Money

[Servius]

So, I'm trying the HRE again, and I am broke, again.

As far as I see, HRE is destined for bankrupcy. It has like NINE frontline provinces, not the most productive land, and very few coastal regions.

I almost always race to get great shipping lanes open for trade. I find that if I focus on defense and buidling ships, I'll soon have more money than I could ever spend.

But with the HRE, I'm on a shoestring budget, even though I've got like 60% upgrades in almost every province and i'm still fighting with Spearmen, Archers, a few Feudal MAAs, and no cavalry yet.

How does Germany make money? Focusing on domestic crop and mineral resources is not cutting it, but even trade routes aren't as profitable because HRE has so few coastal provinces with tradable goods.

I have huge support cost upkeep expenses because of all the frontline provinces and am basically broke. What is the best way to make money when playing HRE?

[cutepuppy]

some things I always do when playing HRE:
*)build up farm to +60% in Provence, Lorraine, Burgundy. These are your most valuable farm provinces. Don't loose them to the French (they WILL attack them) or Italians.
*) Don't care about farm upgrades in provinces like Switzerland, Tyrolia, Friesland. It's just a waste of money
*)Take Flanders and/or Sweden if you can (both for trade and farmlands).
*) Maybe you can provoke some rebellions in your inland provinces (very high taxes and no happiness buildings). Make sure you remove all troops out of that province and keep an army available that can defeat the rebellion. (only possible with 2.0 or 2.01, because rebellions are not as big as before with VI). Capturing rebels will give you some extra money.

Playing the HRE is indeed very difficult. At least until 1150 you will have financial problems, sometimes they just carry on until the end of your campaign. I have played campaigns where I was filthy rich and victorious with HRE and other where I had to fight against bankrupcy until the end (and lost).

[ichi]

This problem you describe is the crux for the Germans.

There has been a lot written on this in other threads, but a brief summary of what I try to do:

Make the most of what coastline you have, which is usually going to be in the NW (Friesland, Saxony). Get up in the Baltic and down to the French coast with some ships, and upgrade the trading posts as much as you can.

Max out the farmlands, and get merchants even in inland provinces.

High acumen is, of course, important for Guvs. Constructing a few of the buildings that give titles can help increase the acumen of a few critical Guvs.

The secret is to minimize expenses. That means less cav, more emphasis on infantry. It is very hard to keep a big stack in every border province, so you must move units around to keep the AI wondering.

Minimize use of mercs.

You can make a little money by raiding - take a nearby province (rebels are a good target), and you'll get florins for pillaging. Destroy all buildings (you get florins) then abandon. Rinse and repeat.

The goal is to reduce border provinces. I like to either take the Danes or wipe out the French - expand until I am on the coast in Flanders and Brittany all the way to Pomerania or Prussia.

ichi

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Servius1234 @ Jan. 11 2004,00:49)]So, I'm trying the HRE again, and I am broke, again.

As far as I see, HRE is destined for bankrupcy. It has like NINE frontline provinces, not the most productive land, and very few coastal regions.
Sounds like the story of my life…

I mostly played with HRE, and after a while I simply forgot how much money you can earn with other factions. As HRE, I am always broke, and have gotten used to the "plain" spearmen and archers, with the top of the notch mounted sergeants that represent the highest of my armies for a greater part of the game.

Can you earn money with HRE? Hardly. When I play as Spanish of Italian, I have ridiculous amounts of money, I just can't spend it, but as HRE I go berserk by the time I can build ships and spread them all over the seas. It's like "OK, I get to build a keep and two spearmen, archers and an assassin, and that's it for this turn. I sure hope I'll have this much money available next turn"

One way, aside of radical "move of the nations" strategy, i.e. scrapping all the forces you have and abandon your provinces and attack the neighboring rich provinces, establish there and reclaim your lands later, is the "Drang nach Norden" strategy, you wipe out the Danes ASAP and claim all the north provinces; there is some serious trade income available, than build ships and go after the total domination. If you are fast enough, the Pope won't put the voodoo on you, but then again, aside of chronicle state of bankruptcy as HRE I am also mostly excommed, so it's no big deal really.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

TO get money with HRE and maintain sizeable armies you have got to expand. What I would normally do is ally wiht Hungar and Pope and Italy (unlikely), and then in the second or third turn take out Poland, followed by Denmark.

Poland is relatively rich and you can use it as a base to expand east and Denamrk gives you Sweden, plus you get two forts for free.

In the meantime stay quite on the west, with three large armies in Lorraine, Burgundy nad Tyrol - this keeps the French away for a long time (1120ish) and the Italians also. Hungary is also quite peaceful and if allied usually leaves Bohemia-Austria alone even with small garrisons.

So by 1120 or thereabouts you would have a reasonable financial base and a bit of trade going, so when the French attack you can wipe them out, though almost certainly you will initally loose Provence.

[Math Mathonwy]

my favorite why to play the HRE is to blitzKrieg the Italians asap, after conquering all italian non island provinces, i quickly move my troops along the French border, and wait for the inevitable French invasion.

this requires aggressive military building as fast as possible, and you may have to deal with snobbish lil popes, it may not be the best way to play HRE, but after dealing with all the warfare, youll find you have a very powerful and rich Empire indeed, and it usualle doesnt take that long, im pretty much done with all this agressive conquest in about 15 years r so.

[PseRamesses]

I´ve seen this prob many times - getting enough money to support reasonable army-stacks. The solution is simple:

1. Concentrate your war-machine to SWA, SWI, BAV, FRA and maybee BRA. Build money-making-upgrades vs war-upgrades every other turn. I usualluy only build archers and militia - no cav or spear.
2. In all other provs, incl. BUR, build ONLY money related upgrades. Don´t bother with ports in the beginning.

This method allows me to have 5-7 stacks of archers/ milita armies in 20 years.

3. Take POM, PRU, LIT and LIV with your initial spare troops and build only farms, mines there. Expect to maybee loose LIV and LIT in the future.
4. When the money comes in only build cavalry units to complement your arch/ militia stacks. This will make you about 2 new stacks in a couple of years. Soon you´ll have around 10 stacks to play a nice game, both offensively as defensively.

Concentrate making peace with France, Denmark and Poland which leaves the Italians and Hungarians for you to smite. Since a lot of provs in Italy is a part of your GA´s (if you don´t play domination) this is a sound tactic.
It´s easy to play HRE but you have to have a clear structure how to go about doing things and prioritize. The main prob with HRE is cash-flow and about 10 border provinces - you want to protect all provs with your armies but you can´t afford it, right?
With the above method you can protect around 7 provs directly and the rest indirectly within 15-20 years and I have NEVER been attacked before 15 years into the game.

Lucky ducky

[Basileus]

Quote[/b] (cutepuppy @ Jan. 11 2004,02:10)]some things I always do when playing HRE:
*)build up farm to +60% in Provence, Lorraine, Burgundy. These are your most valuable farm provinces. Don't loose them to the French (they WILL attack them) or Italians.
*) Don't care about farm upgrades in provinces like Switzerland, Tyrolia, Friesland. It's just a waste of money
*)Take Flanders and/or Sweden if you can (both for trade and farmlands).
*) Maybe you can provoke some rebellions in your inland provinces (very high taxes and no happiness buildings). Make sure you remove all troops out of that province and keep an army available that can defeat the rebellion. (only possible with 2.0 or 2.01, because rebellions are not as big as before with VI). Capturing rebels will give you some extra money.

Playing the HRE is indeed very difficult. At least until 1150 you will have financial problems, sometimes they just carry on until the end of your campaign. I have played campaigns where I was filthy rich and victorious with HRE and other where I had to fight against bankrupcy until the end (and lost).
very nice, thats the way i play them aswell besides the rebell thing, works preety well..

dont get ships for trade with HRE in the begining get some ships though mostly to protect your coast lines.

[Servius]

yeah, I'm too defensive I think. I have a uniform army in every frontline province, consisting of 4 spear, 2 archer, 2-3 sword. Hence, I am broke. I think I have an annual profit of 92 florin atm.

I'm thinking of hitting Denmark first, as it will only increases my frontline by 1 province, and only for a little while until I grab and hold all of scandinavia. I'll move from Friesland to Flanders, which garners me one of the best Euro provinces and doesn't increase my frontline at all. Maybe east then till I have Prussia, Poland, Hungary, and back to Austria. Then Venice and the rest of northern Italy. Then France. That's the idea at least.

God I wish I had some Hobilars. Just thinking of all the routers I could have killed and executed with just a few horses...

[cutepuppy]

Quote[/b] (Servius1234 @ Jan. 11 2004,19:33)]God I wish I had some Hobilars. Just thinking of all the routers I could have killed and executed with just a few horses...
Mounted X-bows are better (if you can afford them, of course). You'll need a horse breeder for them. They are faster and can kill from long range, almost without being captured. I've killed/captured units of royal knights with them.

[danielrech]

Quote[/b] (Pyrrhus @ Jan. 11 2004,00:09)]my favorite why to play the HRE is to blitzKrieg the Italians asap, after conquering all italian non island provinces...
Pyrrhus this is my favorite strategy as well... I always manage to get a good income with the HRE (not outstanding though) using it. Venice is great for high income, of course.

But I play in 'normal' level (please don't call me a chicken http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). Then maybe in 'hard' it is much more uh... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif hard to achieve good income...

[Brutal DLX]

You can get by by not expanding at first, but if you want to improve your finances cosiderably, then take on the Italians or Danes early as described earlier, although the Italian lands are richer and you get money out of it sooner, whereas you have to develop trading and shipping in Denmark and Sweden first.
On the other hand, conquering Denmark gives you access to some good Viking units in VI.
If you don't expand, you have to take chances in some provinces and not garrison them with more than 160 men. You should keep bigger garrisons in Burgundy, Bohemia, Saxony and Franconia and spend your money on upgrading farming and mining asap. Build military installations in Switzerland, Swabia, Franconia and Brandenburg first. Just make sure you have 3 well rounded stacks of spears,archers and militia sarges and add some cav as soon as possible. These armies, if used correctly, will allow you to repulse any attack.
Alliances are also a good way to minimise the number of your opponents. Poland and Denmark are usually not aggressive early on, but France must be watched if they are winning against the English, which happens more often than not. So it's good to ally with the English and take some nice provinces like Champagne, Flanders and Toulouse should a war erupt.
Generally, it's not good and even risky to focus on trading early on with the HRE, wait until your lands are more secured/developed and other nations have cosntructed more ports.

[CeeBod]

Personally I always go for attacking the Danes first as the HRE - their entire army is usually small and mostly made up of the heirs' royal knights - against which a cheap (but larger&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif army of spears, archers, and urban militia can do very well. Taking Denmark usually gives your coffers a boost, and long term it gives access to Sweden and Norway without expanding your borders, the very cool Viking units, and the possibility of a decent trade empire - eventually
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (Pyrrhus @ Jan. 11 2004,04:09)]my favorite why to play the HRE is to blitzKrieg the Italians asap, after conquering all italian non island provinces, i quickly move my troops along the French border, and wait for the inevitable French invasion.
This is how I do it. I try not to bother the Pope though. Venice opens the door to trade in the Med and becomes the capital of the Empire.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Jan. 11 2004,02:17)]This problem you describe is the crux for the Germans.
Amen. Broke and surrounded by richer enemies is tough.

[Math Mathonwy]

Quote[/b] (Nelson @ Jan. 12 2004,07:05)]
Quote[/b] (Pyrrhus @ Jan. 11 2004,04:09)]my favorite why to play the HRE is to blitzKrieg the Italians asap, after conquering all italian non island provinces, i quickly move my troops along the French border, and wait for the inevitable French invasion.
This is how I do it. I try not to bother the Pope though. Venice opens the door to trade in the Med and becomes the capital of the Empire.
yeah me2, but if that bugger excomunicates me, and im already that close then i go ahead and take him out, then retreat and let the provinces rebel.

[LordKhaine]

Strike up another fan of the Italian path. Build up a bit for a few years, and then strike south hard and fast. The Italian provinces provide very good income if you have a fleet. If you need more money you can just take the south of italy as well. Just make sure your ships reach to the holy lands, the mass of ports there will give you a ton of trade income. Plus you can always launch a crusade by sea to seize those lands later...

The time I played as Germany, money wasn't my problem, a lack of friends was. I don't recall a single aliance during that entire game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-tongue2.gif

[PseRamesses]

What´s the prob guys?

Started a new GA-game as early-HRE yesterday. I´ve choosen to play defesively to concentrate on buildings and upgrades and defensive armies.
It´s now 1132 AD, some 40 years into the game, and I make a 4500 fl. profit each year and have around 47000 in my coffers. All my farmlands are upgraded to 60%, mines to complex and have keeps in every province. My armies consists of only archers and militia BUT I have 10 stacks so I am quite capable to defend my realm.
I took Pomerania and Prussia right from the start and in 1120 the Italians attacked me and got ex-commed so I moved in and took Venice, Milan, Genoa and Tuscany since some of the Italian provs are in my GA-goals.
My military upgrades now let´s me build in SWA, SWI, FRA, BAV and BUR at a level of Man at arms and Feudal sergants so I´m gonna replace all my militia and cut down archers from 8 to 6 in each stack and put all thoose obsolete units into a massive 4-5 stack crusade to Palestine, he he Holy fatheeer heeere weee cooome

[Brutal DLX]

It's not exactly defensive to conquer new provinces, is it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
But of course, when you follow your GA goals you won't have financial problems as discussed above. Try and play truly defensive and not take any province until High era. That's good fun.

[NewJeffCT]

My strategy as the HRE was to invade Prussia & Pomerania ASAP to get the trade goods. I then quickly invaded Denmark and killed them in 1 year before the Pope could Ex-Comm me. From there, I move north to Sweden with mounted crossbows. Controlling Denmark, Sweden and Norway, I thought, was vital. They have iron in Sweden, as well as 7 trade goods between the 3 provinces. The farmland is good in Sweden and pretty good in Denmark as well.

When it looked like France was going to beat the English, I then attacked the French in Toulouse and took it over. The French had to divert some of their army to attack me and defend their borders from me, and it allowed the English to gain the upper hand. As the English are wiping out the French, pick up the scraps and see if you can grab Flanders in the process.

If you can control Denmark, Sweden and Norway early, it is the key, I think. Sweden with just a port, fort and trading post can make you a lot of money once you start cranking out barques and filling up the seas.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Quote[/b] ]Money...Get away...

Get a good job with more pay and you're Ok...

Money...It's a gas...

Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash...

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Jan. 13 2004,05:32)]It's not exactly defensive to conquer new provinces, is it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
But of course, when you follow your GA goals you won't have financial problems as discussed above. Try and play truly defensive and not take any province until High era. That's good fun.
By defensive I meant that I wouldn´t consider strating a war and the Italian provinces are in HRE´s GA-goals so I have to take them right?
So it´s now 1173 AD and I have arond 100.000 fl, took Papal States and Naples from the ex-commed Sicilians. And I now have a well balanced stack in each of my border-provinces, around 15-16.