Moving troops around causes rout?

[k1injuries]

When I battle I maneuver my troops back and forth a lot, especially when its battle where there are enough units to bring in reinforcements. I prefer to keep my units in formation and on a hill or forest so after a wave of enemy units I move my troops back into formation and onto a hill to wait for enemy reinforcements. However, sometimes when I move my units back, some of them rout. For example, I use my horse units to chase down routing enemies and after they pass a certain point I bring them back, lest they run into enemy reinforcements while chasing the routers down. All of a sudden they rout. What the hell? It says too many retreats but I was just returning them to their positions.

Another case would be when I would use my cavalry to bait the enemy troops. Wave after wave I would do this and then my unit would rout. Again it says.. too many retreats. I'm trying to use a legitimate tactic and my units rout? Am I doing something wrong?

Why exactly does this happen and how can I prevent it?

[makkyo]

That's very interesting. I had the same (if not similar) thing happen to me. I'm not quite sure how to get rid of that problem. Other than the minor detail of your army running away... that is an extremely effective tactic.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif When you select troops who have their flanks covered by more troops of your own, they recieve a small honor bonus (something about being glad that their flanks are protected). If a unit is all by itself engaged in battle, they may waver, and in your case run away. Try capturing routing units as one large body. You may not take out as many bad guys, but it would be a lot less likely that your men would run away.
I hope this helps you, k1injuries.

[Ludens]

Routing by moving around can have several causes.

1) Tiredness. Tired men have a lower morale. This is why you should rally troops at the earliest opportunity, before they become more tired from running and lose even more morale.

2) Turning your back on the enemy lowers morale (unless back is protected, in which case there is a bonus). Same goes for flank, but penalty is less if the flank is threatened. I think that is what Makkyo meant, but he wrote honour instead of morale.

3) The infamous Auto rout. The Too many retreats-message point to that. If a unit turns it back to enemies too often, it will rout regardless of morale. I do not know why this implemented. Perhaps to make it more difficult to skirmish the enemy to death.
I would very much like to know how this works exactly (turn back one specific unit or just turning in general, how often you have to turn for auto-rout, etcetera).

[BobTheTerrible]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I think the Auto-rout is for 2 things-

1, to make it hard for a weak horse archer unit to stand up to some infantry- Example: I have 50 militia against 10 horse archers at the end of the battle. The horse archers can simply turn around and waste the clock if they're the defenders. It can be a cheap tactic so they have to discourage it.

2, (an experience I myself had) to stop the constant abuse of the charge bonus. In a castle seige, I had a high-valour 1-man knight. The enemies would assault the 2nd gate, and I would hit the rear with my knight, then tie up the infantry with some of my own, and then pull my knight out and charge again. Even though he was in the castle he routed. That too is a cheap tactic so CA must discourage it by having auto-rout.

/ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Lord Rom]

Once your units morale goes to a certain low point, i think -13, it routes. Those bars that represent fatigue also can lower morale at certain levels. 3 gone say like 1 morale lost, 4(exhausted) lowers it quite a bit, along with making your attack number quite a bit lower also. Asking your unit to run while exhausted sometimes is enough to route.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Lord Rom @ Jan. 11 2004,04:20)]Once your units morale goes to a certain low point, i think -13, it routes. Those bars that represent fatigue also can lower morale at certain levels. 3 gone say like 1 morale lost, 4(exhausted) lowers it quite a bit, along with making your attack number quite a bit lower also. Asking your unit to run while exhausted sometimes is enough to route.
You can find the morale bonusses in the New, read this first topic, somewhere at the top of the entrance hal. Routing occured at -16 in MTW or -18 in VI, and the unit will continu to rout unit it reaches -6. Rallying adds +8 morale (non-additive, clicking the rally button multiple times won't help). If morale rises above -6, then it will stop routing. If not, it will continu running. Running exhaustes units, lowering their morale, and that is what makes it so hard to stop them.

I have stolen this information from Puzz3D http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[Oaty]

What is the morale penalty anyways of a constant retreat and how long does it last

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (oaty @ Jan. 11 2004,18:34)]What is the morale penalty anyways of a constant retreat and how long does it last
Again, you can find the morale bonusses and penalties in the New, read this first topic, somewhere at the top of the entrance hal. I don't think there is any morale penalty to a constant retreat. The men become tired however, and this makes them less likely to rally.

[motorhead]

I once had the same too many retreats message happen to a unit of valor 6 saharan cavalry. Tried to use them as bait to lure enemies across a bridge - after 5 or 6 times the whole untouched unit ran all the way off the map. I believe it is one of the undocumented morale penalties like dismayed by destruction of army which is NOT listed in any thread or FAQ or strat guide. [if it is truly listed somewhere, someone show me]

[Papewaio]

Autorout will be listed somewhere it has been known about since STW.

Essentially if you play kiss chasey around the map... you keep running away from the enemy and not engaging (running down the time for instance) there is a very nice feature that says 'Well you keep running, so rout then'.

Autorout cannot be recovered from. The unit will run and keep running until it is off the map. The unit will not regain morale.

It is aimed at stopping some dodgy things players do... at the expense of making some units less viable then they should be like horse archers.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ Jan. 12 2004,00:54)]Autorout cannot be recovered from. The unit will run and keep running until it is off the map. The unit will not regain morale.
Ah, so my attempts to rally daimyo sent across the bridge as bait, were in vain. Nice to know that.

But what are the rules behind auto-rout? How often or how long do I have to run away from enemies to make this happen? And is ther some way of recovering this (can I reduce the run-away counter)?

[altti]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Jan. 12 2004,08:17)]But what are the rules behind auto-rout? How often or how long do I have to run away from enemies to make this happen? And is ther some way of recovering this (can I reduce the run-away counter)?


Well that's an easy one general Ludens: Take your tail away between your legs, stop running and kick the hell out of your opponents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ Jan. 11 2004,18:54)]Autorout will be listed somewhere it has been known about since STW.
Still can't find any mention of it anywhere. Did a search here (autorout OR auto-rout) in every open forum from the beginning and only this thread shows up.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Jan. 12 2004,17:48)]Still can't find any mention of it anywhere. Did a search here (autorout OR auto-rout) in every open forum from the beginning and only this thread shows up.
The two discussions about cavalry archers (actually two times the same discussion. I think Cheetah made a mistake there) in the STW archive mention auto-rout, but without going into details.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Arrg I hate autorout I had it 4 times yesterday in MP games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif It tends to occur more often if your opponent is between you and your rout zone I believe.

[bighairyman]

use the withdrawl button( ctrl + w), and the unit will withdrwal, but then u could order it to stop and charge again. BtW, sometimes, when i know i will lose, i often use a infnatry unit to keep the enemy busy while i withdrawl the rest of my unit. does this give my general bad vices like good runner or something else. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[Lord Rom]

Been playing these games for a long time now...never seen that auto route message. Is it only on the unit if you hold your mouse on it? such as the losing badly? where does the message appear?

[motorhead]

Found as close to an official take on auto-rout (and dismayed by destruction of army) while looking at a completely different thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=7&t=8298) that meandered off:
longjohn2
Programmer
Group: CA
Posts: 263
Joined: Nov. 2000
UK
Posted: June 26 2003,17:02

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/snipped

The army destroyed penalty kicks in when most of an army's combat power has been eliminated. Again it's intent is to speed up the end of games by getting rid of small units that have rallied well away from the action, and would be a chore to hunt down.

The disheartened by constant retreat penalty is related to the Benny Hill detection code that routs your unit if you try to win a battle by running around avoiding combat until the timer runs out. As the retreat counter builds up you get a morale penalty that serves as a warning, and may if you're lucky tip your unit into a normal recoverable rout, rather than the unrecoverable Benny Hill penalty rout

/end

[Sun Tzui]

Basically what the game reflects (or so i think) is a basic morale rule: If your troops think you don't know what you are doing (i.e. giving them too many attack/fall back-therefore contradictive-orders) they will loose heart (and confidence)and run out on you. I never had this problem, and but I must agree it's sounds like a Bit*h http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif .

Try not using this tactic to excess, and allow them a breather between pursuits, I never use this tactic more than 3/4 times max, after wich I bring the unit to the rear or flank of my main army and allow them a breather... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cool.gif

[Ludens]

What I would very much like to know is if giving your troops a breather will reset said retreat counter or not. Would there be any way of testing this?

[Contra]

I think, one of the best ways to reset the penelty counter is to engage the enemy, but only together with another unit, and not from the front (or your penalized unit will rout after a 3-4 dead) drawing the second unit to rout too.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Contra @ Jan. 13 2004,22:26)]I think, one of the best ways to reset the penelty counter is to engage the enemy, but only together with another unit, and not from the front (or your penalized unit will rout after a 3-4 dead) drawing the second unit to rout too.
You mean that a unit with an almost full Retreat counter will have a lower morale?
I don't think so. The auto-retreats I experienced were always without warning (like a flashing white flag to indicate wavering-morale), indicating that their morale was unaffected until they auto-retreated.
Anyway, are you sure that fighting will reset the counter?

[Selborne]

Responding to the original post: it makes perfect sense to me. Suppose you are the captain of a loyal band of 40 Mounted Sergeants. You're feeling good in the company of 1400 of your brothers-in-arms. Then you get the order: Go run over where all those enemy troops are, and get them to attack you, then run back here. How would you feel? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

As a side note, I think Horse Archers are best for this purpose. Very useful when they can attack a group of melee units with their backs to your main force. When the enemy melee attacks, they'll naturally skirmish back toward friendly forces, keeping out of melee range. The best bet I've found is to have two different units for this function, with one recovering their nerve while the next one draws the enemy, then switch off for the next run... their morale seems to last longer that way.

[Herodotus]

I experienced this a few times in my early days of playing MTW. I soon came to the conclusion that it was my lame tactics that were causing the rout. And as Selbourne states it makes sense that men should run after being given suicidal orders. Put yourself in the baits shoes, they have no idea of their generals master plan, all they know is they are riding around under the nose of the enemy back and forth getting tired and so who can blame them for running?
The solution is to develop better battle tactics, don't rely on silly drawing out tactics when you can learn to defeat a well positioned enemy (much more satisfying also).

[motorhead]

Well, according to the devs, the Benny Hill code was added to prevent a player from running around, avoiding combat, to win a battle. Fair enough. The side effect of this is you can only try and draw an enemy out a limited number of times.

As for ...The solution is to develop better battle tactics, don't rely on silly drawing out tactics when you can learn to defeat a well positioned enemy (much more satisfying also).
- Isn't drawing out an enemy a valid tactic in disrupting a well positioned enemy? This silly tactic is meat and potatoes for light & fast muslim armies. I can't count how many times my TurcHA have pulled apart enemy formations on both attack and defense. Also, i hear those silly mongols used this tactic with some success for a while.

[Selborne]

Certainly, luring an enemy out so you can fight on ground of your choosing is a valid tactic. What I got from Herodotus' post is that you shouldn't rely on tricks that you know the AI will fall for.

The way I look at it is this: if you wouldn't expect a human opponent to fall for a particular tactic, then it's probably not good to get used to using it when you're fighting the AI. For example, I wouldn't expect that luring an enemy toward my troops massed on a hill would work against an intelligent player; but luring them near near the woods where my hidden ambush force is waiting is a different story.

[motorhead]

Within the context of real world combat, luring enemies out with harassing tactics is valid. If you didn't do something, HA's could refill their quivers and keep killing you all day.

Within the confines of the game, humans have too much foreknowledge of the games constraints. We know units have 28 shots. We know the battlefield is surrounded by an invisible barrier that prevents flanking. We know the most units an enemy can field at any one time is 16 units. Hell, the little flags shout out a unit's valor.

So, what is the point? Don't belittle a tactic as silly when the constraints the game imposes for playability are so inherently silly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[Brutal DLX]

The point is, that one shouldn't try the same tactic with the same unit over and over again. It's just cheap and even in real life battles not very realistic. Therefore giving such a penalty is justified, in my opinion.

As far as I can see, the autorout counter applies to individual units that ran around too often, so if you want to bait, use more than one unit, and let's be honest, if they don't fall for it the first couple of times, then it's about time to give it up and change tactics.

[motorhead]

one shouldn't try the same tactic with the same unit over and over again

i give up. yes, hit and run, harassing attacks, trying to break up an enemy formation by darting in and out is 100% cheating and silly. I accept my just desserts.


edit: parting shot to this thread.
if they don't fall for it the first couple of times, then it's about time to give it up and change tactics.
- fine words if u have a full army. what if it's the 3rd wave of troops, and you're trying to win with what you have left?

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Jan. 14 2004,09:42)]one shouldn't try the same tactic with the same unit over and over again

i give up. yes, hit and run, harassing attacks, trying to break up an enemy formation by darting in and out is 100% cheating and silly. I accept my just desserts.


edit: parting shot to this thread.
if they don't fall for it the first couple of times, then it's about time to give it up and change tactics.
- fine words if u have a full army. what if it's the 3rd wave of troops, and you're trying to win with what you have left?
I said the same unit, not the same unit type. Harassing and hit and run tactics are by no means silly or cheating, just the attempt to use them infinitely with the same unit.

And yes, it's the third wave and and you don't have much left...so?? It's not always possible to win, an ordered retreat is not a shame, or you can go down in a blaze of glory, or you can hit and run until your units are all fatigued and pissed off so they just ride home. :)

[The_Emperor]

I think for RTW they should remove the timer and the Auto-Rout feature (well maybe not for all units, but certainly for horse archers)

Hit and run tactics were key for factions such as the Parthians, and not being able to use them to the fullest is just wrong.

And at any rate a player shouldn't be able to run all over the map Benny Hill Style because of the effects of fatigue. A reduction in the unit speed is inevitable if you are running from the enemy a lot and getting more tired...

As such a penalty of speed should be introduced at higher fatigue levels, instead of a creeping morale penalty.

Cavalry archers would flee under pursuit from the field if they got chased too far from the main force... So maybe their position should be more relative to morale than how many times they have skirmished away from the enemy during the battle.

And of course the morale penalties for being exhausted should also still apply.

[Black Arrow]

There are certainly a couple of historical battles where an ordered retreat is a preferred tactic. presumably if you leapfrog units back so that a new unit takes the oncoming force then you shouldnt get this penalty?

Evading a charge should also be a legit tactic.

[Puzz3D]

Skirmishers which still have ammo do not have their retreat counter incremented when they move away from enemy units. Tests I did on the auto-rout (Benny Hill) counter in STW showed that about 13 consecutive retreats trigged the unrecoverable rout, and you had to be within a certain range of enemy units for the counter to increment. The morale state of the retreating unit wasn't really much of a factor. You can go from steady to unrecoverable rout in one click. The counter did increment when moving away from hidden enemy units that were within range of the effect. The counter is supposedly rest by attacking an enemy unit or possibly just clicking on an enemy unit, but I don't if that is actually the case.

[fruitfly]

The only time I've seen this autorout myself is when I attacked a rebel army of all spearmen with some horse archers and one unit of royal knights. Things were going fine with the spearmen chasing my royal knights around while my HAs turned them to pincushions, but then my RKs auto-routed due to the dismayed by the constant retreat thing.

Maybe the tactics I was using were pretty cheesy, but it seemed like the best way to win that battle quickly without taking heavy casualties due to the troops I had available.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Most of the time when I get autorout is when my opponent and I are circling eachother...not skirmishing at all, so it seems the autorout feature really doesn't work right.

[Ludens]

The first time I got auto-rout was when I was luring away a unit of yari samurai with my Mongol heavy Cavalry, by walking just in front of them, while they were tiring themselves trying to keep up. This went on for about 5 minutes ( ? ). It was pretty lame of me, so I guess I deserved that rout.

[Puzz3D]

Shinano,

The definition of moving away from an enemy unit is that the distance between your unit and the enemy unit increases. You cannot move a unit in a circular motion in this game. If two units are facing each other on the perimeter of an imaginary circle and you move along the tanget of the circle, the distance between the two units immediately increases, so that would increment the auto-rout counter. I think if you follow the path of an incribed polygon to that circle it won't increment the auto-rout counter because the initial direction is shortening the distance even though the distance between the units will start to increase once you cross the perpendicular line from the enemy unit to your path.

I would say the counter is not working right for hidden units. Your unit can have its auto-rout counter incremented by an enemy unit that it doesn't see.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes but if the attacker decides to maneuver his army around behind where the defenders army is then he will always be shortening the distance and when the defender moves they will always be increasing the distance. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif