Mongols: Defense Mix

[Gauthijm]

As the subject line asks, I hold Khazar/Kiev/Georgia as the Almohads right now, and it is 1170.

I am the strongest military and economic power in the world right now, but I know the horde is coming in 1230 right ?

I have 60 years to prepare

As the Almohads, what is the force "stacks" I should build ?

I Have Khazar heavy cavalry bowmen, Armour +1 now

I have Armenian Heavy cavalry as well

All standard units, incl Ghazi, Arab Infantry (I have VI), Urban Militia, Ghulams, and I have just captured Genoa, so I might have Genoese sailors soon (dunno about that one)
-----------------

What stacks should I build against these mongols ?

standard 960 man (or close), 16 unit stacks

** 4 Khazar Heavy Cavalry (Bowmen/Cav) (160)
** 2 Armenian Heavy Cavalry (80)
** 1 Ghulam cavalry (20)
** 7 Almohand Urban Militia (420)
** 2 Ghazis/or Arab Infantry (I have Constantinople, Armour +3 right now) (80)

16 Units Total, Numbers = 760 out of possible 960

If I replace the 2x Arab Infantry with 2x Spearmen, that jumps to a total of 880 out of 960 ... -80 + 200

Thx all for your help
Jean

[Cazbol]

Christ. Almohads against the Mongols. This could get ugly. I would suggest you retreat to Kiev so you can defend at the bridges. As for units, get any halberdiers you can find in the inns. Otherwise, rely on spear units and look for a good general to improve their valour. Use these spear units to defend your arbalesters. A few non-Almohad heavy cavalry units for support would also be nice if you can find them.

Good luck to you and may whatever gods you believe in have mercy on your soul. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[fruitfly]

The Almohads have just about the worst range of units for trying to fight the horde with in my opinion.

In Khazar, your best bet is to try and build up to fortress level and let the defences take care of most of the Mongols when they inevitably try and storm it (you'll probably take a lot more casualties if you command the defence yourself). 60 years may be enough time to manage that as long as you've got a keep there already. Either that or retreat to Kiev and defend the bridge with as many archers/arbs as possible like Cazbol suggested.

Alternatively you could try and wipe everyone else off the map before 1230. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Fighting a pitched battle in Khazar won't be much fun and you'll find AUM to be pretty ineffective against the Mongol cavalry. However if you do decide to take them on, hide in the trees as much as possible and try to make use of any mercenaries you can get hold of. Faris will do a good job of taking out the Mongol warriors, naptha throwers etc. as the AI will try to skirmish them away making them fairly easy to run down and rout (especially if you manage to kill their general early on).

If I fight the horde when they appear, it's usually as the Turks (who have the edge thanks to JHI) and I'll often have the first 10-15 units of reinforcements as archers since running out of arrows against the Mongol horse archers seems to be the biggest problem I've encountered.

[Hetman_Koronny]

*bows*

My humble opinion....

You'll loose unless you strengthen your army with at least 4 units of spear units (but not spearmen as they suck). In worst case you can use Negro spearmen (Almos have them, don't they?) but look for better ones.

Build a few inns nearby. Check them frequently and hire:
- lots of Arbalester units (you won't get them before High Era in 1205 I think)
- Halberdiers, if you can get them (they will get bonus fighting the Horde but be aware of their week morale, never ever
- again: spears - perhaps Feudal/Chivalric Sergants, I've seen them appearing in inns.

You will not defeat the Horde with your cavalry. They have better armour and superior numbers so they will beat your guys. You need infantry AND a good general as the Khan may be a 7 stars one.

You will need fast cavalry to chase the Mongol archers. A couple of Steppe Cav units will do.

Your militia and ghazis will be fine AS LONG AS they don't face the Horde Cavs. Use them for flanking or in woods only. Other wise the Horde will ride over them WITHOUT even noticing.

To sum up I would face the first wave with:
6 spear units (and maybe 1-2 halbs)
4 arbs/crossbows
3 ghazi/UM
1 GH - your high star general
2 Steppe Cav to chase enemy routers (but be really cautious here&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Good luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

*bows*

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Don't worry. With the Almohads it's harder, but possible.



Quote[/b] ]I have 60 years to prepare
Good. Plenty of time.



Quote[/b] ]Khazar heavy cavalry bowmen
It's not Khazar heavy cavalry bowmen. It's Steppe Heavy Cavalary.



Quote[/b] ]As the Almohads, what is the force "stacks" I should build ?
My tactical advise is to keep your army inside a forest. Try to keep it the furthest back possible in the map. If possible, in one of the back corners.

IMHO, with any faction, the right strategy for defending Khazar against the Mongols, consists on choosing the best Anti-Cav units possible.

As the Almohads, try to get a couple of good armoured merc spear units (Rus Spearmen, Armoured Spearmen, Italian Infantry, Chivalric Sargents and Saracen Infantry) and, if possible, Halbardiers. This will reinforce your Muwahid Foot Soldiers and support your AUM. If possible keep 2-3 fast cav units, like Faris, Ghulam Cavalary or Armenian Heavy Cavalary in the back of your army to chase routers. Your Steppe Heavy Cavalary is good too. Hire, if possible, Alan Mercenary Cavalary, they are superb. Steppe Cavalary is a very low morale unit and I rarely use them. I never use missile units in this Khazar defense. Some other people use them, but I don't. Matter of personal taste.


First rule of engagement: BE PACIENT

If you're not, the Mongols will teach you the meaning of humility.

You should always fight in the forest. Organise your army to protect the general and the cav from missile fire and MHC charges. Never leave the forest, let them come to you. If all enemy units rout, launch your cav to chase them or to brake other units that might have rallied.

Second rule of engagement: BE PACIENT

These battles are MASSIVE and take a whole lot of time.

Try to keep any depleted or wavering unit from the battlefield. Reinforce accordingly.

Do not, and I can't stress this enough, DO NOT EVER chase a Mongol army with infantry
Your men will tire, take heavy casualties and your whole army will be slaughtered

Third rule of engagement: BE PACIENT

Army composition (aproximate):

-3 MFS
-3 armoured merc spear units
-3 Halbardiers or Ghazi Infantry
-3 AUM
-3 Fast Cav
-1 General unit

Good luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Degtyarev14.5]

Aymar,

With all due respect, the word is patient.

I mean no offence... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

A.

[Orda Khan]

.........Dead Almos everywhere

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

.......Orda

[Hurin_Rules]

I go the missile route. Pavise Arbalesters up front, maybe a longbow or two behind them, then spears as the main line. On the flanks, I'd use Ghazis and some good cavalry (Alan Mercs, Ghulams, etc.) for chasing down broken units.

I know some people go the infantry route, and more power to them, but I personally have never had much success with it. The problem with going the infantry route is that if you can't find much forest cover, or sometimes even if you can, the GH infantry can decimate your forces with archery fire. The Pavise Arbalesters reverse this situation; with several of them, time is now your ally. You can sit back and wait as your arbalesters decimate the GH cavalry. When they charge in, you meet the cavalry with your spears and flank them with Ghazis, then chase them down with cavalry. But again, don't pursue too far-- when facing the GH there are always multiple waves of troops.

[Gauthijm]

Impressive advice...

Wow people, that is great

So I guess as the Almos it will be really tough huh ?


If I just want to build up my fort to a fortress, and kill as many Mongols as possible with

** Level 5 Fort (Fortress) + Additional Curtain Wall or whatever.
** 960 men inside or as close as possible
** No men outside in Khazar anyway....

What is the mix I need ?

I had great advice in the outside battles, but I am not a good enough tactical strategist not to get killed by the Golden Horde outside.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

So my plan, with your help would be

1- Inside defensive Battle in Fortress in Khazar, lose probably all 960 defenders...

2- Outside defensive battle in Kiev behind river with halberdiers (if possible) and tons of Archers right ?

3- Inside defensive battle in Kiev (and maybe bulgaria as well) again inside fortress with maximum possible fortresses in those areas as well.

Hopefully by then, even if pitiful are my skills, I should have whittled down those 21,000 maniacs coming from the steppe right ?

Any ideas on my

1- Plan
2- Force composition for those INSIDE the Fortress Defensive Battles ?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Thx a million everyone
Jean

[Cheetah]

Hello Gauthijm http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

First, I would stack up those steppe heavies, IMHO they are amongst the best cavs in the game. Good horse archers with solid H2H abilities.

Second, as advised by others try to hire as many good spear/halberd units as much you can. That is, italians, saracens, chiv.sergst, billmen or JHI (if you can).

Third, I would use archers and arbs, an arrow is always faster than a mongol heavy cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

For this reason I would just stay in front of the forest, lining up the ranged units as close to the forest as possible, and hiding all the rest in the forest.

With this strategy in mind I would use 2 or 3 steppe heavies, 7 or 8 spearmen/halbs, 4 pavis unit and 2 archer (could be vanilla archers but if you have genoese or even desert archers that is fine).

Now, having a good reserve is at least as important. You will need a good number of archers (and some pavis) to replace out of ammo troops, and of course a healty number of steppe hevies and spearmen/halbs to replace combat loses. You could put a few steppe cavs into the reserves as well. These are fast cavs but somewhat weak in combat so I would use them only for chasing down routed troops (which implies that you need them only in the later stages of the battle). So have at least 2 or 4 pavis, 4 or 6 archer, 6 or 8 steppe heavy, 4 steppe cavs and as much spear/halbs as you can get in reserve. Put 3 or 4 archers on the top of the reserve stack you will need them first, put some spears and steppe heavies next to them. then put archers/spears/steppe heavies alternating, finally put the vanille steppe cavs close to the bottom of your reserves. Of course if you dont have that much steppe heavis than you can use ghulams, or armenian heavis instead of them. Also, alans are good fast cavs good for the same role as vanilla steppe cavs. If you have AUMs, ghazi, dont leave them home but I would put them to the bottom of my reserve stack.

Very important: bring a GOOD GENERAL As Almo you should have good generals, bring a 7 or 8 star one with as much good virtues as he has.

As the others stated be patient and DO NOT chase routed units Keep your army together, this is utterly important Use only the vanilla steppe cavs to chase down routed units.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Aymar,

With all due respect, the word is patient.

I mean no offence...
None taken http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I sometimes mix up some words within the English language, since it's not my birth one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif




Quote[/b] ].........Dead Almos everywhere

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

.......Orda
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Not with everyone's tips... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Degtyarev14.5]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 09 2004,01:56)]I sometimes mix up some words within the English language, since it's not my birth one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
That is what I had figured. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

However, your English is actually very good. It was only that one word that stood out as http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif .

If I may ask, just out of curiosity, what is your primary language?

A.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]If I may ask, just out of curiosity, what is your primary language?
By all means, you may http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And I will answer.

It's Portuguese.

Patient (English) = Paciente (Portuguese)

Therefore, the confusion earlier on. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Ironside]

Also considering that you got Genoa, try to take Switzerland to get Swiss halbs, an exellent anti-cav unit (weak to arrows though).

[Gauthijm]

It is now 1204, and I did not capture Switzerland yet..

SInce it has gone back and forth for a while, they're are no structures in it, so it will take along time to build up right ?

Probably too late by now if I do not have it...

Should I raze most structures in Khazar (apart from fortress) to make sure the Golden Horde does not get armour/weapon upgrades ?

Did someone say that Khazar Heavy cavalry is some of the best cav of the game , i.e. missile troop with decent Hand-to-Hand ?

Are Faris and Ghulam cavalry with weapon (+0 to +1 now) /armour upgrades (like +3) able to stand up to the horde ?

I also have Armenian Heavy Cavalry with +2 armour as well.

Note: I will follow everyone's advice and since I have 450,000 in my treasury, I will buy as many
1- Armoured Spearmen or same such troops as I can
2- Crossbowmen/pavise if I can, have not seen them yet...
3- Any other high-level troops like Halberdiers (have not seen any yet though) I can get my hands on.

Should I take on the horde in Khazar with an outside army, and then retreat to the castle when I inevitably lose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
or Just put the max in the Level 5 fortress in troops and kill as many as I can... ?

I was thinking, please correct me if I am wrong:

1- Khazar: Fortress defensive assault fight, kill as many and lose all castle inhabitants.
Send 20 assassins (level 1 to 2) against the Khan
Send 20 Diplomats to try to get alliance with Khan

2- Kiev outside bridge battle, along with the other river (Volga-something?) territory NE of Kiev, with another defensive army across a bridge.

3- defend Lithuania and hope they go for Hungary or
Lose Lithuania and they go for cetral europe.

4- defend the Crimea which will also have a level 5 fortress (I hope) and hope the Mongols attack/assault the castle.
I have Sea Superiority, so I can land reinforcements at will, if I have the troops....

5- defend Georgia with tons of lower quality but hordes of troops
BTW, georgia will be a Level 5 fortress as well, but not with maximum additional features like extra walls/ gatehouse & towers; did not have the time...

What do you think, and can I stop them ?


This is a GREAT Game
take care
Jean

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Gauthijm, it's not Khazar heavy cavalry. It's Steppe Heavy Cavalary. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

You're mixing up the units:

Khazar Royal Cavalry is a specific Rebel unit that exists in Early, only in Khazar. It cannot be trained or hired, only bribed.

Steppe Heavy Cavalry (the one you have) is trainable, by all factions, in several regions (Khazar, Volga-Bulgaria, Rhyazan, etc...).

[Gauthijm]

Absolutely right

My mistake..

Great unit, unless I miss my guess though...

now that si out of the way, what about those questions eh ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Take care
Jean

[fruitfly]

The horde will definitely appear in Khazar. Possibly in Georgia, Armenia and/or Volga-Bulgaria too. I've seen them in all of those provinces in the past, never in all four at once and always in Khazar.

I'd command a fortress defence personally in Khazar and not bother fighting them on the battlefield there. That's partly because it'll take about four hours non-stop playing (much longer if you pause to dish out orders to your units) to win the battle. In addition to that, the size of the horde seems to depend on the number of troops you've got stationed in the provinces where they appear (and on the difficulty level), so by having just a fortress garrison you may end up with fewer Mongols to smite (no need for reinforcements).

The best troops to stick in the fortress are infantry (a mix of swords and spears), plus a couple of units of cavalry to use on a suicide mission to take out the Mongol siege weapons before they can inflict much damage. Your main aim with the infantry is to slow down the attackers as much as possible so that the fortress defences have plenty of time to kill them. Armoured spearmen or similar will do a good job of holding a breached gate and trapping the attackers on the wrong side, while swordsmen such as AUM will be handy for killing enemy infantry.

If you see any, get a mercenary organ gun crew too. They've got a very short range, but if you set them up facing your gatehouse, they can kill many, many men trying to break through on the other side. They're also handy to have when fighting bridge battles as long as you don't mind a few friendly-fire casualties.

Khazar's the main battle and the most important to win as if you kill the Khan the rest of the Mongols will turn to rebels ripe for bribing. That's another place your 20 emissaries will come in handy (it's best to target 2-3 per stack and clear out one province at a time otherwise you waste men fighting the unbribed ones).

In my experience they won't move on from the provinces they appear in until those are conquered so if you retreat to your fortresses on the first turn and fight defences on the second when the AI decides to storm due to massively superior numbers, they shouldn't spread any further.

As far as destroying buildings/upgrades goes, the Mongols will get whatever armour/valour/(morale?) upgrades your buildings in the province where they appear provide. It's up to you to weigh up whether it's worth the years and florins it will take to replace those buildings to get a slightly weaker horde as a result. I don't think I'd bother myself.

[Gauthijm]

I love you guys (and gals, like frogbeastegg..)

Thx a lot Fruitfly, you advice was wonderful..

I will put maximum trrops in Khazar fortress, and DESTROY all morale/armour upgrades when they show...

Being a marginal player, I need all the help I can get.

If I have 4 Catapults inside the fortress, is that enough to destroy the AI's siege engines, or do I really need 2-4 fast cavalry units to destroy the AI's siege weapons ?

If a Fortress can hold 960 troops, how about this composition:

a) 4x Armoured Spearmen/Italian Infantry or equivalent mercenaries, anti-cav units...
400 men total

b) 4x Desert/Normal Archers or Crossbow/Arbalests, if I can hire them as mercenaries as missile troops.
I will take 240 Archers with +1 or +2 weapon upgrades/ and +3 Armour upgrades OR
4x Crossbows/Arbalest/Pavise as Mercenaries, if they are offered.
240 men total

c) Swordsmen or equivalent units
Again, I can produce as Almohad , 4x Units of Almo Urban Militia, with +3 Armour/ and +2 Weapons, which I can use againts enemy infantry right ?
I could buy the best swordsmen mercenaries but will they be as good in 1205-1228 or so as my guys shown here as AUM with +3 Def/+2 weapons ?
240 men total

d) 4x Catapults with +3 Armour/+2 Weapons
40 men total

Total 16 units, or I remove 2 units and take 2 Khazar heavy Cavalry as sacrificial guys to destroy the AI's siege weapons. I would prefer using my 4 catapults to destroy his weapons, and therefore not sacrifice any units, but whatever works..

Final question, how does the burning oil thing work, as I have never run a Castle defense/assault before, having always used the auto-resolve for that phase of the game..
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

Thx a miilion
Jean

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]now that si out of the way, what about those questions eh ?
Just pick one of the strategies above and stick to it. Or else, you could try to pick parts of each one that can suit your style of play better... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[LordKhaine]

You wont hold them like that (unless you have a crazy strong army), you'll have to fall back slowly fighting them for every inch. Eventually they should run out of steam, all the time you can be making re-enforcements to keep the fight up. Expect to lose a fair bit of land to the horde, but remember that time is your ally. You have a large income and stash of money, and lands pumping out units. It's important to keep allied with the other factions so you can use all your troops fighting the horde.

As for the battles.... I personally like sticking to a hill and surrounding it in spears, and placing missles inside. Place your army at the edge of the map so any re-enforcements you have will appear right in the middle of your defensive square. Before I've held off a huge army of mongols simply by making a circle of spears inside a forest and just holding them off for the time limit. Their archers will hurt you badly so either be in a forest or pack enough missle troops to counter attack. If you go with the latter be sure to remember ammo stocks.

Good luck ;)

[Brutal DLX]

Hm, there is already great advice in the previous posts, but I'll give my opinion too..

First, you have to ask yourself whether or not you want to fight the huge battle when the Horde emerges. If so, you are right to amass lots of troops in Khazar under a good general.
But you could also retreat from Khazar, completely tear down any structures you have built and let the Mongols spread out and defeat them one army at a time. This will take longer, but time will work for you as they won't be able to replace their deadly Heavy Cavalry anywhere so their combat power goes down after each battle, won or lost, while you can always retrain your units.
As for army buildups, I wouldn't rely on mercenaries other than to bolster your ranks if you want to fight the emergence battle, if not, my advice for your basic stack would be to not take any heavy infantry such as Almohad Urban militia, but rather build spearmen (Nubians and Muhawid), but see to it that they receive the best armour upgrade you can get at that time, also a morale boost from mosques etc would be a good idea. Those spearmen will be your primary shield and will receive most of the damage either by arrows or by the cavalry charge. Now, take about 6 spears, add at least 4 missile weapons, preferrably pavise crossbows or arbalesters (if you can build them already....) and fill the rest with the best cavalry you can find (Ghulams, Armenians, Faris if you still have some left).
The battle tactic is to engage in a missile shootout with them, as this is one they will surely lose because you just have more ammunition than them. Try to deplete their horse archers first, then focus fire on the heavy cavalry whenever they come in range. If you ran out of ammo and they still haven't engaged you, retreat your missile troops and bring on more spears.
Once they charge you, prevent any flanking by using your own cavalry, try to get one or two units in the rear of their battleline and charge in. Constantly support your fightign troops with missile fire and chase any Mongol warriors unit that is still giving fire support with your cavalry. You should be able to win, but even if you lose, concentrate on taking out as many of the heavy cavs as you can.
Ideally, you would want to set up on the border of a forest, with your missile troops just on the edge and the spears closely behind them, so their accuracy doesn't suffer but they are still partially protected from return fire.
If for soem reason, you are losing more men to their arrow fire than you kill, it can be a good idea to start moving toward their lines, it is risky, but you may be able to engage the heavy cavalry with your spears, but at all time, make sure every unit stay in your line of battle and don't allow your formation to be disrupted. If you do it correctly, you can push them into a corner where they have to fight. You might not win this one, but again, you can take down a lot of their heavy stuff. Lose the battle but win the war by attrition.
One last bit, if you manage to kill their Khan early on, chances are he has no heirs and the whole Horde goes rebel, which will simplify your battles a lot. :D

[fruitfly]

One thing I would add about fighting a pitched battle against the horde:

The last time I faced them, I knew that I needed to save my arrows for the waves of horse archers as it's far too much trouble trying to engage them any other way due to their speed and the sheer number of them. The Mongols started marching their heavy cavalry up and down in front of my wall of spears presumably trying to get my archers to waste ammunition on them, but fortunately I'd switched off fire at will and skirmish for all of them so that I could pick their targets myself.

The armour that the MHC have makes it quite an expensive exercise to try and kill them with normal archers, whereas the horse archers are much easier to kill that way. I've found it best to let your spearmen take care of the heavy cavalry (assuming you've got no polearm troops available).

Gauthijm - if you're going to put archers in your fortress, I wouldn't bother with crossbows/arbalests - they'd be best saved for a bridge battle in Kiev as their flat angle of fire means they're unlikely to be able to shoot over the castle walls at the enemy troops (I haven't tried it myself, but I'd expect that to be the case). As for the question about using cavalry or catapults to take out their siege weapons, the Mongols tend to have mortars when I've fought them (early gunpowder weapons). I'm not sure if they'd have the range advantage on your catapults or not so I'd be tempted to rely on cavalry to dispose of them instead (targeting the weapons rather than the men operating them is probably the best option). If you come across any, mercenary halberdiers would be a useful unit to have as they get a bonus attacking armoured troops and cavalry meaning that any MHC who try to charge you will pay dearly.

Boiling oil works automatically (I think Giljay posted something about it in a thread a while back). The gatehouse has four "shots" and it takes about 30 seconds to reload before firing again. You can't control when it fires though - it'll only do it when the gatehouse itself is under attack.

One last thing: if you're going to destroy your buildings, make sure you do it the turn before the Mongols appear (1229). If you wait then they'll have the troop improvements and you'll lose the structures.

==========

On a slight tangent, has anyone ever fought the Mongols as the Egyptians in a cavalry battle? I was just wondering how Mamluk cavalry would fare against the MHC with their AP bonus.

[Gauthijm]

Wow

Great advice people

It is now 1210 and time is marching on...

1- I will take out my new Pavise X-Bows out of Khazar fortress and put them in Kiev then, as a bridge battle...

2- Same as that other territory NE of Kiev, which is also a river territory

3- Spearmen/Halberdiers(if I can hire them...) and maybe some AUM will go in the castle...

4- I will dump 30+ assassins against the Khan on the 1st turn...

5- I will build up a huge army in Kiev, best I can field, along with Volga something (river) and the Crimea as well...

6- I will try to do same with Georgia, to prevent him rampaging in my lrich ands....

7- I am NOT allied with anyone right now, I am so strong the AI dropped me when the Italians attacked me....
SO I have a 10 stacks () bunch of english units in aquitaine just ready to bounce on me when they want...
Maybe I should destroy the english before the horde arrives, a pre-emptive strike...

8- I have 550,000 ducats right now, and a profit (when at peace, as I am right now) of +15-20k/per tuen

9- I have tons of Level 4 Castles in my territories, but not so much in the way of other development yet...

10- My spanish areas are now building +2 Weapons or +3 armour right now, so I will have that by 1230 in all my iron producing areas (aprt from Tuscany that is, recent conquest)...

11- By 1230, I should have several producing Pavise Crossbows, Faris Horse Archers, Armenian Heavy cavalry, (I will lose my Khazar Heavy cavalry though...), AUM (whoopie), Ghulam Cavalry and Bodyguards
I know, not very strong unit selection, but it will have to do...

The Almohads are strong at beginning , but so baaaaaad even in middle period of the game...
Hell, I think they are worse than the Byzantines as these guys at leats have 2 of the 3 periods covered...

I have a reserve of about 40+ Khazar Heavy Cavalry (horse archers/swordsmen with +2 armour) but by 1230 I will not be able to produce anymore of those.. (Mongols you know...)


Question: On the bridge battle at Kiev, how should I deploy my troops at the 2 bridges....
Spearmen/AUM at the entrance of bridge and Pavise X-Bows behind them ?
Should I let a unit of the enemy get off the bridge and then surround them and smash them ?
Since someone said that pavise X-Bows are flat trajectory, will I be able to fire into that emerging unit OR can I fire across the river to the units behind that frontrunning unit ?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif

Well that is it for now, great info as always , thanks

Thx a lot
Jean

[Brutal DLX]

For bridge battles, deploy your best defensive units (spears, halberdiers etc) in rows of three in successive fashion. Usually when there are two bridges, you only need to guard the one closest to you, the AI will seldom attack the other one, but you might want to put a spear and missile unit nearby, so they can react and hold the line until you shift more forces.
Now, the Mongols will approach the bridge and quickly try to cross it. Order your first 3 unit row to advance toward the bridge and set up is a small half-circle around the bridgehead, so there is no way for them to break through.
Put them on hold formation and hold position.

Your missile units should be deployed on the left and right flanks at the edge of the river, so they have a clear arc of fire on the bridge. Try to target units that are standing on or trying to cross the bridge, rather than fire into the melee, that may result in too many friendly casualties. What follows is just a long, long melee, you may use one of your missile units to fire solely on the general should he cross the bridge.
If you see one of your units being depleted to half strenght, immediately send a reserve unit to that spot, and retreat the depleated unit only after the new one is in place. Similar action to take if you see some Mongols getting somehow past your protective wall.
The longer you hold, the better the chance of a Mongol unit routing, which may cause a general rout. Now is the time to order a swift cavalry unit to attack and pursue them. Kill as many as you can before they rally, then run back and repeat the process.
Even if you should lose in the end, you can be sure that they have won a pyrrhic victory only.

Oh, I advise against using AUM at first, as the first wave will likely be cavalry heavy, and they will kill your AUMs easily. Save them for when their infantry charges into melee.

[econ21]

Brutal_DLX has interesting advice on bridge battles - I just hold the mouth of the bridge with spears and shoot behind. Letting Mongol Heavy Cavalry get across and into the open is potentially dangerous against light Almo spears. There are severe penalties for fighting in a confined space and I believe folk on a bridge get those, whereas your men on the mouth of it don't. However, I know Brutal_DLX is very experienced and his method may be best. By mine, you will lose some men to enemy fire and general attrition but I am afraid the life of an Almo spearman against the Mongols is short anyway, so you have to stock up. Halberdiers and other heavy western merc units are infinitely better against Mongol heavy cav than Nubians/Muwahid/AUM.

On another point, one thing I learnt playing Almo against the Mongols in PBM was the importance of numbers. As Brutal_DLX says, in open campaign (ie if you do not try to hold the line at Khazar or Kiev) the Mongols sooner or later start to run out of heavy cav, but you can keep pumping out arbalesters and spears. I often won battles with reinforcements, after my deployed troops died hard killing heavy cav. Plan on fighting multi-part battles - eg keep your general from routing, buy time and space for reinforcements, have lots of heavy stuff in the reinforcements as well as fresh missiles.

Lastly, I am a great fan of arbalesters. These guys can really hurt the Mongols. They have great range, kill Mongol heavy cav with ease and can easily win duels with Mongol horse archers. I would not go for pavises - they are too slow and the Mongols are pretty nippy, in open battles I found they were constantly maneouvring in the face of my spear and arb line. The only problem with arbs is protecting them.

You can see some of my learning experiences against the Mongols in the PBM forum on the non-VI Almohad campaign at:
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;st=200 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=25;t=9507;st=200)

[Brutal DLX]

Yes, Simon, I usually also hold the bridge with only one unit when fighting smaller armies.
However, there will be a pushback even on hold hold when the extremely strong Mongol heavy Cav attacks, and all of a sudden you can find that some riders may manage to squeeze through or around your holding unit which can quickly end in a catastrophic rout.
In most important big bridge battles, it's imperative to not let them get past your defense and possibly attacking your missile troops. This can be better prevented by having two additional units on the flanks as narrow as possible, so the massed unit penalty for the Mongols still applies at the mouth of the bridge. Then have a second ring stand ready to deal with stray fighters. If you shoot in the melee when the battle is on the line and your troops are already depleted, you risk triggering a rout.

And yes, if you can find good mercenary units with high base morale and upgrades, by all means take them, but if Gauthjim can pump out spears with morale boost and level 2 or 3 armour and weapons, they are often superior to a vanilla mercenary unit. Of course, the general plays a big role, as always.

[Cheetah]

check out this thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=11389) for bridge battles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Gauthijm]

Thx a lot for the advice...

I will definitively try it...

Now that it is 1212, I am trying to hire mercenaries and of course, now, none are to be had of any quality http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

I will probably build Nubian Spearmen then with +2 or so Armour, and Pavise X-Bows/Crossbows and Archers with +2 to Weapons and +3 to Armour.

Most of my Iron provinces are in Iberia (all except Tuscany) and the unit selection there is piss poor, unless we are talking about Faris HorseBowmen or Ghulam Cav (+2 to Weapons and +3 to Armour).

I will try the excellent advice here and try to bleed the Mongols with as many units I can in Khazar (fortress battle), Kiev (Bridge crossing) and Volga-something (bridge as well) and Crimea (standard battle, might go fortress here as well, but can easily reinforce due to "ship-chain through whole empire") as I can...

Question: Have we decided what is best , a semi-circle of 3 Nubian spearmen at the entrance to bridge, and let the Mongol unit half-emerge from the bridge, and hit them from all sides, while pelting with archers the unit BEHIND the 1st one
OR
1 Nubian Spearmen at the entrance of bridge, never allowing the mongol unit to even emerge from the bridge ?

Question: Are Catapults useful as well, to hit the BEHIND units or am I better with another 40 man Faris/Steppe heavy Cavalry OR Desert Archer (+2Wpn/+3 Armour) of 60 men.

Question: I suppose once the Archer units in the first 16 are out of arrows, you CTRL-W (Withdraw) them from battle and bring a reinforcement up ?

Thx a miilion, I am learning a lot from you guys and gals...

Jean

[fruitfly]

Catapults are excellent units to use when defending bridges. You'll kill lots and lots of enemy troops that way. One catapult unit will definitely kill more men than a mounted archer unit and artillery fire inflicts a bigger morale penalty on the enemy troops too. I'd generally take 2-3 catapults with me so that I can have one firing on the bridge for the whole battle.

The most important thing to remember is that troops on the bridge are sitting ducks for artillery and archers and that's where you'll do most of the killing. The bridgehead and blocking approach are simply two different strategies for trapping as many of the enemy on the bridge as possible meaning that they have to fight with the combat penalties for being in a confined space. I'd strongly advise against pursuing the enemy troops onto the bridge itself as then your units will suffer the same penalties and be equally vulnerable to both enemy and friendly fire.

There's a lot of good advice on both approaches to defending a bridge in the thread that Cheetah linked to. Having your spearmen set to hold position and withdrawing archers who are out of ammunition to bring on fresh ones are a must.

Personally I think it's easier to block the enemy from coming off the bridge rather than try to contain them in a bridgehead, because you've only got one unit to keep an eye on and replace once it starts to take casualties or get fatigued. However the bridgehead approach does have the advantage that you can flank the enemy as well as fighting them in a confined space, which will make routing them a quicker job. If you can manage that one well then it's probably more effective overall.

[Brutal DLX]

About siege weapons.. It depends on the map and their valour, low valour siege weapons may miss the bridge altogether or even hit your own blocking unit(s). It can inflict huge damages if you score direct hits, but it's still a bit risky. You could try it, and if you are not satisfied with the results, just withdraw the unit and bring on another one.
Also, only pursue the units over the bridge if they are in a full rout, and only use one unit of cavalry or fast infantry, which are expendable if they should run into trouble.
Furthermore, be sure to not overlook the morale of your holding units, not only place the best armoured but also the ones with the best morale there, as they will suffer a lot of abuse when fighting such a horde.

Lastly, you may get a surprise in fighting not on a bridge map on Kiev and other locations sometimes. I don't know if there is a pattern or if it is completely random, but don't bank on the battle being a bridge one, rather be prepared for anything.

[Ja'chyra]

When I'm fighting a bridge battle I try to get the bridge full of mostly enemy troops, that way you can keep pumping the crossbow bolts into their flanks.

I also rotate my troops that are physically holding the bridge, you might lose one or two when you withdraw but it's better than them routing due to fatigue. I find horse archers to be mostly useless until you break the enemy and you chase them off the field, so I usually bring them on as reinforcements and use archer units and preferably pavise in the beginning, remember to withdraw them when out of ammo and bring on fresh.

I use arty as well as you can really slaughter the enemy with them all bunched up at the entrance of the bridge, but as Brutal says, watch out for friendly fire:happy:

Anyway best of luck and remember to leave lots of time to finish the battle, they can drag on a bit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

[pdoan8]

In large bridge defense, I would completely seal off the bridge with one or two units and have the rest in reserve ready to relief the tired and depleted unit. Also, withdrawing and bringing in the reinforcement one at a time is better than with multiple units. The reinforcement get a chance to rest before their turn to fight. If I choose to seal off the bridge, I would use a strong defensive spear unit (prefer Italian Inf, Saracens, Chiv Sergeant) and use a sword, axe or polearm (Billmen, Militia Sergeant, Halberdier) to support it as needed. Have at least two more spears and one sword/axe/polearm as reserve near by. (Note: Sword refers to regular melee troops, axe refers to melee troops with AP weapon, polearm refers to troops with anti-cav weapon). Rotate these units if you can.

Missile: arb/xbow are the must. Pav types are even better. High killing power and superior range compare to MHA and MW. Pav types also have shield to boost up their defense against enemy arrow fire. Slow firing rate will keep them firing continuously for a long time and while you are replacing your depleted (ammo) archers. However, I wouldn't start with more than 2. Unless, I have height advantage. In static defensive mode like bridge battle, I would strongly against using HA when I have foot archers. Foot archers have more men and better accuracy. If I bring 3 or more archers in the first 16 units, I usually keep one in reserve (not firing or firing sparingly). This will give me a spare unit to use when I need to replace the depleted unit. Even though, this will reduce my total fire power, but durability is more important for me in a long battle. Javelin: if you don't mind the limited ammo and short range of javelin troops, take a couple to see how it works for you. The trick is: deploy them up close (right behind the spear), take them off skirmish mode (I prefer hold formation mode) and turn off the fire at will. They have short range, so deploying close in hold formation mode will keep them from turning away when the enemy just enter their firing range. Manual fire will help conserve their ammo and do the most damage when needed.

Artillery: since I restricted myself from using arty in the open field, the only two units that I can recommend are cataplt and organ gun.

Cavalry: minimal cav at the start of a bridge defense. Two would be more than enough for me. However, you should have some fast cav in reserve in case you want to cross the bridge and chase the enemy near the end.

So, the first 16 units would be:
- 4 spears. Deep formation (4-5 ranks).
- 3 sword/axe/polearm. Regular 4 ranks formation.
- 2 arb/xbow (prefer Pav). Prefer 2 ranks.
No proving fact, but I feel that firing at a slight angle (_/_ but not _|_) in stead of straight ahead would prevent the front row from blocking the back row.
- 4 archers. 2-3 ranks formation. Put them in hold formation if you deploy them too close to the bridge.
- The General
- 2 of whatever you want to try.

Arrange the reinforcement so most of the missiles and spears are at the top. For example: archer, (jav), archers, spear, archers, (jav), arb/xbow, sword/axe/polearm,... and the cav in the bottom. Take note of how you arrange your reinforcement as your may need to know which will come next when you have too many units in reserve. In case that you haven't noticed, you'll need VI patch to have the reinforcement arrive in proper order.

Deployment: already mentioned above and also in the link provided by Cheetah.

Castle Defense: I had only one chance to do this. I would suggest not to fill up the castle capacity. It will fall fast if the AI decides not to assault. IMO, the best 600-700 in a fortress would be more than enough. Minimal cav (it counted as 2) and archers (won't do much damage shooting over the wall). Jav troops probably the only useful missile when you need to plug a hole. Build upgrades and let the fortress do the damage itself. Occupy all outer sections. Stay away from the wall. Only seal it went it is breached.

IMO, the Mongol Hordes is the most exciting event in the game. 25-40,000 angry barbarians knocking at your door asking for a place to stay. Have fun.

[DeadRunner]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 09 2004,13:54)]
Quote[/b] ]If I may ask, just out of curiosity, what is your primary language?
By all means, you may :)

And I will answer.

It's Portuguese.

Patient (English) = Paciente (Portuguese)

Therefore, the confusion earlier on. :wave:
weeeeeeee
outro TUGA

[Hetman_Koronny]

*bows*

Been following this thread for a while (btw: it's very, very informative http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif) and I just can't wait till you post the battle report Gauthijm...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

*bows*

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]weeeeeeee
outro TUGA
Pois é http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif
Há por aqui uns quantos... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Gauthijm]

Thanks a lot for that note guy...

Yes, work is intruding lately, and the turns now are sooooo long, especially since by 1217 now the English (2nd Strongest empire) and the Sicilians (3rd strongest empire), both naval powers have now attacked me badly...

Now , all my plans of trying to build up for the mongols have me fighting a 3 front war, across the whole of europe, and provinces that were building troops are now building ships damn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

I am able to recruit 1/unit a turn of great Spear troops, and will use these as my 1st line of defense in Kiev/Khazar.

Something weird happened yesterday, as I usually NEVER get a faction re-emergence... But here is what happened...

I was attacked by Sicilian Navy Ships, and for 1 turn, they controlled Genoa(an) waters neard sardinia/corsica. I had had that province for a 20 year+ period, but LOYALTY in that province whent down to 50% at very low taxes (and 0% at Very High....)... My Garrison was small , as it was a 200% province loyalty at Very High..

Question: What happened ? I now have anothe faction at war with me, 7 stacks () although I destroyed the infrastructure of the province to nothing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad2.gif ... It was almost a fully developed Level 3 province....

Please let me know what happened here, I anm confused totally.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-huh2.gif

Back to my game....

All provinces now are building troops, (all of them), even with the Crappy selection the Almos have even with level 4 and 5 fortress/castles...

I am also losing 15-20K a turn now in expenses (where I used to make a +20K profit_) due to trading...

I have sunk a ton of English & Sicilian Ships, but ths survivors are concentrating and even when I have naval superiority, they are killing MORE of my ships even when I have baggalas (to their crappy level 1 christian ships) and more of them besides... I do not want to have to conquer all of the sicilian lands, and the english, as the damn Mongols are COMING.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-beam.gif

Very interesting now, maybe too much as a turn takes an eternity now...

As a related issue, I have 20+ Level 2 assasins in Khazar now, so I hope I can bump off the Khan when he shows up...

My Kiev forces have now about 5-6 stacks, with 1 or so high-quality mercenary joining up a turn, such as feudal sergents, Italian Infantry, and even 2x Engligs Longbowmen...

if the Hungarians and or Poles attack me at the same time, I am done for I think....they are the strongest land powers in the game having taken over all of Germany/Russia/Poland/ France they could... France is weak and the English are the most powerful with a 12 stack horde in that province close to navarre/Aragon on the left side... Gulp

I will let you know all if I lose it all soon...

Take care
jean

[DojoRat]

A big factor in province loyalty is it's proximity to the monarch. Islands under blockade are considered very far away (I don't know the specs)and their loyalty takes a heavy hit. Always keep a big, cheap garrison on them and keep your king off islands.

[Brutal DLX]

Wow, you are in dire straits. Definitely stop making 20k losses a turn. Improve your farmlands and mines as long as you still have cash if you haven't already done so.
If you are making such big losses, that suggests you have lots of troops, I suggest putting them to use now, and concentrating your efforts on eliminating a faction you are at war with.
Retreat all ships you have left and stack them, try to guard vital sea zones and go from there. If you see that you are losing the naval war, give up on building new ships, it's too expensive, rather focus on winning the land battles. To that end, it may be wise to retreat to choke points like Aragon/Navarre, Georgia and Constantinople, giving up provinces that stretch beyond that defensive line.
Disband mercenaries to reduce costs. Only hire them when you know you will be using them in battle within then next two or three turns. Release very depleted merc units after the battle.

[Gauthijm]

Thx for the advice

I am winning the sea war mostly now, but I still cannot nail 3 major concentrations of ships in the western approaches...

I have taken Venice now, and have a 8 stack of Sicilian troops (with their king) cornered above Milan/venice...

I am hoping that since the king is there, rebellions will start in the rest of the sicilian empire in the med since their king is OUT of COMMAND control of his empire (i.e. he is cut off...)

If not, I now outnumber him with about 12 stacks now in both of my adjacent territories, and might destroy him if a rebellion does not start...

At the very least, I will get ransom from him and may even be better to hit him after he has been ransomed, in his major territory

His major Shipbuilding territory, Sicily is probably next IF I can finally get Sea Control of the central Med; I have it, sorta, but his single ships often evade my 2 to 4 ships flottillas that are hunting him down, thereby disruption sea lanes of communications.

My Mongol Army build is now on hold, and it is 1218, as I am fighting the strongest 2 empires in the game, and trying to keep the peace with the remaining 2 other land powers, Polan and Hungary..

If I can destroy the enemy navies, and restore my trading empire, I will RAID enemy territories in england & sicily to destroy shipbuilding territories of the enemy.

If nopt, I will have to "use" up my extra troops in land offensives, and hope that I can slow down/stay out of the Mongols way, fighting only defensive battles that are necessary.

As for Sardinia (or it is Corsica), I still have no idea what happened, as I said... I lostsea control to that territory for 1 turn, as the sicilians DOW me... and my loyalty went from +200 to 0% in that turn, and I could not reinforce (see above for sea control..
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cool.gif

Oh well, I will keep everyone apprised of what happens, if there is still interest..

Take care
Jean

[Cheetah]

Sure, keep us updated.

Even better, could you post a screenshot of your empire?

[Gauthijm]

Sure

I'll hit F2 right ?

As for hosting the picture, can someone help me out here ?

Thx
Jean

[Cheetah]

Check out this thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=24;t=10398;st=0).

Formally this is for the Mead Hall and Story PBM, but since you are telling us a great story I think it is OK to use it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-beam.gif