why?

Because you take 2 turns to build a new unit, and 1 turn to retrain it, even if it is down to a single man. As such, most of the units you have, you try not to combine them till they are gone, otherwise, you lose the entire unit which you can much faster refit if you retrain.

Of course, my point is only valid if you play at Huge units.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Ludens]

It is a common mistake to think that by merging the weapons / armour upgrades of units are diminished. Valour is kept track of on individual basis, but upgrades are on unit basis.

So, if you have a severly depleted cavarly unit, say 4 men, with max upgrades, and add to it a unit of 56 unupgraded cavalry, you end up with 60 fully upgraded cavalry. Think of it as that the newcomers are equiped with the materials of the dead men.
(If you fill up the unit of 56 with the 4, I don't know what happens)

This has been discussed before, but I cannot find the thread.

To upgrade but without retraining a unit, you do not need the training building for that particular unit. I once upgraded a unit of samurai archers containing my heir, in a province without a bow dojo.

[k1injuries]

How do you merge depleted units?

When you say merge do you mean taking 20 spearmen in 1 unit and merging that with another 20 in another unit to make 40 spearmen of 1 unit?

Or do you mean just placing them in the same stack.

On another note, how does the game determine who will govern each territory? The gen with the title or the unit leader with the most acumen?

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (k1injuries @ Jan. 09 2004,11:43)]How do you merge depleted units?
When you say merge do you mean taking 20 spearmen in 1 unit and merging that with another 20 in another unit to make 40 spearmen of 1 unit?
Or do you mean just placing them in the same stack.
You merge two units by placing them in the same stack, and then draging the unit icon on the unit bar to the unit you wish to be reinforced.
The computer will sometimes do some automerging with very depleted units, but this is not enough.

[katar]

when i start getting units returning from battle that are depleted, i withdraw them to a safe province and replace them in the frontline with a green unit.

over time i build up a good collection of depleted, but high valour units, these are then merged to give me full strength units, after that i send them to a province that can upgrade them with the best in weapons and armour.

i repeat this process several times, accumulating more valour each time they go through the meatgrinder.

it`s amazing what you can do when you end up with two full stacks of units that all have a valour of 5 and above http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif


p.s. and this does not include any bonuses recieved from generals with virtues relating to battle either. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Contra]

I just wonder what happens when you sort of pour solders from a new unit to the old depleted unit and then move them back, and agian?
Will the veterans be evenly distributed between both units or they will stick to their old general? Did somebody check the stats after doing so?

[Gregoshi]

Welcome Contra, thanks for joining us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Could you clarify a bit?

k1, to combine units you click on the stack (army) so that all the units are displayed in the bottom central area of the screen. Then you left-click and drag on depleted unit on top of another depleted unit.


Quote[/b] ]On another note, how does the game determine who will govern each territory? The gen with the title or the unit leader with the most acumen?

The last sentence is confusing (at least to me), but your question is a good one. What exactly is the AI's criteria for selecting which general gets a title? I don't recall seeing an answer to this question but perhaps another patron knows.

[Contra]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Jan. 09 2004,10:05)]I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Could you clarify a bit?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Ok, to add new soldiers to the depleted unit you place 2 units (old and new) in the same army. Then you take soldiers from the New and pour them into the Old. After that you may pour them back, right? Which is Old you can always say by the generals name.
Q: After you pour back and forward, will veterans be evenly distributed between Old and New, or they will stick to their general, thus all veterans will remain in the Old?

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]After that you may pour them back, right? Which is Old you can always say by the generals name.


i`m afraid you`ve lost me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

say you have two units in the stack and both are depleted, one is a new unit with 0 valour and another is a vetran unit with 3 valour.

you drag the new unit over the vetran one which fills up the vetran unit to full strength, but the new men lower the OVERALL valour of the unit down to 2.

you then send this unit with valour 2 back into battle to gain more glory, and hopefully more valour.

example:
over time you do this to several units, eventually giving you six units depleted units, all with valour 3, then you pick the worst valour 3 unit you have (say the leader of that unit has poor loyalty) and drag it over the other units to bring them up to full strength, giving you five full strength units with valour 3.

i also have a habit of using this to remove men from units with bad leaders, usually ending up with just the leader by himself, who i then disband, or if it is a prince he gets sent of on a solo suicide mission against several stacks of enemy soldiers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gregoshi]

I think I got it now Contra. When you merge two units, they don't (always?) merge completely. Sometimes the general of the unit being poured (unit A) stays as a unit all by himself or a few companions stay with this unit. Then you take the unit that received the pour of new men (unit B) and drop it (pour) on top of the unit A.

That is a good question Contra. Not surprisingly, I don't have an answer.

[Loki]

Has anyone noticed this phenomenon related to retraining?

I've been trying to nail this one down but can't definatively confirm or deny it.

1 Retraining 2 or more units in a province.

2 First couple of units in the box have very light casualties. (mostly being retrained because of upgrades to W & A)

3 End Turn

4 (here's the tricky bit) Go back to look at province and I COULD SWEAR that more than 1 unit has been retrained in a single turn.

My thoughts are that either; (1)more than one unit got retrained in one turn because the total number of soldiers being outfitted were very low, or (2) I'm a numbskull and got preoccupied with a battle(s) and didn't get back to looking at that province for more than 1 turn.

Of the two I'm inclined to think that it's tha latter but I'm the n00b kid on the block around here, and this game never ceases to amaze me.

[Quokka]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Jan. 09 2004,23:05)]What exactly is the AI's criteria for selecting which general gets a title?
There are two criteria, Acumen and Command Stars. The province governerships that have command stars attached to their titles are given to generals with the highest command rating regardless of Acumen.
For the other provinces the titles are given to the general with the highest Acumen rating. This also includes those titles from the unique palaces, ie Marshalls Palace etc. These titles are also given to the highest Acumen untitled general. This is why you will often see an AI general as Patriarch of Constantinople with no governorship titles. The palace titles that have command stars are given in the same way as province titles and so more often will stack with a governorship.

This is the major reason why you should never let the AI Auto assign titles, they will go all over the place, more often than not in the exact opposite direction than they should have.

[Contra]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Jan. 09 2004,10:44)]say you have two units in the stack and both are depleted, one is a new unit with 0 valour and another is a vetran unit with 3 valour.
***
you then send this unit with valour 2 back into battle to gain more glory, and hopefully more valour.

No. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif You have Old (veteran) unit, with say valour 4, and brand New (just trained) unit with 0. You drag soldiers from the New, and fill in the Old to the maximum (I understand that valour will be reduced). In this case you simply added new soldiers to the Old.
Now, (not sending anybody to fight yet, and not clicking End Year) you take soldiers from the Old and give them back to the New. Will the veterans also go to the new??
I just wanted to know whether it is possible to distribute veterans between 2 units. If it's possible you would be able (in the end of this operation) to have 2 units with valour 2.

I think that all veterans will stay in the Old unit, not sharing valour with New. But I just wanted to see what other people think. Sorry for confusion. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]I just wanted to know whether it is possible to distribute veterans between 2 units. If it's possible you would be able (in the end of this operation) to have 2 units with valour 2.

I think that all veterans will stay in the Old unit, not sharing valour with New. But I just wanted to see what other people think. Sorry for confusion.

if you mean mixing two full strength units, one at 4, the other at 0, i don`t think that is possible.

is that what you were thinking of?


if you used two depleted units, and if the number of men in the old unit is great enough you might get one full unit at valour 2, and a remaining understrength unit at valour 2.

[Contra]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Jan. 09 2004,14:22)]if you mean mixing two full strength units, one at 4, the other at 0, i don`t think that is possible.
I mean when your high valour Old unit is 70-90% full.

[Doug-Thompson]

I wish you could merge high-valor units with other units, but you can't.

The same stack often contains units of exactly the same type but with widely different valor levels, so thety can't be merged.

So I send units back to be retrained IF they don't have to go far by land or if naval transport is available. One of the real advantages of sea control is the ability to send units to any province necessary for retraining.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]I mean when your high valour Old unit is 70-90% full.

in that case you would have to drag your vetran unit over your novice unit, that should increase the valour of the novice unit to at least 1, if not 2.

if you drag your novice unit over the vetran one, you lower it`s valour, and it doesn`t help the valour of the novice unit.

try it out by doing a ctrl-s and then merging your units and seeing the effects, if it doesn`t work out how you want, press ctrl-l and try again.

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